LBXZero

I did take into account that the last spell, even if haste wears out, will still be at same casting speed. But you will have to admit the mathematical analogy that when dividing 63 passengers into 2 buses evenly, you can't cut the last human in half.

Thus if I don't get an extra spell in the duration, I can still get an extra spell across the extended time period, but that will be the maximum effect of limited duration boosts.

You can say in the duration of a boss fight you could cast 23.4 Fireballs, but really you only did 23 fireballs because the .4 fireball does no damage. In the best, a haste potion anytime during the fight could have completed that last fireball, but then the DPS boost it gave would be 4.1% across the entire fight.

 

galzohar

Just like I said, you don't know if the fight duration is going to be 300 seconds, 301 seconds or even 310 (especially when you consider that it's actually divided into casting intervals separated by movement), therefore you average. And on average, when the fight duration is >> the casting time of 1 spell, 1% haste will let you cast 1% more spells.

On a side note, if you have no idea at all how long the fight (or casting intervals) is going to be, then "1% haste will on average allow casting 1% more spells" will be also correct for durations that aren't >> the casting time (for example, a trash mob that lives like 5-20s).

 

Duravi

This is certainly true but there is a similar concept that is actually valid. Assuming you use an active use trinket or wait until a +dmg proc trinket (such as sun-dial) procs to use your c/ds around, there will be a spike in the value of haste at some number that allows for one more cast during c/d stacking time. Unlike fight duration which is variable within some range and varies from fight to fight, these other effects are controllable and for exact durations.

 

LBXZero

So you are saying that regardless of the fight being 20 seconds or 15 minutes, a temporary boost in haste is a waste of time.

If the fight is too short, you could have let the fight go for another 5 seconds and saved the potion or cooldown. If the fight is too long, the damage boost will be so small that it was not worth it. If the fight was just the right length, you will never know until it is over.

Lets use an average then. Lets say we get a straight 25% dps boost from a 15 second potion. The fight is 30 seconds long and I start with the potion. The potion boost the dps for that fight by 12.5%. A 60 second fight, 6.25%. A 300 second fight, 1.25%.

What if I didn't use the potion? The 30 second fight would take 34 seconds. Really on all fights, it shorten the fight by 3.75 seconds. For multiple uses, it would be 3.75 seconds less for each 25% dps boost in 15 seconds. I imagine that lesser boosts only reduce the time even less.

Overall, the potion was more effective in shorter fights to boost overall dps. Really, the potions are a waste to use to boost primary dps but more useful to stack with other short duration effects just to enhance those.

This is more or less my argument with the utility of Icy Veins, which based on what we are discussing is a maximum of a 2.22% dps boost every 3 minutes (boost being better if duration is shorter than 3 minutes), or shortens the fight 4 seconds each time used.

In ending this debate, these short duration boosts are not for increasing overall dps but are for strategic uses, for example the Curator fight in Karazhan. Thus you no longer care about the dps boost 15 seconds gave the entire fight but for the phase that needed the boost. Then we are back at which potion gives the best boost for its duration. (Great how an argument can make a full circle.)

 

Kaymar

Can anyone help me figure out why I am consistently out-DPS'd by the other mage in our raids? Here is the latest WWS (actually WMO) parse, including Patchwerk:

WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

I have been diligently reading & following the information in these forums. My hit is nearly capped, and I'm trying to upgrade all my gear to the best-in-slot pieces listed in Enthorn's sig. This other mage has much less hit than me (notice the misses during Patchwerk) and, as far as I can see, comparable gear. Yet, in fight after fight, I am always the second mage (out of two) on the damage chart.

My spell rotation is as follows:
Scorch x 2 (w/glyph, stacks to 5)
Living Bomb
Macro (pops clones, IV, Combustion, and casts first FFB)
FFB x 4
Living Bomb refresh
FFB x 3
Scorch refresh

After that, it's the standard FFB-spam with Scorch and LB refreshes, launching HS Pyro whenever it procs. If LB is about to expire when HS procs, I wait until after I refresh the LB to launch the Pyro. I use NeedToKnow to track all my buffs/debuffs, so I almost never miss an HS proc, and my LB gets refreshed almost immediately.

