If I may make a suggestion, the Arcane thread may benefit from a list of debuffs that affect TTW.
This has been posted at least twice if not more in this very thread. Use the search function. Also assuming your MT is not a retard you should have 100% uptime on TTW regardless of your tank's class.
I am currently playnig 18/53/0 so Dying Curse is one of my obvious choices for the hit rating (currently at 13.86% sigh), but I am debating on which fights would I use Embrace and which fights I would use Sundial.
If your gear cannot support it then why are you 18/53/0? Go respec to 0/53/18 and get the 3% more hit.
This has been posted at least twice if not more in this very thread. Use the search function. Also assuming your MT is not a retard you should have 100% uptime on TTW regardless of your tank's class.
If your gear cannot support it then why are you 18/53/0? Go respec to 0/53/18 and get the 3% more hit.
Not sure what you mean, but he's stating he has 13.86% hit, which is fine actullally, assuming SHpriest or a moonkin. If alliance, even 13% would be fine.
But you dont NEED 3% more hit to play 18/53/0, but it is optimal. Remember, hit is just a dps stat that scales well and has a cap, you dont NEED it more than you need spellpower or crit or whatever, it's just a dps stat, it scales good.
Wth my old FFB gear, Rawr showed a DPS increase switching to TTW FB, even if it would leave me 3% under cap. So telling him to respec is abit naive.
I just get abit tired of the "you must be hitcapped!!" nonsense going around. It's just a very good dps stat, not a requirement for anything.
Wth my old FFB gear, Rawr showed a DPS increase switching to TTW FB, even if it would leave me 3% under cap. So telling him to respec is abit naive.
Assuming he meant 13.86% already counting misery there's no way it would be a dps increase, and he says himself he is 3% under the cap. Saying you don't have to be hit capped is true, but there is a reason every optimal mage gear set is hit capped or slightly over; hit adds the most dps point for point then any other dmg stat and has the lowest item budget. If you are over 2% below the hit cap you are missing alot of easy ways to get potential dps increases by using bad or wrong gear/gemming, you can correct this probelm somewhat by using a spec that is more friendly to your gear.
Assuming he meant 13.86% already counting misery there's no way it would be a dps increase, and he says himself he is 3% under the cap. Saying you don't have to be hit capped is true, but there is a reason every optimal mage gear set is hit capped or slightly over; hit adds the most dps point for point then any other dmg stat and has the lowest item budget. If you are over 2% below the hit cap you are missing alot of easy ways to get potential dps increases by using bad or wrong gear/gemming, you can correct this probelm somewhat by using a spec that is more friendly to your gear.
Notice the use of the word "optimal"
A spec more friendly to his gear? If TTW FB is higher dps than FFB even if he'd be below 3% then it's simply a better spec, no matter if he's below cap (if single target dps is what he's aiming for).
Again, not sure how I can explain it to you properly, because there seems to be a mentality to "get hitcapped or be useless" which is simply not true. Especially when you don't have your perfect gearset yet.
Spec whatever gives the most dps. I'll give an example with my old gear. I was FFB speced and had 10% hit before talents. However, Rawr showed me that speccing TTW FB would increase my dps by about 5% even if I'd be 3% under hitcap.
Of course, I'm not downplaying hit or saying I should stay lower on hit or something, but remember, it's just a good DPS stat, not nessecary for a spec to function.
I think the issue with hit capping right now is that with almost any reasonable (even pre-raid) gear a mage right now should be hitcapped, if not trying to shed hit for almost anything else. Right now I am trying hard to drop hit, but with a 57 arcane spec I am still sitting almost 3% past the cap. So for me if I see a lvl 80 mage non hit capped it indicates a major problem with either the gear selection or spec.
Does Frostfire bolt get any threat reduction from Burning soul or Frost channeling? If no, is this a bug? I have been unable to find/figure this out. I am pulling agro left and right, constantly having Omen screaming at me, yet I am always topped on the meter by a lock and an Arcane mage.
