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Old 01/29/09, 8:33 AM   #926
Dustwhisper
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Doomhammer (EU)
Yes I would too actually seeing as our MT Warrior does not use TC and I'm not too sure about our feral. Luckily we have a DPS DK on most of the time.

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Old 01/29/09, 8:43 AM   #927
Masnie
Don Flamenco
 
Masnie's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Originally Posted by Wizeowel View Post
Prot Paladin wouldn't use JoJ for tanking, and it would be the 3rd priority to apply after JoL and JoW. [/url]
They don't have to. The attack speed reduction comes with any judgement. I guess this is just a confusion from Judgement of Justice (JoJ) and Judgements of the Just (JotJ). So, it doesn't matter what judgement is used.
The problem, however, is that you can't actually see Judgement of the Just as a debuff on the mob, it is just a sideeffect from having a Protection Paladin judging. If the paladins don't communicty efficiently then other paladins' judgements might even overwrite JotJ without anyone noticing. For the other classes a Debuff addon is still the easiest solution to track the slowing debuffs.

As for the tanking druid: if he is specced for "max mitigation" then I'm not sure why he would not spec a 20% attack speed reduction.

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Old 01/29/09, 9:26 AM   #928
Swindley
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Masnie View Post
As for the tanking druid: if he is specced for "max mitigation" then I'm not sure why he would not spec a 20% attack speed reduction.
Indeed, and I tried explaining that too him as well. (Btw isnt it 10%? Checked wowhead spells)
But I won't pretend to know much about druid when I don't have a druid. I'll tell anyone anything about mages, but I don't like to butt into classes I'm not very good at, especially not telling them how to spec and such.

Also, to the suggestion about debuff tracker. Well, having to track 5 different debuffs, cluttering my screen when all I really want is an "active" or "not active" message or signal/symbol doesn't seem optimal. If there already is one, or someone would make one, I actually think it would be a highly usefull addon that many mages would use.

Here's another question for you. Assume a tank cannot put slow (like a druid tank not specced for it). Which other classes would be able to put it up that are NOT tanks? Like, Icy touch for DPS DK's, but what else? Would it be possible for a DPS warrior to thunderclap? Or does it require a different stance or significant DPS loss? This I don't know that much about either. As this is kind of important in our mage heavy raids, I'd like all the information I can get on the subject.

edit: icy touch, not howling blast of course:>

Last edited by Swindley : 01/29/09 at 4:24 PM.

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Old 01/29/09, 10:19 AM   #929
Misch
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Eredar
Sarth 3-D: Amp on the main tank or no?

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Old 01/29/09, 3:02 PM   #930
Wenchery
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Burning Blade
Frostfire 4-piece

Read the forums quite often - but sometimes miss a response, so if it has been addressed already, I apologize.

I've seen quite a bit of discussion that the Rawr values for Frostfire 4pc (5% critical damage bonus) are overvalued. Intuitively, it's value would be slightly more than that of the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond - but obviously this depends on spec.

The problem I immediately see is that the order of specs in which 4pc would most benefit, based off the assumed crit rate, would be ToW Fire (18/53/0) -> FFB (0/53/18) -> Arcane (57 /3/11), which are also the order which would most benefit from using offset pieces.

This is of course assuming that one is using Val Frostfire Gloves and Shoulders, and that four piece would be Legs + either Chest or Helm (both of which are equally terribad, though Helm is better compared to most current alternatives)

For which specs, if any, are using top-in-slot/2nd-in-slot off-pieces (IE Hood of Rationality, Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster / Leggings of Mortal Arrogance, Gown of the Spellweaver / Sanctum Vestments) better than having 4pc?

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Old 01/29/09, 3:24 PM   #931
Raencloud
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Stormrage
None, it's always best to use the 4pc, just as chaotic skyfire is miles ahead of any other meta gem. We are at a point in wow where individual spells hit so hard that crit modifiers are just that good.

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Old 01/29/09, 3:30 PM   #932
Kaymar
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Swindley View Post
Is there a mod which checks if TTW is active on your current target?
Having no active Arcane mages in my guild, I don't know exactly how TTW is applied. Assuming it's a debuff like any other (LB, Imp Scorch, etc.), you can use Need To Know to track it. NTK is a lightweight, easy-to-configure mod that will display a timer bar only when the debuff is active. You can resize and place the bar anywhere you want to minimize UI clutter. You can also set the mod to track debuffs applied by anyone in the raid, so, as long as the appropriate snare effect is active from someone, NTK will display its TTW bar.