If you look at the other fights from that same night, the only time I beat the other mage is when they died and I didn't. If we both stay alive, I am ALWAYS crushed on the meters. The Patchwerk fight is simply the best illustration of this fact.

So, where is the issue? Is it gear? Spell rotation? Talent build? Or, is this mage simply a better player than I? I realize I haven't given a complete picture, but can anyone give me an idea of at least where the problem lies? And, more importantly, is there anything I can do to improve?

Thanks in advance for any advice you may give.

 

Pheroz

2 things:

1. He used his cooldowns twice to your once on the patchwerk fight. (Icy veins, Mirror Image, Combustion) - he got an extra use out of them and you didn't.

2. Your using a helm without a meta gem. Level 70 season 1 helm would be an upgrade for you, becuase it has a meta socket. 3% increased critcal damage is THAT GOOD.

 

Enthorn

Just a quick note, a "best in slot" item list cannot be reliably followed. Each piece of gear is dependent, more or less, on the items around it. While it's entertaining to approach a theoretical best set, it's impractical, due to the nature of items dropping. The point being, you'd be selling yourself short if you passed up on one item in order to wait out for another. We're talking about a minute difference in DPS in the large scheme of things.

Naturally, if you're feeling generous, then by all means pass on [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]. But if I were you, I would load up my character in Rawr before a run, and look at what immediate upgrades are. Don't bother running optimizer, you can probably do the math in your head. Think about the weight of stat points and how they are allocated on items. Dying Curse may have an absurd amount of hit on it, but that's only if you you're well into the ilevel 213 items. In all ilevel 200 gear, you may have trouble getting 14% hit from gear (that is, taking into account the next patch and its Elemental Precision fix). But at ilevel 213, hit on gear is plentiful. Does that mean you should pass on Dying Curse in hopes a better item drops in the next month? Probably not.

 

Duravi

Just wanted to add, the best in slot list basically tries to get to hit cap at the least cost to the other dmg stats and also does not even use 4 pc t7 (it only uses gloves and shoulders). For most people as they gear up right now 4pc t7 will probably be better than the alternatives they have and until you get enough hit from some of those specific items (those legs mentioned above are one of them and actually a best in slot item, may want to correct that) that obtain it with small cost to the other dmg stats you will have items that because they are still using their hit end up being better for you than the best in slot. As mentioned above rawr is definitely the way to go, but also it will serve you to know what your ultimate best in slot items are since in the end they will be what you are using.

Even after this in the optimal gear set there are some items that are too close to call because even the slight boosts from professions will swing them one way or the other (i.e. sun-dial vs. embrace of the spider, gothic's cowl vs hood of rationality)

 

Bedrayne

Duravi, what list are you using for best in slot? I am curious since you state that BIS doesn't use 4t7 but Enhorn's list does for both FFB and FB? Having an alternate target it drops don't fall right would be nice.

 

Kaymar

Thanks to all for the input. It's encouraging to know that I have avenues to pursue, and you've given me a good idea of what steps I need to take. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Duravi

Head [Gothik's Cowl]
Neck [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power]
Shoulders [Valorous Frostfire Shoulderpads]
Chest [Gown of the Spell-Weaver]
Waist [Leash of Heedless Magic]
Legs [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]
Feet [Sandals of Crimson Fury]
Wrist [Unsullied Cuffs]
Hands [Valorous Frostfire Gloves]
Finger1 [Signet of the Kirin Tor]
Finger2 [Signet of Manifested Pain]
Trinket1 [Sundial of the Exiled]
Trinket2 [Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
Back [Pennant Cloak]
MainHand [The Turning Tide]
OffHand [Surplus Limb]
Ranged [Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians]

Does not count in professions, an item or two may change based on those. Includes enchants and proper gemming (for a non-jc). Full raid buffs assumed.

Score: 5842.26
Dps: 5839.94

 

LBXZero

Besides that the RNG may have favored the other mage, I noticed he\she was not casting Scorch as much as you were. Other stuff of note, some more Spellpower and a little more crit chance can have its affects, but your trinkets were better.

