Meghane

I just like doing things for myself sometimes, which means knowing the number to do the math. Besides, I'm not simply trying to find my dps or anything here, which is the main thing simulators are for. I'm just testing functionality and damage and seeing if they fit the expected models, outcomes, formulas etc and doing it for myself so I don't just take someone else's word for it. This is how you determine the behavior simulators simulate and how you find bugs anyway, on which a simulator may be based if you never actually test it...just because a simulator calculates some aspect of the game one way doesn't automatically mean in-game WoW is doing it that way.

That isn't to say though that simulators aren't good. I know they are generally very sound and trustworthy and that those who make them put a lot of work into making sure they are accurate.

 

LBXZero

Just to let you know, I have not had a Fire Blast cause an Ignite Munch. The only Ignite Munch I had was casting an HS Pyroblast right before my client reports Fireball finished casting.

Ignite is only updated by the Ignite procs created after a successful fire spell critical that can produce one. If two Ignite procs are created close to each other, the hardware can cause both to receive the same initial info from the current Ignite debuff and refresh it at the same time, causing the first one to write back to RAM to be overwritten by the second one written back to RAM.

Overall, Ignite Munching is not 100% repeatable. In many cases, Ignite is applied properly. It is all on how the hardware handles the code.

Inoko, remember the reply from deadlyice on page 5 of the General Mage Discussion thread? He was trying to show mages with some of the best gear not being high on the damage meters for some boss fights. If you look at the Loatheb fight in there, one mage's damage report showed nearly no loss in Ignite damage while the other had nearly a 20% loss in Ignite damage, and neither used Scorch as much as pyroblast. They only used Scorch to refresh its debuff.

 

willem11

I was discussing the viability of [Formula: Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality] vs [Scroll of Enchant Boots - Icewalker] with a friend today.

Tuskarr's Vitality gives a 8% movement speed increase, wich can increase your dps in various ways. Some I can think off:

- faster 'chasing' of the tanks so you can start dpsing faster
- faster moving from a fissure/fire like thing of wich you have to move instantly from (and thus not being able to time it with a living bomb refresh/instant pyro, resulting in a dps loss)
- faster overall movement during encounters, four horsemen comes in mind, Malygos aswell. But there are tons of bosses that involve moving around.
- higher survivability overall

Icewalker gives 12 crit and 12 hit, and while upgrading your gear you'll be in many situations where your actually overcapped hit and hit means nothing to you. I have checked some of the 'best possible gear sets' as far as my research goes chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x would be the best set. This set has 10.37% hit (and a possible 6 hit rating in the chest if you want to put in a orange gem in it) without the icewalker enchant, making extra hit useless for alliance players.

So, at least for alliance players, and for horde players that are unable to get the best possible set and find themselfs overcapped the equation would be 12 crit rating (0.26%) vs 8% extra movement speed.

Ofcourse having a unholy dk in the raid makes the speed enchant totally useless, but im not sure how rare this spec is in pve because its a pvp spec as far as I know.

While looking at mages from top guilds on armory I see some choose for speed and others choose for icewalker, so the answer cant be that obvious. But I dont really believe its just personal preference either.

Im not sure if this is a simple question, but I dont think its big enough for its own thread either.

Anyway, what are your thoughts about this choice?

 

itzkakarot

I apologize if this question has been answered previously, it's hard to come up with the right phrase to search for in Google...

Build: 0/53/18 (with 2/2 Imp Fireblast, 3/3 Incineration)
Rotation: LB, Scorch x2, FFB spam with HS Pyros, refreshing LB/Scorch every time they fade

My question is two-fold:

1. Has anyone done analysis to see if keeping a fireball dot refreshed permanently would yield a DPS increase to the above rotation? (More dots, anyone?)
2. Would keeping up a fireball dot be yield a DPS increase if Imp FB and Incineration were dropped for 5/5 Imp Fireball, considering you'd be throwing roughly 3-4 more fireballs than scorches?

