Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 3

Drehnix · 11/18/08, 2:14 PM

I would like to know if "Torment the weak" works on boss just with a FrostFireBolt. Does the FFB apply the slowing buff on bosses ?

Thank you.

enthrop · 11/18/08, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Aidan

... but am at a loss for what values to assign to each stat. I am currently level 74. I'll be going frostfire (0/50/16) at 75 and plan on going 0/53/18, as I hear it's currently the dps king.

So my question is: What sort of values should I assign to each stat as a general rule of thumb based on a frostfire build?

Sorry Aidan, but I don't actually have an answer. I actually have the same exact question.

I've been reading all the stuff about how much spell hit & spell crit = 1% and such, but I'm not sure how to bring it all together in deciding what is better than what. I figure that until I get to level 80 and start replacing gear w/ raid content gear, I don't need to simulate every quest item drop out there, yet I want to be able to evaluate gear.

In 2.4, there was a thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t26138-mage_pve_dps/) that listed EP values for various stats given different levels of gear (eg pre-kara, T5, T6). I've been looking around, but can't find something similar yet.

So my question is twofold: (1) Does equivalent values exist today? (2) If not, how can I derive those values? Is there some explanation somewhere that I can mimic?

♦ Seonid · 11/18/08, 10:09 PM

Post deleted, will PM self not to post when tired.

Sprintsz · 11/19/08, 12:36 AM

Just a quick question if someone can answer it.

Was FFB spec but am now hit capped without elemental precision, is it worth speccing FB spec 19/52/0 or the likes now that i'm hit capped, with the crappy crit we have atm 23% with molten armor will FB spec pull ahead of FFB since FB hits for alot more then FFB non crit?

TheFairey · 11/19/08, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

-Flamestrike, when stacking 2 ranks, is awesome DPS and most of the time I'm able to hit all mobs with it. I only really need 2 extra talent points to get it instant after a DB.
-Stacking both of the above in tanked, static AoE (like

I thought I read they'd fixed this?

Jonny_Monroe · 11/19/08, 2:24 AM

Are you planning on AoE grinding? If not, then don't go for blizzard.

To get the full benefits of Blizzard, you need Permafrost, Imp Blizzard, Shatter, Ice Shards, Frostbite, Fingers of Frost, and Chilled to the Bone. No Frostfire spec will be getting those. Still, Blizzard is really powerful. so in instances with AoE, use Flamestrike to toss up the dot, then Blizzard, and repeat.

You only need 1 in permafrost and Imp. Blizzard, Frostbite and Ice shards are already taken in an FFB build. In instances the chills and freezes don't really matter and for solo grinding as FFB I have DB, BW and impact. I really, really don't need any extra CC with my AoE. A BW + Blizzard combo procing impact and frostbite along with the daze is ample for taking out most groups. The problem is that I can just as easilly use instant FS after a BW for similar results. It feels like overkill to get both and that leads to my post asking which to go for. In instances, again, I'm honestly struggling to see which gives better results.

Oh, and I'm not sold on FoF helping blizzard's crit rate. It only procs on Frostbites and frostbite will hold for 3-4 waves of blizzard whilst FoF is gone in 2.

Is a frostfirebuild really worth it pre-80? Right now experimenting with frostbuilds I'm having close to zero downtime with mage armor up. Nice critmodifiers and MOE I can see doing good but will it be as little downtime as frost equivalents (especially with clearcasting) ?

I would definitely not recommend it for leveling. The main DPS advantage is the big crits with ignite, but more often than not ignite will be wasted as regular mobs will simply die from the initial crit damage. That DPS advantage is also only calculated for bosses that are immune to freezing effects. With frost nova and WE's freeze you can always have shatter combos going off, pushing frost way ahead of FFB.