Some thoughts I have, did you use elixirs/flasks, weapon potion, and buffing food? Did the other mage? That can make a bigger gap in Spellpower if he did and you weren't.

Next, did you start your next cast about .5 seconds before the current spell cast finishes? Do you have Quartz?

 

Enthorn

Duravi, I don't understand your list. Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster are not best in slot if you actually run the optimizer and sort through items. There are two cases where you drop an item from the frostfire set. In a 0.53.18 build, you drop the helm for Gothik's Cowl. In an 18.53.0 build, you drop the chest piece for Heigan's Putrid Vestments. These are the two items with spirit on them. You are losing crit/haste/hit for spirit.

The same is true for Unsullied Cuffs. I realize the socket is there, which pushes up the spell power, but you are still gearing for spirit there, which you don't need. You're taking spirit and haste for a small spell power increase. Bindings of the Expansive Mind gives you crit and hit, which you need, because you wouldn't be using the Wanton Spellcaster Leggings.

In fact, your list of items doesn't even give the T7 4-piece bonus. I decided to try things out myself with the list. I put in every item, put the enchants on, got the raid buffs set up, and I'm coming out with 5711 DPS. Something isn't right.

As for professions, why bother listing DPS if you're going to exclude one profession, but not list the professions? Practically every set assumes enchanting profession and the 38 spell power to rings. Because if you're not going to assume jewelcrafting, then there's DPS elsewhere (wrists, shoulders, blacksmithing).

Your list simply doesn't seem accurate. I even tried running Rawr without Jewelcrafting. It suggests using Unsullied Cuffs, Leash of Heedless Magic, and Dying Curse. This is the problem with relying on the optimizer though. It is a DPS increase to switch out Unsullied Cuffs for Bindings of the Expansive Mind, Leash of Heedless Magic for Cincture of Polarity, and Dying Curse for Sundial of the Exiled. Even so, switching to Wanton Spellcaster leggings signficantly drops your DPS. You end up gaining far too much hit rating, and your DPS never recovers.

 

Duravi

Optimizer in most cases is wrong. What matters the most is the actual dps value your getting for the gear set. I did make a mistake on the dps number though, I was including JC profession and had 3x runed dragon's eyes socketed, try taking that into acount and running your numbers again, include enchanting as well if you wish it actually doesnt change any of the actual items the dps just goes up slightly. Also why bring up 18.53.0? That is not a viable spec...

When you are already hit capped no its not and none of the items you are suggesting are the optimal way to get to the hit cap.

If you can find a gear setup that gives higher dps than that by all means let me know. There is a reason the list does not include the 4pc t7 bonus, namely I couldn't find a set that DOES include it and has higher dps. Here are the dmg stat values from rawr including JC/enchanting if this helps:

Crit Rate: 42.56%
522 Crit Rating

Hit Rate: 14.25%
295 Hit Rating

Casting Speed: 1.270114
569 Haste Rating

Fire Damage: 2802

Dps: 5897.15

rawr xml file text: general pastebin - Optimal Gear - post number 1296277

 

Zephriel

Enthorn is looking ahead to 3.0.8, when the changes to TtW functionality will allow 18/53/0 deep fire to compete with 0/53/18 frostfire for top DPS (and possibly surpass it, although DPM is another matter entirely).

Furthermore, he already provided a link to optimized gearsets in his signature (which he and I were both able to test, with nearly identical results). 4T7 sets indeed come out on top by a small margin, for both frostfire and deep fire. The discrepancy in your results is likely due to using a different set of buffs and conditions. Did you test Enthorn's linked frostfire gear set to see if it exceeds 5897.15 with your buff/raid conditions in Rawr?

For reference, I tested your gearset in Rawr and came out with a ~31 DPS loss compared to the 4T7 set.

 

Duravi

I included the xml text so the other rawr parameters are checkable. Apologies for the oversight on your list in the sig, just checked your gear setup and I come out with (assuming JC/enchanting):

Dps: 5916.13

So it does indeed come out ahead by ~20 dps. I think it's pretty interesting how two sets of end-game raiding gear that differ in 5 items still end up so close. In preparation for future upgrades I really think the setup without 4pc would be ideal but that's just speculation until we see some loot tables for ulduar I guess. Thanks for the correction!