I appreciate your help, experts.

 

Enthorn

Icewalker is the difference between [Potent Monarch Topaz] and [Veiled Monarch Topaz]. Think of the crit as bonus. One could argue that [Brilliant Spellthread] offers higher DPS than [Sapphire Spellthread] due to spirit affecting regen and stamina only affecting your health pool. The argument would probably stem from a line like, "It's not my responsibility to have more health, it's the healer's responsibility to keep me alive with what health I have."

Ah, but the difference between 300 health and ~4.5 Mp5 at 30% in-combat regen is quite a different argument than the difference between 12 hit (0.46%), 12 crit (0.26%) and 150 health and some slight movement speed increase. How important is 8% faster movement? When I need to get out of the fire, I blink. My goal is to move as little as possible. An increase in moevement speed, then, doesn't benefit me when I'm not moving.

Itzkakarot, there is no reason at any point in time, in any fight, to ever cast Fireball in a Frostfire build. Hope that helps.

 

willem11

Dont forget alliance players get 1% extra hit, they dont need the gem or enchant to cap hit with the endgame set.

So its only 0.26% crit vs 8% movement speed increase. The 150 health means nothing much to me either, its just the 8% speed im wondering about.

Every mages goal is to run as little as possible, yet you end up running thousands of yards every raid and there has to be some serious advantage if you can do this 8% faster. And the more im thinking about this the more bosses I imagine where the 8% movement speed actually helps to do things safer, more efficient, faster and to deliver more dps. Maexxna after webwrap, 4 horsemen, kelthussad, sapphiron, sattharion, grobulus, thaddius, heigan, malygos, loatheb (spore).

Also, Im not sure how viable blinking is, it messes up positions, procs global cooldowns and has some sort of 'lag'. I never forget my blinks at twins, where I ended up against the wall 20y away from the raid but the raid still ended up getting conflagged. I prefered to run from then on :P Also its impossible to use blink in many occations because you cant precisely aim it. At for example thaddius blink is godly ofcourse, but I doubt it smart to blink from fissures at sartharion with draks or at kelthussad because it simply messes up your possition too much.

 

Enthorn

Why would you blink on Thaddius fight? You'd end up in the middle of players who undoubtedly have an opposite charge, thereby causing unnecessary damage.

As far as I know, most everyone used Boar's Speed pre-wrath because the alternative, Vitality, was trivial. And while, yes, 8% run increase can help you stay out of the fire, it's also very selective in fights. It is indeed a personal choice, but I fail to see how it is at all a DPS increase over Icewalker. And saying you're going to use it because you're Alliance and have 1% hit from Draenei isn't a very valid argument. That argument implies that Horde mages should use Icewalker because they don't have an extra 1%.

Case in point, a number of undead players asked, "Because I have Will of the Forsaken, does that mean I don't need to wear my PvP trinket on Archimonde fight?" The answer is largely no. Same applies for Tears of the Goddess and Slow Fall spell.

 

◊ manly

Download my spreadsheet from the first post here: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t37364-f...e_bolt_thread/
Even if you manually edit fireball cast time to be 3s (which means you would have to forego fireblast and incineration), the total average damage of fireball is far too low to compete. Fireball damage including the dots is lower than ffb damage without dot.

edit:
ffb average hit (no dots): 11195.15
fireball + 4x dot average hit, manually editing in an extra 5% crit for fireball glyph: 9808.48

So no, do not ever cast fireball. That used to be a good idea before they made empowered fireball into empowered fire.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

willem11

You blink during the switch ofcourse, if your at the 'negative side' and your charge changes to positive you blink to the other side of the boss and thus dont loose any time 'running around'. Im not sure how you can cause any unnecesary damage durig the transition because the charges dont deal any damage at that time.