I think the issue with hit capping right now is that with almost any reasonable (even pre-raid) gear a mage right now should be hitcapped, if not trying to shed hit for almost anything else. Right now I am trying hard to drop hit, but with a 57 arcane spec I am still sitting almost 3% past the cap. So for me if I see a lvl 80 mage non hit capped it indicates a major problem with either the gear selection or spec.
You are carrying Mark of the War Prisoner (75 hit plus a spell damage proc). If you have 3% too much hit, almost any trinket is better than that.
It's not that easy - I have that trinket too, but I would sooner use the Mercurial Alchemist's Stone. I just replaced Hat of Wintry Doom with Cowl of Vanity. I am 0.7% under cap. If I get a chest or legs with better stats but no hit, I may myself have to use Mark of the War Prisoner.
Or, to summarise: getting to the hitcap DOES involve compromises.
He's the only mage on there, right above the tank (Songouki). His gearset is comparable to, if not superior to, the other casters, yet he is consistently the worst DPS. It would be much appreciated if anyone in the know could direct a PM my way with some advice.
I didn't see anything obvious from my look at it. He doesn't appear to have a high miss rate, his spec seems, well, fine.
Thank you in advance.
Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)
Assuming he meant 13.86% already counting misery there's no way it would be a dps increase, and he says himself he is 3% under the cap. Saying you don't have to be hit capped is true, but there is a reason every optimal mage gear set is hit capped or slightly over; hit adds the most dps point for point then any other dmg stat and has the lowest item budget. If you are over 2% below the hit cap you are missing alot of easy ways to get potential dps increases by using bad or wrong gear/gemming, you can correct this probelm somewhat by using a spec that is more friendly to your gear.
If I wanted to include misery in that number, I may have mentioned it. With the current gear available to me in my bank, I can achieve the 14% hit hit rating if I wanted to, but at a loss of ~20haste rating and ~20sp and 30ish spirit. The 20 haste and 20 sp seemed more valuable than 0.16% miss chance.
I mean, would I rather not miss 1000 fireballs thrown? Or miss 1.6 fireballs for every 1000, but on all those other fireballs that hit, I had ~20sp more on them and ~20haste more to cast them faster?
I mean, would I rather not miss 1000 fireballs thrown? Or miss 1.6 fireballs for every 1000, but on all those other fireballs that hit, I had ~20sp more on them and ~20haste more to cast them faster?
This is a poor way to look at hit rating. First, to get the obvious out of the way, a missed frostfire critical is ~14,000 lost damage, on top of the possible missed Hot Streak, assuming the next Frostfire you cast that does hit is a non-critical. Then you've lost pyroblast damage as well. The question of course is, does the extra spell power and haste added on to every other spell that does hit add up to the lost damage listed above?
But aside from that, missing a Scorch and letting Scorch fall off means downtime on 10% crit for the entire raid for a few seconds. And if you're not expecting a missed Scorch, then you may end up doing Scorch -> Frostfire Bolt and then realizing the Scorch missed, reapply it next cast. Now you're looking at ~6.25 seconds downtime (1.25 for the missed Scorch, 2.5 for the Frostfire, and then another 2.50 for the two Scorches to reapply the debuff).
This is a poor way to look at hit rating. First, to get the obvious out of the way, a missed frostfire critical is ~14,000 lost damage, on top of the possible missed Hot Streak, assuming the next Frostfire you cast that does hit is a non-critical. Then you've lost pyroblast damage as well. The question of course is, does the extra spell power and haste added on to every other spell that does hit add up to the lost damage listed above?
But aside from that, missing a Scorch and letting Scorch fall off means downtime on 10% crit for the entire raid for a few seconds. And if you're not expecting a missed Scorch, then you may end up doing Scorch -> Frostfire Bolt and then realizing the Scorch missed, reapply it next cast. Now you're looking at ~6.25 seconds downtime (1.25 for the missed Scorch, 2.5 for the Frostfire, and then another 2.50 for the two Scorches to reapply the debuff).
The odds of that happening is 1.6 times of 1000 casts with 0.16% miss rate. Meanwhile his 20dmg and 20 haste have contributed something like 40.000 dmg.
