Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 53

Jonny_Monroe · 03/18/09, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by chainsinthewall

I went with the arcane spec show in the Arcane thread, and i cant seem to get it to work at all. either im not familiar enough with arcane spells and have been getting the abbreviations wrong, or i did something wrong

Without seeing some DPS parses I can't help you much beyond whats in the arcane thread. All I can say is that arcane takes a lot of practice and some intuition. Beyond that just make sure you're doing plenty of raids (PuG or otherwise) to gear up. Theres some easy upgrades as well from rep so keep working on kirin'tor and wyrmrest (robe and boots) and look into some crafted options.

Magelove · 03/18/09, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Riddle

I just leveled my mage. My question is what should I spec for now? My gear is absolutley horrible. Mixture of t4-t5 quality lvl 70 epics and greens/a couple blues. So, at this level of gear what would be the best spec until I gear up a bit?

I would definatley run some heroics first before you start raiding, even if its only 10 man naxx, unless your guild is very leanient i cant see people being too happy gearing someone up who couldnt even be arsed preparing somewhat prior to starting raids.

Run heroics every day, pick up the two heroes items through badges, a belt and maybe a trinket, get the sword from kirin tor rep, get the boots from the wyrmrest accord rep and you should be sufficiently geared to start raiding as a fire or arcane mage, arcane is probably the most forgiving gear wise as it doesnt require much hit rating through gear, whereas ffb spec is a bit easier to play in terms of mana management.

semanteme · 03/18/09, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by chainsinthewall

I went with the arcane spec show in the Arcane thread, and i cant seem to get it to work at all. either im not familiar enough with arcane spells and have been getting the abbreviations wrong, or i did something wrong

I tend to think that Arcane gets easier as you geared up. A fresh level 80 generally don't have enough mana to sustain the AB3AM or AB3ABar3AM rotations, so you'll have to adjust your rotations according to circumstances that are liable to change from fight to fight as your gear improves, and depending on your group compositions.

What did you do though?

chainsinthewall · 03/19/09, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by semanteme

I tend to think that Arcane gets easier as you geared up. A fresh level 80 generally don't have enough mana to sustain the AB3AM or AB3ABar3AM rotations, so you'll have to adjust your rotations according to circumstances that are liable to change from fight to fight as your gear improves, and depending on your group compositions.

What did you do though?

Well, what I did was act an idiot. I miss read AB3 to be 3 consecutive arcane barrage.... *sigh* let me give the correct way a try and we'll see how it goes

I have to admit, I am confused about the 2 points in Frostbite and Ice Shards. The arcane spec doesn't seem to even use frost spells

Kelfar · 03/19/09, 1:06 AM

Originally Posted by chainsinthewall

Well, what I did was act an idiot. I miss read AB3 to be 3 consecutive arcane barrage.... *sigh* let me give the correct way a try and we'll see how it goes

I have to admit, I am confused about the 2 points in Frostbite and Ice Shards. The arcane spec doesn't seem to even use frost spells

Filler points for icy veins. Put them wherever you want.

chainsinthewall · 03/19/09, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

Filler points for icy veins. Put them wherever you want.

Oh. that makes sense then. Do points in those talents help at all with FFB spec?
I went back and tried out the proper rotation for arcane, and I defiantly did not have enough mana to pull it off. Its looking like FFB is the spec that works best for me right now.

Aellex · 03/19/09, 2:00 AM

A really simple one.

Right now, what spec is regarded as the entry-level raiding spec, as far as gear goes? I hear FFB is very crit-dependant, and Arcane requires a bit of mana to sustain.

So, assuming a few crafted epics and blues/greens, would FFB be the easiest to pull off initially?

Kelfar · 03/19/09, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by chainsinthewall

Oh. that makes sense then. Do points in those talents help at all with FFB spec?
I went back and tried out the proper rotation for arcane, and I defiantly did not have enough mana to pull it off. Its looking like FFB is the spec that works best for me right now.