Anyway back to the 8% speed, im not thinking of the 8% speed as a survival stat to stay out of the fire, but a dps stat. When you are able to do your neccesary movement to 'stay out of the fire' faster you can resume dpsing earlier and thus deliver more dps.

I'm not sure about your last point, If the 1% hit I get as alliance makes the benefit of icewalker lower and if that would put it below the benefits of another enchant I should use the other one right? A obvious example would be my human racial, it makes the benefits of a pvp trinket allot lower and thus other trinkets come in range to be considered again (and in pve is totally useless to wear a pvp trinket in any situation as human). The thing is I dont have a clue what the benefits of 8% faster movement are.

 

Actovision

The Enhancement Shaman TTT thread has a small analysis of movement speed increases and their effect on dps. With raidwide Unholy Aura, blink, ranged damage, and the lack of real movement in boss fights so far you as a mage are better off just gearing with the 12 hit rating in mind.

 

briarmist

What is the optimal way to utilize my cooldowns (icy veing and beserking) on boss fights?

 

Kelfar

Depending on fight length you want to save them for 35%. If the fight is around 3-4 minutes its best to use them at the beginning of the fight and again at 35% or whenever they come off cooldown.

 

galzohar

While it would be a DPS increase, it would not be that much, since the time it takes the +damage charges to apply is longer than the time it takes to run between camps (assuming you keep both camps in melee range of thaddius), and you will then therefore do 1/2 your dps during the 1-2 seconds you gained. But yes this is a DPS increase if you don't have mana issues.

As for living bomb, does the damage calculate on-cast like most spells? If it does, only thing you need to worry about (please correct me if numbers say otherwise, although I'd be surprised if they do) is to delay casting it if it falls off while you don't have +damage debuffs, considering it takes them very little time to get re-applied after a polarity shift.

 

Zelyon

Hey, another question for all the Mages out there.

I'm having a really hard time getting hit-capped. It's like 360 something with EP right?
Are there specific pieces of gear that I should -really- try to get in order to keep my epics, and still be hit capped?

Thanks a lot.

 

Azrayne

First thing to ask yourself is whether you have a shadow priest/moonkin available the majority of the time? I imagine most 25 man guilds, and no small number of 10 man guilds, would, in which case you can drop back down to 289 hit.

As far as specific items go, Mark of the War Prisoner from H VH and Dying Curse from Naxx25 both provide a large chunk of hit rating and a nice DPS bonus (73 hit and a SP useable, and 71 hit and a SP proc, respectively). Can't go wrong with either of them, especially since your trinket choice at the moment is decidedly lacking. Grab whichever one you can get your hands on first, throw a belt buckle on your belt and gem it with a SP/hit gem, bam you're capped, have fun.

If you want to be capped out assuming no moonkin/SP, you're going to have to do a bit more thorough of a regearing. But that's not too big a deal, considering you're still wearing a large number of level 70 items which presumeably you're going to want to replace at the first available opportunity anyway.

I posted a gear setup in the 'best non-raid mage gear' thread which will cap you out at 14% hit and give you very respectable stats without requiring any raid loot, and there's a load of other good suggestions for gear there as well: Best Non-Raid Mage Gear

 

detached

wowhead can be a powerful tool. Items with +hit iLvl 187 - 200

Robe and trinket from Violet Hold Heroic and the Ebon Blade rep cloak would be good examples.

 

spaace

I've found from my experiences, blinking beats running during polairty shift. There's that 5 second window, and the group is set up accordingly, you can blink from one camp directly into the other... set up your 180º camera macro with blink, and you're already in place to start nuking, with the least amount of movment possible.

Blink is pretty underrated in my opinion. Once you learn how to use your range, blink becomes a very useful tool in keeping your DPS at its maximum, during movment fights. (1s cast vs movment for 2+yards)

 

Einhander

On Taddius i used to pump HS counter with Fireblast while running, or occasionally refresh LB. Its the same GCDs you use for blinking.