It would also be possible to incorporate the other buffs/debuffs that you currently track into one consolidated unit and possibly address your UI clutter issues as well.

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Old 01/29/09, 3:33 PM   #933
Swindley
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaymar View Post
Having no active Arcane mages in my guild, I don't know exactly how TTW is applied. Assuming it's a debuff like any other (LB, Imp Scorch, etc.), you can use Need To Know to track it. NTK is a lightweight, easy-to-configure mod that will display a timer bar only when the debuff is active. You can resize and place the bar anywhere you want to minimize UI clutter. You can also set the mod to track debuffs applied by anyone in the raid, so, as long as the appropriate snare effect is active from someone, NTK will display its TTW bar.
I already use NeedToKnow, and it's a very bad sollution having to add 5 more buffs just to know if TTW is active. It clutters up the screen and seems like a "clumsy" way to do it. I already use it to trach my own buffs and debuffs on the boss, and I don't really want to add 5 more lines to it just to check a simple "yes" or "no" condition. There must be a simpler way!

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Old 01/29/09, 3:45 PM   #934
Kelfar
Piston Honda
 
Kelfar's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Kaymar View Post
Having no active Arcane mages in my guild, I don't know exactly how TTW is applied.
TTW isn't applied, its not a buff or debuff, you never gain it. TTW just makes certain spells do more damage, but you don't know if you are under its effects except if you know there is a attack speed/casting speed slow up.

Originally Posted by Swindley View Post
Here's another question for you. Assume a tank cannot put slow (like a druid tank not specced for it). Which other classes would be able to put it up that are NOT tanks? Like, Howling blast for DPS DK's, but what else? Would it be possible for a DPS warrior to thunderclap? Or does it require a different stance or significant DPS loss? This I don't know that much about either. As this is kind of important in our mage heavy raids, I'd like all the information I can get on the subject.
Its not howling blast that applies the debuff, its Icy Touch which applies the Frost Fever debuff. I don't see why a dps warrior wouldn't use TC, it makes the boss attack slower which helps the tank, they should apply it. Especially on fights like thaddius where they can apply it while running across to the other side.

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Old 01/29/09, 3:48 PM   #935
Kaymar
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Korgath
So, it sounds like you're saying that TTW isn't its own, discrete debuff, but a passive damage bonus that is calculated on the condition of another debuff being applied. I don't know if that's possible. Your mod would need to be able to (1) sense and track the application of an appropriate snare effect and (2) sense that at least one mage in the raid has specced into the TTW talent. Not knowing enough about the WoW API's available to mod programmers, I can't reach any definite conclusion.

It seems that the best course for you to take is to make a post on Curse calling for such a mod and see what the response is.

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Old 01/29/09, 4:00 PM   #936
Kelfar
Piston Honda
 
Kelfar's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Kaymar View Post
So, it sounds like you're saying that TTW isn't its own, discrete debuff, but a passive damage bonus that is calculated on the condition of another debuff being applied. I don't know if that's possible. Your mod would need to be able to (1) sense and track the application of an appropriate snare effect and (2) sense that at least one mage in the raid has specced into the TTW talent. Not knowing enough about the WoW API's available to mod programmers, I can't reach any definite conclusion.

It seems that the best course for you to take is to make a post on Curse calling for such a mod and see what the response is.
That's exactly right. Therefore the only type of addon you could have is one that detects if one of the 5 casting speed/attack speed slows is up and then shows the TTW icon on your screen somewhere. That or just having an addon that shows a bar with the 5 casting/attack speed slows and lights it up if the boss has it.

Edit: I am pretty sure this addon displays if a casting speed/attack speed slow is up.

Utopia - Addons - Curse

Last edited by Kelfar : 01/29/09 at 4:15 PM.