Even if you make up some worst case scenario to miss the spell, the 20dmg and 20 haste is clearly better than something like 5 hit. This is exactly what I mean. Hit is just a DPS stat, don't follow "cap at whatever cost" like it's some fanatic religion. There's no doubt at all that 20dmg and 20 haste is better than 5 hit, period.
If you're in doubt, check Rawr.
It's like if I was 2% under hitcap, and I would sacrifice a 200spelldmg trinket (illustration) with a green 60 hit trinket (no other stats) just to get hitcapped, which is beyond retarded. (I know someone that actually does this)
And please don't do any math with a worst case scenario happening 1 out of 1000 times, or I'll counter with some equally stupid scenario where everyone died with the boss at 500 hp, and your 20 dmg/haste would have killed him. It's not usefull at all.
When wotlk come up and when start raiding had ffb build and i liked too much , but after patch trying with arcane specc and i have some questions.
So i am using atm those glyphs : mage armor (80 % regen while casting), arcane blast, and mana gem
But many they say to use molten armor for extra crit and ap for extra 3 sec if i remember correct
My gear making for ffb so i had good crit etc and no spirit items for example.
I think in arcane specc we must look sp>haste>crit I have right here ?
So what u think its better for me and for my gear for specc and glyphs?
For long time battles like kel'thuzad or thadius for example i think is better to use mage armor for mana back. I didnt trying yet without it cause i afraid
My guild can clear easy 25 man naxxramas and in raid we have shadow priest survival hunters etc, but i am thinking this "if i have mana i can spell more time than 5 %crit when use molten armor" But i need the best possible dps so ...
My rotation is Abx3 Abar, when AM procc when use AB then i will go with ABx3 AM Abar, and if am proc after abar then using Abx3 abar am abar , Are all those good ?
Maybe this specc is good for retalent? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In past didnt have arcane stability but maybe is better to put some talents now ?
So thats all i hope to understand me and u can answer me soon
ps: another one question for something that i dont know how works. Frost warding ! How works this? When i am on kel and he cast me frostbolts i have 30% chance to dont take damage and take back mana same with hit of frostbolt? That he says ? Then is good to using?
This is exactly what I mean. Hit is just a DPS stat, don't follow "cap at whatever cost" like it's some fanatic religion. There's no doubt at all that 20dmg and 20 haste is better than 5 hit, period.
I know this, but as Salus also pointed out, I think we're wondering why 20 spell/20 haste (and 30 spirit) is being compared with 5 hit.
I am aware of the numbers Rawr puts out, but the situation didn't seem to be as simple as close to 17% as implied: someone is raiding Frostfire at 17% (with 3% from Elemental Precision). Rawr tells them to switch to Fireball, because despite the loss of hit, it's a higher DPS spec. Now they're 3% under, which is far different from the 0.16% being discussed.
Is Misery/Ferie Fire suddenly being applied? Was it ever there when the person in question was using Frostfire? If so, that's 3% over the hit cap. Most people tend to know whether they'll have a 3% hit debuff or not, and if anything, [Dying Curse] is a great item for a situation like this (when you normally have the debuff and suddenly find yourself without it, such as a 10-man raid).
Alright .. So like every other mage and his brother I'm currently raiding as Arcane. However I have read on this forum that a Fireball based spec can preform better than a FFB one, and I assume it still supplies the scorch debuff.
Since there is no Fireball thread here I was wondering if someone could be kind enough to post a decent Fireball spec and also mention some glyphs that are needed for that spec. I assume the rotation would be the same as for FFB but with Fireball instead of FFB.
I think the issue with hit capping right now is that with almost any reasonable (even pre-raid) gear a mage right now should be hitcapped, if not trying to shed hit for almost anything else. Right now I am trying hard to drop hit, but with a 57 arcane spec I am still sitting almost 3% past the cap. So for me if I see a lvl 80 mage non hit capped it indicates a major problem with either the gear selection or spec.
Ok, with what you said above, how would you change my gear (gems, or otherwise) to get to that? Replace +19 spell with +16 Hit?
I am open to all suggestions. But for me, it seems like hit rating outside of a 25 man raid should be around 266, any more is better spent on haste and spell.