Yes some of the talents are a must have for FFB spec. Iceshards is what gives FFB its amazing crit damage. Piercing Ice and Frost channeling all apply to FFB.

Originally Posted by Aellex

A really simple one.

Right now, what spec is regarded as the entry-level raiding spec, as far as gear goes? I hear FFB is very crit-dependant, and Arcane requires a bit of mana to sustain.

So, assuming a few crafted epics and blues/greens, would FFB be the easiest to pull off initially?

You are probably better off going frost for heroics. Every boss lasts a minute or less and all the pulls are AoE.
Though arcane is just as good for heroics because of the reason fights are very short so arcane spec can pop all your cooldowns and top the meters, and with a 2 minute evocation you can get all your mana back during trash without having to drink. But as you progress into naxx 10 then you should spec FFB.

Isambard · 03/19/09, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by chainsinthewall

Well, what I did was act an idiot. I miss read AB3 to be 3 consecutive arcane barrage.... *sigh* let me give the correct way a try and we'll see how it goes

I have to admit, I am confused about the 2 points in Frostbite and Ice Shards. The arcane spec doesn't seem to even use frost spells

Blizzard is aoe of choice so gets slightly better from Ice Shards. My personal choice is Frost Warding which can give substantial mana regen at Sapphiron (a guild mate once managed 100k from a resisted breath but that's taking it a bit far).

Zigazaha · 03/19/09, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

Yes some of the talents are a must have for FFB spec. Iceshards is what gives FFB its amazing crit damage. Piercing Ice and Frost channeling all apply to FFB.

You are probably better off going frost for heroics. Every boss lasts a minute or less and all the pulls are AoE.
Though arcane is just as good for heroics because of the reason fights are very short so arcane spec can pop all your cooldowns and top the meters, and with a 2 minute evocation you can get all your mana back during trash without having to drink. But as you progress into naxx 10 then you should spec FFB.

Is FFB's success at low gear level because it does better damage than arcane at low gear level or is it simply because its the most mana efficient?

Sinless · 03/19/09, 4:36 PM

Who said FFB is a success at low gear levels? Far from the truth. You need a healthy mix of heroic/10-man epics before you can even start to say, oh, that's nice, look at those hefty crits and swell dps !

If any spec is a success at low gear levels, that would be frost and maybe arcane.

Kelfar · 03/19/09, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Zigazaha

Is FFB's success at low gear level because it does better damage than arcane at low gear level or is it simply because its the most mana efficient?

That's not what I said. I said FFB is successful once you start doing naxx 10, I said frost and arcane are better when you are just starting heroics.

CajunWebMaster · 03/19/09, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

If any spec is a success at low gear levels, that would be frost and maybe arcane.

See I would have to disagree.

First off, Arcane is amazing hard to sustain DPS with low gear level. The possibilities to go OOM are astounding.

As of Frost for raiding at all I disagree. Frost for 5 Mans is acceptable. However Frost for 10 mans I find to be way to low of DPS.

FFB seems to be the most stable DPS with low gear levels. No, you may not be topping the meters but you would be lacking either. As long as your are Raid Hit Capped (Meaning with either FFF or Misery, Horde Side) then FFB would seem to be the better of the Specs to start with for 10 Man Raids.

Averiel · 03/19/09, 6:00 PM

How would one calculate the number of Hot Streak procs that one should get given a X crit rate, Y fight length and Z amount of haste leading up to a 2.5s Fireball cast?

Not sure if its simple math or complicated math, I was never really good at probability.

Pyrates · 03/19/09, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Averiel

How would one calculate the number of Hot Streak procs that one should get given a X crit rate, Y fight length and Z amount of haste leading up to a 2.5s Fireball cast?

Not sure if its simple math or complicated math, I was never really good at probability.

Calculate the number of casts. Multiply that by c^2/(1+c), where c is the crit chance of you fireball (as a decimal, like 0.5).