 

Enthorn

I was just recently on a 25-man Naxxramas run, and without me saying anything, nor any other mages bringing it up, the group leader specifically said "Mages, don't try to blink across when the charges change."

I'm aware that the damage isn't immediate, but perhaps there is some other reason. Maybe the leader was wrong, but I don't see why he would bring it up when no mages even asked about it. Maybe someone in a different run blinked thinking their polarity changed and realized afterwards that it didn't. At least with running, if you screw up, you have a second or two to turn around. I've always done the left/right positions. No matter which side you're on, you run to the left to change positions, so you never cross charges.

We were pretty close on the run to getting the achievement, actually. Only once did the charges cross, else we would have gotten it. But yeah, I mean, if blinking works for you, go ahead. I, like others, refresh Living Bomb, or use Fire Blast.

 

Pheroz

That's a horrible justification.

We aren't supposed to use blink during thaddius transitions, becuase (paraphrase) 'some guy said so without prompting, so he must have a good reason for it'.

That's not a reason to not use blink that should hold any weight on these forums.

 

Inoko

It's a lost GCD that could be spent doing damage, be it refreshing LB, casting fireblast, whatever. That's reason enough not to bother. And it's a mana sink, if that's a potential issue for you.

This may or may not be a signature.
You may or may not be wrong.

 

Pheroz

Those are valid reasons (although I'm not sure they are correct). My response was you shouldnt use a horrible reason as justification for an action, even if its the correct action.

If the issue is the lost GCD, I wonder how much time it takes to run, especially since most people run out (and ussually to the left). I'd wager it takes longer then 1 GCD to get from spot to spot when running, so how much is that 1 GCD saving you vs faster DPS. I'd also wonder how much value refreshing Living bomb on the move with 0 charge stacks vs. using a GCD for it while you have ~10 polarity charges during the 'nonswitch' times.

I've been blinking on the switches, becuase it 'feels' safer to me, and it feels faster, which I assume to be less lost DPS. Thats not to say its better, I honestly dont know. But it's not as simple as it seems to find a BEST solution, although it seems clear that both options do work.

 

Amarek

On Thaddius I would always blink. It is by far the safest way to do it. Even if your polarity didn't change and you blinked by mistake, there is more than enough time to run away from the group, if your fast you can even make it back. Every time polarity changes you have 5 seconds before you take damage by opposite charges (and get the damage-increase). There is no chance of taking polarity damage by blinking, except when you blink to soon, but that is poor play and not a problem inherent to blink.
I also think it is a dps-increase, because you can finish your last cast, even if you just started it when polarity shift went off. If you run across, you need to start running asap, cancelling your current cast.

But to be honest, this isn't a topic worth discussing. The damage gain - either way - is so minimal on Thaddius, it can be disregarded.

 

willem11

exactly, I always finish off my frostfire bolt and even have time to refresh living bomb/scorch if needed and then I press blink, and continue dpsing immedeatly after. I am sure this is the most efficient way of switching. Loosing 1 gcd vs running about 5 seconds (because you have to run around, and cant run straight trough the boss).

Also to keep casting during this run time will most likely make the running process even slower because you actually have to keep facing thaddius making running and casting even more troublesome.

This will let me cast 1 extra buffed frostfire bolt (my frostfire bolt leaves my hands exactly when the 'polarity buff' activates while others are still partly running or have just started casting. 1 bolt per swich is quite significant in my opinion. It also lets me cast a scorch/living bomb during the buff downtime so I do not waste the time scorching during buff uptime.

About the achievement, Ive gotten the achievement while blinking, so.

 

LBXZero

I have done this calculation before. The standard run speed is 20 yards per 3 seconds or 6 2/3 yards per second. I could say 20 feet per second, but the game rates everything in yards.

So you have less than 1.5 seconds to start casting again or possibly 2.5 seconds before casting, but you could use an instant cast while running.