With the current situation (FFB double-dipping), aslong as your MAIN NUKE is capped, (3% miss chance on pyro/Lb/scorch can be a huge problem), just mashing your FFB macro will net you some dps, but nothing to impressive.



On a different note..
I know how everybody thrives for higher spell damage..... but with FFB, shouldn't the formula be " Hit > Crit > Dam > Haste " ? I know my gemming doesn't agree with Manly's, but I've been seeing some good numbers, and have no complaints.

You're really not going to actually see a measurable difference in your dps just by having slightly more/less optimal gems (assuming the choices aren't completely off-track), however there is absolutely no reason to gem sub-optimally.

Well, to be honest, a formula involves numbers. Your pecking-order list of inequalities has no numbers, so while it could tell us something, it doesn't tell us very much.

That is, I caution against trying to summarize stat relationships with the kind of priority list you suggested. The reason is that it gets taken out of context, with the level of superiority of each stat over the next distorted or assumed to be absolute regardless of quantities.

On the flip side, I understand why we often don't give numbers to such pecking orders: because the exact values fluctuate greatly with gear.

That said, the various tools that are out there generally have some way to find out stat equivalences. For example, I notice Zaldinar's TCoM says your pecking order (for you personally, with your gear) is this: spell power > hit > haste > crit.

Granted, spell power blew everything out of the water, while haste was only barely over crit, but that just goes to show how much a bad, bad, bad rating conversion can penalize a stat (edit: as well as how seriously stacking a stat can devalue it). And this is point-for-point. Gem equivalences would push everything more towards spell power.

Really, the scaling from 70 to 80 penalized ratings a lot more than it penalized spell power, which is why spell power often shows up as the top stat now.

Gear-wise, Hit is better when a FFB mage has 11% or more crit chance. But that is 1 point of Hit versus 1 point of Crit. I am missing the part where what is the typical ratio of Hit to Crit that is given from gear. If gear typically grants more crit at a time than hit, then the numbers change.

Rawr will not just give you those numbers, but will calculate them based on your actual gear, raid buffs and fight settings.

This is a point many people I talk to raise, usually when explaining why Hit was (classically) preferable to Crit.

Hit and Crit exist on gear in the form of their ratings, as you know. 1% Hit (below cap) and 1% Crit were an equivalent increase in DPS (I confess I'm not actually certain if this is still the case given the ridiculous Crit Bonus on FFB) but getting 1% Crit (from the ratings) cost practically twice the item budget of 1% hit, and so Hit was the preferred stat for 'bang for buck.' So far in this expansion, most of the mages I'm ecountering are using a few pieces stacked with Hit ([Mark of the War Prisoner] is an example that pops up a lot) to reach the cap. For now, check with Rawr to see how the ratings are balanced at your gear level to decide which items to pick up, and bear in mind the following:

1) We're in the first tier of WotLK raiding - one or two items are beautifully itemised, most aren't.

2) The spread of stats you're hunting for at any given time are dependent on both your spec, and your current gear.

3) Bearing in mind point 1, it was rather hard to put together a hit capped set with healthy spell damage and a respectable crit rate back in T4, without even considering haste which was a curiosity on the horizon back then.

As new content arrives and brings new gear, our options will naturally expand, but for now just use Rawr to identify which ratings will translate to your best gain in DPS, and tailor your gear choices accordingly.

I have seen on a number of places that speed pots are superior. Why not run a simulation including the speed pot and make a comparison?

Well, I'm not sure if I can calculate it this way, but I'll give it a try: Destruction potion gives you 120+dmg and 2% crit vs. 500+haste from a speed potion. 2% crit rating equivalents to ~92+ critical strike rating, just as ~1.5+ critical strike rating equivalents to 1+dmg. If you look at a destruction potion this way, you gain a 181+dmg (120+61) buff from it whereas a speed potion will give you a 333+dmg buff (assuming ~1.5+ crit = ~1.5+ haste = 1+ dmg).
On top of that you can maybe sqeeze in an extra trinketed cast if you use a speed potion.

As I said I don't think that you can compare both potions this simple but a speed potion should always be the better choice unless your casts would end up being limited by the gcd.

Comparing the Speed and Destruction pots, Destruction will provide at most 5% dps increase if you are FFB spec. I say half that for anything else. Speed will boost dps by 15%. The only difference is Speed will not help DPM while Destruction will.

Seems good. Would you mind posting some math or screenshots of testing on PTR or live server? Also, with regard to DPM, it would seem that DPM is a long-term issue (damage per total mana expended over the life of a "fight segment," where you can chain-cast. In the case of the Speed/Destro pot, since it's only one (or two if you pop one immediately before combat) and lasts only 10 seconds, the affect to overall DPM should be negligible, even in a major burn cycle like AP/IV/ABxn spam (if that's your spec). For any FFB spec, practically speaking, you should never miss the mana expended in trade for the damage.

I guess the other thing that should be said is that obviously there is a scaling matter. The 2% crit will scale, while the fixed dmg will not scale. And, the haste scales much better than crit in FFB spec with better gear.

Does anyone know if the "Deep Freeze" Spell works on the Endboss from Azjol´Nerub ?

:P

You learned a spell to freeze Johnny Depp? You, sir, just hit a goldmine and should utilize this spell often!

Kidding aside, let's make this simple: Deep Freeze can be cast on bosses under the effects of Fingers of Frost, but they are immune to all aspects of the spell since it is a stun/freeze condition, not a damage spell. So it makes about as much sense as cating Frost Nova on the boss: yes, the spell works on the boss, and the [pittance] damage happens. The reason you WOULD want to cast it, the root/freeze, does not occur because the boss is immune to said mechanic.

I've been running rawr to compare FFB and Fireball+TTW builds for 3.0.8 and the dps seems to be almost identical.