Muphrid · 03/19/09, 9:00 PM

Solving this problem for a fixed fight length is a wee bit more complicated but fairly simple if we're just talking about Fireballs (or Frostfire Bolts) and Pyroblasts.

$\mbox{total fight length} = T = N_f T_f + N_p T_p$

Knowing that...

$N_p = \frac{c^2}{1+c} N_f$

And...

$T_f = \frac{3}{1+z}$

Which we said was 2.5 in this problem, so...

$T_p = \frac{1.5}{1+z}$

Which is just 2.5/2 = 1.25 in this problem, so...

$T = N_f \left (2.5 + 1.25 \frac{c^2}{1+c} \right)$

Thus...

$N_f = \frac{T}{2.5 + 1.25 c^2/(1+c)} = \frac{(1+c) T}{2.5(1+c) + 1.5c^2}$

And Np (the number of Pyroblasts) follows from above.

xactfoxy · 03/19/09, 9:18 PM

Hi, just a very general question.

Why is my DPS so low?

Armory - Exact

WWS - Patchwerk kill last night.

Last week I was spec'd FFB and managed to pull more DPS on Patchwerk - I've also had a couple of upgrades in that week (Neckpiece, changed boots for Hit etc.)

WWS - Patchwerk as FFB

The other Mage in the raid is always the same spec as me, which makes me wonder if we are both playing this class horribly or if its something else?

Any help would be great as I'm getting sick of seeing these numbers when I see such higher numbers by other mages.

semanteme · 03/19/09, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by xactfoxy

Hi, just a very general question.

Why is my DPS so low?
...
Any help would be great as I'm getting sick of seeing these numbers when I see such higher numbers by other mages.

What are you talking about your DPS is higher than the other mages...

I haven't had much experience reading WWS parses, but it looks to me like you've gained 15 HS procs in both fights but only casted 3 Pyroblasts? Missing instant pyros would be quite detrimental to your DPS, I'd imagine.

semanteme · 03/19/09, 11:36 PM

Accidentally double posted, please delete.

Kelfar · 03/19/09, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by semanteme

What are you talking about your DPS is higher than the other mages...

I haven't had much experience reading WWS parses, but it looks to me like you've gained 15 HS procs in both fights but only casted 3 Pyroblasts? Missing instant pyros would be quite detrimental to your DPS, I'd imagine.

Wrong about that, and like you said you aren't very experienced with reading WWS parses, s/he had 3 pyroblasts *hit* but had 12 *crit* So 15 pyroblasts cast in total. You can see these details by just clicking the pyroblast row, or click the big + sign on the top right.

As an aside, does anyone know how to easily tell how many LB's were cast? I can click the row and see 4 LB crits, and since only the explosion can crit we know s/he cast at least 4, but how would we determine how many were cast that didn't crit? Or would that be the *landed* section?

@xactfoxy, I can't really see anything you are doing wrong, your crit rates are a tad bit low(2-3% lower than what I sometimes get, which could change your dps slightly) I don't really see anything else that is wrong though.

xactfoxy · 03/20/09, 12:12 AM

Thanks for the replies.

So for the 2-3% crit difference what kind of DPS are you pulling on Patch?

Its just that top DPS on Patchwerk just for our server by a mage is 6248

He has a similar spec, and about 200 more SP, most other stats are very similar.

Armory here

Is this just a case of RNG? Group composition?

WoW meter online of his 6248 DPS

*edit* - GG he was Arc

*edit 2* Found an entry of him doing 6012 as 18/53/0 - Here!

Kelfar · 03/20/09, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by xactfoxy

Thanks for the replies.

So for the 2-3% crit difference what kind of DPS are you pulling on Patch?

Its just that top DPS on Patchwerk just for our server by a mage is 6248

He has a similar spec, and about 200 more SP, most other stats are very similar.

Armory here

Is this just a case of RNG? Group composition?