I've had 0 downtime using single-target Frostfire grinding. Obviously there is downtime for AoE pulls but to my knowledge that's true of all specs. Also, Frostfire for me is critting harder even before ignite. On average it takes me 3.5 bolts to take down a mob and between Frostbite and Impact, they never reach me. I find than the survivability talents in middle and lower frost are just too much for levelling on. If you need ice barrier or CttB for single-target then something is wrong.

-------------------------------------

Since this post I've decided to drop Blizzard AoE in favour of fire (specifically flamestrike). I've simply had far better results with it in instances and solo. I've taken some videos showing comparisons of the 2 I'll link once I'm done editing them; just in case anyone is interested in seeing how they play.

Jonny_Monroe · 11/19/08, 3:34 AM

Originally Posted by TheFairey

I thought I read they'd fixed this?

As of last night: no. When the servers come back up I'll look again.

willem11 · 11/19/08, 7:04 AM

Originally Posted by Sprintsz

Just a quick question if someone can answer it.

Was FFB spec but am now hit capped without elemental precision, is it worth speccing FB spec 19/52/0 or the likes now that i'm hit capped, with the crappy crit we have atm 23% with molten armor will FB spec pull ahead of FFB since FB hits for alot more then FFB non crit?

Good question, since many people still have the 4 t6 bonus fire might actually be a better choice untill your full t7 geared (you can even keep wearing 4 t7/4 t6 even after you gotten your t7 set. And I doubt the 'tier 7' belt/boots/bracers in naxx or from badges are that much of an upgrade that its worth spending dkp/badges on for a while (taking the 5% bonus in consideration) untill you get all 3 of them. So you can spend it on other gear.

All of this does not work for frostfire wich is quite annoying.

From my own point of view my dps in 10 man naxx wasnt any higher after speccing from frost to firefrost.

Oh and in heroics (stratholme timed run for example) frost is way superior to any fire/frostfire spec. Fully specced blizzard is just insane in 5 mans where you aoe down everything.

Roywyn · 11/19/08, 7:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

Oh, and I'm not sold on FoF helping blizzard's crit rate. It only procs on Frostbites and frostbite will hold for 3-4 waves of blizzard whilst FoF is gone in 2.

FoF is actually gone after 1 wave.
Which is good, because it applies Shatter to the whole wave while Frostbite only applies Shatter to one target.

So for Blizzard AoE, FoF works like "you have a 15% per target to gain 50% crit for the next wave".
At least that's what it looked like when I tested it in beta.

Originally Posted by enthrop

In 2.4, there was a thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t26138-mage_pve_dps/) that listed EP values for various stats given different levels of gear (eg pre-kara, T5, T6). I've been looking around, but can't find something similar yet.

So my question is twofold: (1) Does equivalent values exist today? (2) If not, how can I derive those values? Is there some explanation somewhere that I can mimic?

Rawr, Simcraft, Magegraf and Zaldinar's TCOM spit out stat weightings. And probably half a dozen more tools.

[Edit]: Ghost hit on Frostfire Bolt
It seems that FFB gets 6% or even more hit from Elemental Precision from eyeballing some Patchwerk/Naxx logs on Wowwebstats.
FFB resist rates are consistently significantly below Pyro/Bomb/Mirror Image resist rates.

enthrop · 11/19/08, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Rawr, Simcraft, Magegraf and Zaldinar's TCOM spit out stat weightings. And probably half a dozen more tools.

I've been playing w/ Rawr, and can't seem to figure out where it displays stat weightings.

Also, in my guild, I am the only mage at the moment (we're trying to recruit more). As a result, I've disabled lots of things in Rawr like having another mage keeping scorch up and such. I've put in some standard specs (eg frostfire, arcane, deep arcane, fire, frost, etc.), and I see anything that goes 'deep' into frost to get water elemental > frostfire > everything else. My suspicion is that rawr's simulator is doing something like.. popping water elemental + CDs + cold snap + elemental again... I do admit when I've dps'd as frost, I've had a nice boost to my dps as a result of an elemental... but is there a way in rawr to disable that? Or should I not? And that maybe with my crap gear, I should remain dps'ing in frost until I get better?