 

Saffron

I've been a bit curious about Rawr for a while, since it always seem to suggest some weird item choices. Like my boots,


[Sandals of Crimson Fury]

ranked below

[Sullen Cloth Boots] and [Slippers of the Holy Light]

I assume it's because of the spirit on them, but what does spirit have to do with anything but arcane?

 

Pheroz

Read the thread on rawr. It's possible the fight conditions you have set have you going OOM, in which case Rawr my be prioritizing the spirit highly.

 

Furymagi

Simple question; How much int per spell crit, Rawr says [Luminous Monarch Topaz] is better than [Potent Monarch Topaz]. Was just wondering why; I know Int is multiplied by Kings and such, but is it really better than pure crit strike rating? (unbuffed it says this) for my [Plush Sash of Guzbah] and possibly other items aswell.

 

Pheroz

Read the post above yours and replace the word "spirit" with the word "intellect".

Intellect is not better for DPS then crit rating, provided you will not run OOM.

 

Furymagi

Ohh alright, as I based my Rawr off unbuffed it says int, but during fights im going to have replenishment and such so I wont go oom. I just added in replenishment to Rawr and the crit one went above the int one. Thanks for your help, I don't fully understand Rawr yet.

 

LBXZero

Hey, I have a question from the WoW forums. Does Ignite have a damage cap?

If you want something to test this, go full Scorch spec and take on the boss that has the increased critical hit chance. You should have 100% crit chance I suspect, and just non-stop spam Scorch until the boss reaches 10% to 20% health.

With Scorch, Ignite should never tick.

Also, what is the effective DPM and DPS of the best Scorch spec?

 

◊ manly

Ignite damage cap is the same as any other damage cap; about 2^28 (or 2^27, dont recall exactly).

In any case, a scorch spec is a bad idea no matter how you try to put it.

EDIT: actually, i went ahead and, for fun, used my spreadsheet on the ffb thread and used a standard 0/53/18 build to simulate what you would get from scorch spam using a 20/51/0 derivative aimed at scorch spam to proc many hot streak.

Using a near-optimal situation with near optimal gear, 0/53/18 gets
ffb: 4500 dps
lb: 6650 dps
hot streak pyro (with no dots): 8500 dps
scorch: 3000 dps

Using those numbers but translating them into a 20/51/0 derivative, the gains for scorch are:
+6% damage on scorch from 3/3 spell impact
+3% crit from focus magic
0% from torment the weak, since it does not affects scorch

Will scorch spam with 6% more damage and 3% more crit be able to make scorch jump from 3000 dps into 4500 dps ? I will leave that as an exercise to the reader to figure this out.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

cyimben

No , actually scorch has %4 more crit than ffb (+%6 from incineration -%2 from glyph) and plus focus magic %3 it has %7 more crit , it is still not viable but there will be higher chance to proc HS on scorch specs , that's why pepole thinks it can be good. You can't make 3000 a 4500 with extra %7 crit and %4 dmg but if you can have more pyros it means too many 8500s from HS . It is fun but as i said it is not better.

 

Celani

I was browsing around the site and something hit me. Anyone looking to improve their play should be interested in macros, addons, and UI that help to improve performance, but the information is so scattered throughout various threads (and even forums with regards to UI) that it is nigh inaccessible to the average visitor. I just spent an hour browsing and searching and got a few bits and pieces that took a long time to get and weren't worth much. Perhaps it is time to start a thread to better present this information here in the mage forums? What I mean is, a thread discussing:

•DPS macros (and possibly efficient keybind layouts)
•Mage/DPS addons and Q/A for people needing help setting them up
•UI discussion and specifically help with integrating mage specific addons (scorchio, quartz, decursive) with custom UIs.

I'd start one myself, but I don't feel I'm qualified to discuss the UI aspect of the proposal as that is where I actually need some help myself. Does anyone think this would be a worthwhile topic for the mage forums, and further, can anyone who feels comfortable with the entire topic think about handling it?