WoW meter online of his 6248 DPS

*edit* - GG he was Arc

*edit 2* Found an entry of him doing 6012 as 18/53/0 - Here!

Our last naxx raid which was 2 weeks ago, I think I did 5700 dps. Something around that, as FFB spec. Group composition may be part of it, do you have a moonkin, elemental shaman, shadowpriest,ect? RNG also plays a big roll in FFB and FB specs since they are so crit dependent.

hypetech · 03/20/09, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

Wrong about that, and like you said you aren't very experienced with reading WWS parses, s/he had 3 pyroblasts *hit* but had 12 *crit* So 15 pyroblasts cast in total. You can see these details by just clicking the pyroblast row, or click the big + sign on the top right.

As an aside, does anyone know how to easily tell how many LB's were cast? I can click the row and see 4 LB crits, and since only the explosion can crit we know s/he cast at least 4, but how would we determine how many were cast that didn't crit? Or would that be the *landed* section?

@xactfoxy, I can't really see anything you are doing wrong, your crit rates are a tad bit low(2-3% lower than what I sometimes get, which could change your dps slightly) I don't really see anything else that is wrong though.

You can see the detailed living bomb information for a source like this:

Wow Web Stats

xactfoxy · 03/20/09, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

Our last naxx raid which was 2 weeks ago, I think I did 5700 dps. Something around that, as FFB spec. Group composition may be part of it, do you have a moonkin, elemental shaman, shadowpriest,ect? RNG also plays a big roll in FFB and FB specs since they are so crit dependent.

Yes, we had a Moonkin, Ele Shaman and a Shadow Priest.

Moonkin Aura was up 100% of the fight
Elemental Oath was up 88% of the fight
Misery was up 19% of the time, must be a bug in WWS as SW:P was up 91% of the fight.

So I guess I might have to just put it down to a little bit of gear and RNG, will start levelling JCing tonight if I'm free, should net me another 60 or so SP.

*edit* crunched some numbers on LB for that Patchwerk attempt -

So after chucking this in Excel, I can gather that I had Living bomb down for approximately 21.049 seconds of the fight which lasted 3'00.293 or (180.293 seconds) which equates to 159.244 seconds of uptime or 88.314% uptime. Need to work on that.

My quickest re-apply of LB after the explosion was 0.003 seconds my longest was 3.978 seconds (not including engage of boss, which starts at hunter pull). Guess that just comes down to preference of casts.

0.003 seconds is nice with a 300+ ping, however 4 seconds is way too much, I'll have a look and see why I screwed that up and re-edit.

*edit #2*

21:29'29.991	Exact Living Bomb hits Patchwerk for 2023 Fire. (199 Resisted)
21:29'30.147	Exact gains Hot Streak.
21:29'30.349	Patchwerk is afflicted by Ignite.
21:29'30.895	Exact gains 79 Mana from Master of Elements.
21:29'30.895	Exact gains 186 Mana from Master of Elements.
21:29'31.020	Patchwerk suffers 339 Fire damage from Exact Pyroblast. (33 Resisted)
21:29'31.921	Exact Hot Streak was removed from Exact.
21:29'32.244	Exact Scorch hits Patchwerk for 3847 Fire. (Critical)
21:29'32.689	Patchwerk suffers 2209 Fire damage from Exact Ignite.
21:29'33.142	Exact Pyroblast hits Patchwerk for 10323 Fire. (Critical)
21:29'33.161	Exact gains 78 Mana from Master of Elements.
21:29'33.969	Patchwerk is afflicted by Living Bomb.

Pyro then Scorch, probably should of used the first GCD to re-apply LB, then scorch then Pyro. L2P imo. =\

semanteme · 03/21/09, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

Wrong about that, and like you said you aren't very experienced with reading WWS parses, s/he had 3 pyroblasts *hit* but had 12 *crit* So 15 pyroblasts cast in total. You can see these details by just clicking the pyroblast row, or click the big + sign on the top right.

Thanks, WWS makes a lot more sense to me now