Essentially, I guess I'm asking.. how do people tend to model the use of a water elemental?

Also, I've played w/ Simcraft a bit and it seems to be more geared towards simulating a raid. As a consequence, if I want accurate results of individual specs, should I run Simcraft as a 1-man raid? And simply change the spec of that 1 person? Or can I plug in 5 mages in 1 Simcraft file and compare them side by side?

Zymm · 11/19/08, 10:52 AM

First: I love the new Class sub-forums.

Second: As a mage (and the Dalaran port being moot), is the [Signet of the Kirin Tor] worth the gold? There seems to be rings of approximately equal dps-value that are cheaper or raid/heroic drops.

Sargeth · 11/19/08, 2:42 PM

The item budget Rawr is giving me for a FF build is a bit counter-intuitive. It's ranking spellpower as my most valuable stat. With I believe 350% crit damage, and no Improved FFB talent, I really expected spellpower to fall to the wayside in favor of more crit rating. Even when I remove Empowered Fire, spellpower still remains at the top of my item budget.

What gives? Am I screwing up my Rawr parameters, or is there some mechanic I'm overlooking?

Hephelstine · 11/19/08, 3:15 PM

I’m becoming a little confused now with scorch. It has been posted under WotLK Talent Discussion (Part Two) thread that if you have a deep frost mage in your raid applying scorch is a waste of time because the chill affect and scorch do not stack. I have not seen any reference to this in this thread but rather to keep scorch up. Can some please clear this up? I have tried to go against my urge and not throw up my stack with a deep frost mage in the group and I feel that I have actually lost dps rather than gain.

DeimosXI · 11/19/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sargeth

The item budget Rawr is giving me for a FF build is a bit counter-intuitive. It's ranking spellpower as my most valuable stat. With I believe 350% crit damage, and no Improved FFB talent, I really expected spellpower to fall to the wayside in favor of more crit rating. Even when I remove Empowered Fire, spellpower still remains at the top of my item budget.

What gives? Am I screwing up my Rawr parameters, or is there some mechanic I'm overlooking?

*Long time reader first time poster*

As you level you will notice that your crit % is getting lower meaning you need more crit for the same benefit at level 80. With the scaling crit, point for point, spell power is still a more valuable stat for maximizing DPS.

Bringing me on to my question.

I have seen a few 0_58_13 level 80 talent builds where people have opted to take both burning soul and frost channeling. It is my understanding that the threat reduction benefits do not stack for frostfire bolt.

My preference would be frost channeling for the mana return, but do we think it is worthwhile spending another two talent points for the pushback resistance or to reduce threat on non FFB spells/abilities?

As an alternative would the two points be better spent in arcane subtlety for 40% threat reduction on arcane explosion for nice safe AOE or spec into dragons breath with a floating point?

manly · 11/19/08, 3:54 PM

well, if i were to give a rough rule of thumb, I'd say you want to not scorch anything that lives 1min or more. Reason being that scorch/WC do not apply when either is up. As such, it tends to be more preferable to have WC up assuming 100% uptime is realistic. The reason behind it is that theres only a few cases that 'matter'.

1- <0s-10s> Scorch may not be worth casting depending on scenario (duration, travel time, etc.) Generally I avoid casting scorch whenever I know less than 10 spell will hit my target.
2- <10s-15s> mob dies before the time it takes to stack 5x WC. Scorch is always better.
3- <15s-30s> Scorch is always better because the time it takes to stack WC is too long. Too much of your time is spent casting with low-crit buff being up.
4- <30-60s> If Scorch is better at the 30s mark, then you need to cast 1 more scorch to keep it up for an extra 30s. At that point, the extra 30s comes at 'no penalty'. Scorch wins.
5- <60+> Winters Chill is best.

All of the above assume comparing 1 frost mage and 1 fire mage. The fire mage is assumed to have the glyph. Number would drastically change with 2-3 frost mages.