Last edited by unelitejerk : 02/04/09 at 4:44 PM.
Reason: moderators request
I am open to all suggestions. But for me, it seems like hit rating outside of a 25 man raid should be around 266, any more is better spent on haste and spell.
Since you have 10.71% hit I would drop Arcane focus from your talents and 1 point elsewhere and pick up 4/5 stability. You could keep your current gear and get full pushback protection with a concentration aura. I'm sure that will increase your dps more in fights with random dmg, since the hit is wasted assuming you have a shpriest or moonkin.
I actually prefer to gear for 10% arcane hit for this very reason (1% from draenei as well).
On the subject of hit, there is no possible way to not be hitcapped in my opinion.
When not hit capped hit enchants>damage enchants, hit gems>spell damage gems, and Hit food>spell damage food. I have yet to meet a mage that could not get hitcapped by changing these three things.
People seem to forget about this, saying: 'im missing 40 hit rating', while infact they can just get proper consumables.
Since you have 10.71% hit I would drop Arcane focus from your talents and 1 point elsewhere and pick up 4/5 stability. You could keep your current gear and get full pushback protection with a concentration aura. I'm sure that will increase your dps more in fights with random dmg, since the hit is wasted assuming you have a shpriest or moonkin.
I actually prefer to gear for 10% arcane hit for this very reason (1% from draenei as well).
Thanks, done.... good idea.
I think spirit is going to have to go by the wayside with Student of the Mind going to 0.
\
On the subject of hit, there is no possible way to not be hitcapped in my opinion.
When not hit capped hit enchants>damage enchants, hit gems>spell damage gems, and Hit food>spell damage food. I have yet to meet a mage that could not get hitcapped by changing these three things.
People seem to forget about this, saying: 'im missing 40 hit rating', while infact they can just get proper consumables.
The point, though, is that the spell dmg enchants, food and gems are all superior to the hit ones. 46spellpower is nearly always going to be superior to 40 hit. Perhaps is there were +hit gems/food/enchants that were equal to the spellpower ones there would be a better choice, but as it is I see no reason to use something inferior simply because people have this "get hitcapped" mantra playing on repeat in their brains.
Actually I think that would be phenomenally bad. The mana cost reduction doesn't seem insignificant, it's not just +hit that is affected.
It doesn't make a huge difference. I did it as arcane and could still sustain fine with Molten Armor up. I guess it also depends on your current gear and mana etc though.
Besides, pushback is a bad idea and a dps loss (like loosing a tick of MBAM making it end early, which also adds reaction time loss before you realize your AM actually ended early)
The point, though, is that the spell dmg enchants, food and gems are all superior to the hit ones.
This is untrue assuming you are using the entire amount of hit on the food/gem/enchant, which given how retardedly easy it is to hit cap may not be likely. It is always going to be better to get your hit from your gear and use the spellpower versions unless for some reason you just hit 80 yesterday and are way off hit cap, point for point then the hit versions are better.
This is untrue assuming you are using the entire amount of hit on the food/gem/enchant, which given how retardedly easy it is to hit cap may not be likely. It is always going to be better to get your hit from your gear and use the spellpower versions unless for some reason you just hit 80 yesterday and are way off hit cap, point for point then the hit versions are better.
While this is the simple questions/answers thread it's not directed at scrubs wearing quest greens. Anyone who has managed a few heroics and time or two through naxx is not going to be rolling with 0 hit. They are probably only going to be a bit short. And at that point 1 hit is not superior to 1 spellpower. So it doesn't make any sense to use 40hit food in place of 46 spellpower food. Or to use a +15 hit enchant instead of a +28 spellpower enchant. If there were +46 hit food to match the +46 spellpower food you might have a point. But the +hit stats are inferior in terms of quantity, if not always in quality. In other words, even if 1 hit = 1 spellpower, +46 spellpower food is better than +40 hit food.
At high levels of gear 1 hit is a good chunk better than 1 spellpower, please don't make me post another rawr screenshot. My point was that at high levels of gear if you somehow aren't hit capped or very close (or over and trying to drop hit) something is wrong with you.
02/03/09, 3:23 PM
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