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Old 01/29/09, 4:12 PM   #937
Buundox
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Archimonde
You could just make an EBB bar group or NeedtoKnow (I have no experience with the latter) that shows only those debuffs on the boss. Create it relavtively small, as you don't need to know which debuff is on the boss, just that one of those 5 is being applied. If you see something pop up in that bargroup then you will know that TTW is being applied to the appropriate spells.

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Old 01/29/09, 4:22 PM   #938
Swindley
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Kelfar View Post
Its not howling blast that applies the debuff, its Icy Touch which applies the Frost Fever debuff. I don't see why a dps warrior wouldn't use TC, it makes the boss attack slower which helps the tank, they should apply it. Especially on fights like thaddius where they can apply it while running across to the other side.
Sorry I ment Icy touch of course, just a stupid typo/mistake by me:> And what stance does TC require? Would a DPS warrior lose alot of DPS putting it down? Require stance switching? (it would of course be worth it anyway, but if it's a big dps loss, should ahve the lesser geared one do it, etc..)

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Old 01/29/09, 4:27 PM   #939
Chalii
Glass Joe
 
Chalii's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
<VoS>
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Swindley View Post
Sorry I ment Icy touch of course, just a stupid typo/mistake by me:> And what stance does TC require? Would a DPS warrior lose alot of DPS putting it down? Require stance switching? (it would of course be worth it anyway, but if it's a big dps loss, should ahve the lesser geared one do it, etc..)
A dps warrior would have to switch from berserker stance to battle stance in order to put up Thunder Clap. They would lose all their rage and that would lower their dps. It would be much better if the main tank could keep up Thunder Clap as much as possible.

"You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one!" -Drizzt Do'Urden

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Old 01/29/09, 4:40 PM   #940
Kelfar
Piston Honda
 
Kelfar's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Chalii View Post
A dps warrior would have to switch from berserker stance to battle stance in order to put up Thunder Clap. They would lose all their rage and that would lower their dps. It would be much better if the main tank could keep up Thunder Clap as much as possible.
While this is true Swindley said he doesn't have a warrior tanking, only dps warriors. Depending on how many mages are in the raid it may worthwhile for him to attempt to keep TC up if it means that much more damage for the mages.

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Old 01/29/09, 5:19 PM   #941
Chalii
Glass Joe
 
Chalii's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
<VoS>
Sargeras
It would definitely be a dps increase for the mages if TC was kept up 100% of the time. That being said you would have to ask one of the dps warriors to switch stances and keep it up and if they aren't too bothered by their personal dps being lowered in order to improve two or more mages dps then it should be done. The only issue I see is if the warrior is really anal about their dps and refuses to lose rage in order to apply TC.

"You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one!" -Drizzt Do'Urden

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Old 01/29/09, 5:25 PM   #942
 ash2ash
Operation Asian
 
ash2ash's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Swindley View Post
I already use NeedToKnow, and it's a very bad sollution having to add 5 more buffs just to know if TTW is active. It clutters up the screen and seems like a "clumsy" way to do it. I already use it to trach my own buffs and debuffs on the boss, and I don't really want to add 5 more lines to it just to check a simple "yes" or "no" condition. There must be a simpler way!
You could use power auras and have an identical aura display for each of the 5 debuffs.

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Old 01/29/09, 7:19 PM   #943
Bedrayne
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Cenarius
I am still not sure why not having a Prot Warrior tanking should matter. If you are in a guild that is serious about raiding all 4 tank classes put up a slow in their optimal spec. A druid who does not spec infected wounds, pali w/o Judgements of the Just (talent not spell), a DK not using Icy Touch, or Warrior not using TC needs to be taken aside and asked by the raid leader or guild officers what, exactly, is wrong with spending (up to 3) talent points to reduce incoming white damage by 20% (the swing reduction) and buffing mages' damage by 12%. The Infected wounds at 3 pts will apply a 10% - stacking to 2 - debuff. As far as what other classes bring the debuff if you are in a PuG, you have to pray there is a DK, which is a fairly safe bet.
-edit for additional clarity-
The triggers for TTW are casting or swinging time debuffs. Movement speed reductions (such as Judgement of Justice) from a paladin will not work on bosses.

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Old 01/30/09, 8:30 AM   #944
Dustwhisper
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Doomhammer (EU)
From what I was said I think our warrior(s) drops TC for a more threat-optimal cycle. I cannot verify the validity of this as I know less about warriors than a two year old.