Assuming gear upgrades, will fireball overpower frostfirebolt next patch or will frostfire pull itself back ahead once we get some more spellpower?

I'm getting reports of 4550 DPS with [18-53-0]Fireball+TTW (glyphed for fireball/scorch/molten armor) and 4541 DPS with [0-53-18]Frostfire (glyphed for FFB/scorch/molten armor) (MF set to .15, Snare time set to 1.0, unlimited mana off, gear swap for more hit with the fireball build).

Purely for curiosity's sake, I ran arcane through as well. [57-3-11] Arcane looks rather poor (even if another mage keeps up scorch) -- 3885 dps. (Glyphed Molten/Blast/Power). This one however could be due to bad calculations on my end and/or rawr v2.1.4 not being 'fully' updated for the 3.0.8 changes (i.e. precision and AB)

I have an Excel spreadsheet I do my math on, and one of my saved ones is a chart to compare the improvements of an additional % increase in Hit, and Crit, based on what the other stat is.

The typical formula I use to comparing DPS is (1+(Chance to Crit * Crit Bonus Damage Modifier))*Chance to Hit. The 1 represents the base damage of 100%. The Crit Bonus Damage Modifier of FFB at max is an additional 215%. A 1% increase in Crit rate will boost damage possibility by 2.15%. Since Destruction Potion increases Crit Chance by 2%, this is a 4.3% boost to damage. As for Fireball, it has a Crit Damage Bonus of 145% at best, which yields 2.9% DPS increase from 2% additional Crit Chance.

I am not considering the 120 spellpower because of how saturated Spell power is at level 80 versus level 70, and it does not scale except in higher gear has more of it.

As for the Speed Potion, it gives 500 haste. At lvl 80, it takes 32.79 Haste Rating to increase casting speed by 1%. If you cast 1% faster, you get 1% more Damage per Second. Well, (500/32.79) is around 15.24% casting speed increase.

On a side note, look at the required levels to use the two potions. Potion of Speed requires you to be level 70 to use. Destruction Potion requires you to be level 60. In such, the Destruction Potion is suppose to be weaker in effect.

I only have numbers and calculations for this; nothing to test and prove it.

Something you need to make sure you take into account is the linear nature of these stats: that is, hit, crit, haste, and spell power are (usually) linear DPS increases, and their respective terms in the DPS formula multiply each other. This means that stacking one stat increases the effective value of the others.

This is why 1% haste is 1% DPS only if you have 0% haste to begin with, for example.

And yet, ironically, by ignoring spell power you're ignoring something that's at least as significant as the crit on the destruction potion.

You are all too right. The issue with the scaling on crit and haste (assuming being hit capped) is that they are obviously dependent on spell power. But (and this is a big but) the higher your spell power, the less additional spell power increases affect overall DPS. It would be *totally different* if they had a "5% increase to spell power" potion that scaled perfectly with your equipment (Blizzard, we know you would consider this way too OP I guess). Yet, haste kind of works that way. 500 haste =~ 16% faster cast rate, no matter how much spell damage you have.

Is it best to use all my cooldowns at the same time in a macro (Icy Veins, Combustion, Trinket) or to use them separately? Seeing as how using them at the start of a fight gives you the chance of being able to use them all at the end, which is best?

It is better to use them in sequence as to avoid waiting on the GCD, and all at once.

This is a bad order:
Mirror Image - Combustion - Trinket.. as your combustion will have to wait for the GCD

It depends on your scenario whether to use your cooldowns or not.. but for your post I am assuming boss fights.

Generally it is best to first get your crit stack up and living bomb, then use all your cooldowns (I use Combustion -> Icy Veins -> (Trinket if applicable) --> Mirror Image).. Your mirror image gets your buff from your trinkets, and it's best to have your crits and haste working with your trinkets; so stack your trinkets as much as possible.

And you are right to say using them at the beginning is best, as it allows a possible second time use depending on your fight; and if you are frost spec'd a 2nd opportunity to use WE and Ice Veins again.

a short and simple question about the stacking of slowing effects.

do they stack? in which order? or is only the most effective slowing effect taken?

is there any difference for movement- casting- attackspeed?

ty in advance

Ok, lets add spellpower then. If you are doing 4K Fireball or Frostfire Bolt and several talents to boost the damage, you are overall not getting more DPS increase than 9%. I am giving this estimate due to possible differences.

Trying to compare the change in haste, I found that Potion of Speed depends on your spell rotation. If you are just spamming Fireball or FFB with normal haste, your haste needs to be in the right range or you may not get an extra spell cast and just wasted the potion. There are ranges like 1% to 4% and 21% to 24% if you just spam a 3 second base casting time spell for the entire duration and don't get an extra cast. Otherwise, your haste has to be somewhat over than 100% to get a solid boost from Destruction Potion over Potion of Speed.

This misapprehension that X quantity of haste is useless unless it allows you to squeeze an extra cast into an arbitrary period of time (most commonly the duration of a trinket, or IV) really needs to stop.

While it would be great if you actually could get that extra trinketed cast off, regardless haste will allow you to finish casting any given sequence or rotation quicker - so you can start it again. The Skull of Gul'dan was still worth using when they stopped it stacking with HSH, simply because more time gives you more options and casting opportunities. Aside from all that, there are plenty of situations where you just want something dead right now (Shadron springs to mind) and a 15% haste boost can certainly come in handy.

Edit - yes, exactly as Galzohar says. I feel rather silly for omitting that, since it's actually the crux of the point.

Much more importantly, while a certain amount of haste might not give you an extra cast within a given timeframe, you also can't predict the length of that timeframe accurately enough anyway. So on average 5% haste will result in 5% more casts on a fight of random duration.