Nonetheless frost feaver seems to be always up.

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Old 01/30/09, 9:09 AM   #945
Swindley
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Dustwhisper View Post
From what I was said I think our warrior(s) drops TC for a more threat-optimal cycle. I cannot verify the validity of this as I know less about warriors than a two year old.

Nonetheless frost feaver seems to be always up.
I have noticed this as well for some warriors. Only on single targets of course. But I am no warrior expert neither:>
However, I feel it's easier to just remind/ask the warriror to use TC to help the mages dmg, than to ask our druid tank/offtank to respec to suit our needs:> But of course, I would have to KNOW if he's actually using TC or not, as you know, nagging people on how to play their class isnt well recieved, especially not a mage telling a warrior how to tank:>

Power auras seem interesting, I will take a look at it, thanks!

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Old 01/30/09, 9:24 AM   #946
Ilyawen
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Die Todeskrallen (EU)
Originally Posted by Misch View Post
Sarth 3-D: Amp on the main tank or no?
I believe it hasn't been answered on this page, so my go on it: Hell no!

If by "main tank" you mean the guy tanking Sarth himself, Amp would be quite contraproductive. He isn't getting fast-frequency magic damage in, which might make it an interessting option.
But reconsider: There are phases in the encounter (notably, with the Shadron disciple out, but the third drake not present yet) where you really don't want to get in any more damage from the breaths. Using a warrior ourselves, we hit a point (right after Last Stand runs out) where we have no Shieldwall or Guardian Spirit on the tank, but only a trinket active to keep him slightly above the mark of the regular breath during that phase. Having that breath hit a bit harder would be a terribad idea in this case.

Even with any other tank, you will want to keep your tank well up on 100% health for most of the time. Hence, your healers (priests or paladins I guess) will be pushing out massive ammounts of overheal in pretty much every case, so your amp magic won't be needed.

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Old 01/30/09, 12:20 PM   #947
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
Roywyn's Avatar
 
Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Ilyawen View Post
I believe it hasn't been answered on this page, so my go on it: Hell no!
I think you asked yourself the wrong question.

What we actually need to know to answer properly is:
1) Does Amplify Magic increase Breath Damage?
2) Is the extra damage further increased by the encounter modifiers?
3) How does the change to spike relate to a change in heals, hots and shields?

If it doesn't affect it at all (or extra damage is not modified), Amplify is the choice.
The little extra damage is more than made up by the extra absorption on PW:Shield.

If extra damage happens and is modified, you really should cast Dampen Magic on your tank.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 01/30/09, 12:54 PM   #948
Pyro919
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Frostwolf
We have 2 mages in our guild and one is really well geared, the other is pretty crappily geared

My question is, that it is currently my understanding that at least 1 should be FFB specced or Fireball Specced in order to give the entire raid + 10 % crit and put out a decent amount of damage. Would it be more beneficial to the raid to have the well geared or crappily geared mage not arcane and have them be FFB or Fireball?

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Old 01/30/09, 1:04 PM   #949
Raencloud
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Pyro919 View Post
We have 2 mages in our guild and one is really well geared, the other is pretty crappily geared

My question is, that it is currently my understanding that at least 1 should be FFB specced or Fireball Specced in order to give the entire raid + 10 % crit and put out a decent amount of damage. Would it be more beneficial to the raid to have the well geared or crappily geared mage not arcane and have them be FFB or Fireball?
We would need their stats to provide a good answer. "Crappy" gear doesn't tell us much about the situation, because he might be way over hit cap in his crappy gear and therefore would be a good candidate for ttw fire, or he may be under hit cap and would be best to stay with arcane. The 3 specs differ so much in gearing that crappy for 1 might be good for another.

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Old 01/30/09, 1:24 PM   #950
Pyro919
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by Raencloud View Post
We would need their stats to provide a good answer. "Crappy" gear doesn't tell us much about the situation, because he might be way over hit cap in his crappy gear and therefore would be a good candidate for ttw fire, or he may be under hit cap and would be best to stay with arcane. The 3 specs differ so much in gearing that crappy for 1 might be good for another.
My armory link:
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His Armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Sorry this wasn't included in the first post.

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