Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 53

cbags · 01/14/09, 9:09 PM

I believe it's been stated that they are fixing the pushback reductio issue with IV & FFB in 3.0.8

mesullivan · 01/15/09, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by TheFairey

I hunted around and there was a comment elsewhere about that particular diamond equating to 150-200 DPS, could I then reverse that to work out the equivalent +dmg and how was a value of 150-200 determined?

Not sure where to find the detail, and I haven't worked it out very cleanly, but I don't buy that number, as far as currently available gear goes, and certainly not for pre-raid gear levels.

One difficulty is that the skyflare diamond scales with gear, so any number a theorycrafter comes up with is unlikely to be correct for your gear. Rawr is your friend if you want something more than rough guesses.

That said, 150-200 seems like an overestimate. Looking at the simulators out there, a mage in best possible gear is maxing out at around 5500 dps, if *all* of that was crits and ignites, the 3% would be worth 165 dps, and the 21 crit would be worth another 25-30, to get close to 200 dps.

But of course, it's not all crits and ignites, A typical WWS probably has around 2/3-3/4 of the damage from ignites and crits, so I get an upper bound with current gear of around 150.

Still, that's crazy good, eliminating any non-meta heads from contention for the most part, and it's still worth around 65-75 dps with preraid gear, which has a similar effect (any remotely decent lvl 70 BC meta head will outperform (almost?) all lvl 80 non-meta gear).

Again, a spellpower conversion changes with your gear, so I can't come up with a firm number. Of your 3 key scaling dps stats as a frostfire mage (sp crit haste), the more you stack of each one, the more valuable the other two become. So at preraid gear levels, spellpower is worth a bit less than 1 dps, but at maxed gear level, it's worth closer to 1.5 (all depending on how much crit and haste you have at each level). Once again, if you want exact numbers, rawr is your friend.

♦ nathanbp · 01/15/09, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by mesullivan

Not sure where to find the detail, and I haven't worked it out very cleanly, but I don't buy that number, as far as currently available gear goes, and certainly not for pre-raid gear levels.

One difficulty is that the skyflare diamond scales with gear, so any number a theorycrafter comes up with is unlikely to be correct for your gear. Rawr is your friend if you want something more than rough guesses.

That said, 150-200 seems like an overestimate. Looking at the simulators out there, a mage in best possible gear is maxing out at around 5500 dps, if *all* of that was crits and ignites, the 3% would be worth 165 dps, and the 21 crit would be worth another 25-30, to get close to 200 dps.

But of course, it's not all crits and ignites, A typical WWS probably has around 2/3-3/4 of the damage from ignites and crits, so I get an upper bound with current gear of around 150.

Still, that's crazy good, eliminating any non-meta heads from contention for the most part, and it's still worth around 65-75 dps with preraid gear, which has a similar effect (any remotely decent lvl 70 BC meta head will outperform (almost?) all lvl 80 non-meta gear).

Again, a spellpower conversion changes with your gear, so I can't come up with a firm number. Of your 3 key scaling dps stats as a frostfire mage (sp crit haste), the more you stack of each one, the more valuable the other two become. So at preraid gear levels, spellpower is worth a bit less than 1 dps, but at maxed gear level, it's worth closer to 1.5 (all depending on how much crit and haste you have at each level). Once again, if you want exact numbers, rawr is your friend.

In my optimal Frostfire gear setup with all raid buffs, the 3% crit bonus on the CSF is worth 195.25 dps in Rawr. The crit rating boosts it to 226.24. [Nether Runner's Cowl] with CSF is above any level 80 helm without a meta socket. The bonus increases your total damage from crits by 5% in frostfire spec (slightly more with 4T7), see the first post in The Frostfire Bolt Thread for details.

Swindley · 01/15/09, 2:10 PM

mesullivan:
It scales multiplicatively. Meaning it's not 3% extra, it takes frostfirebolt crits from 315% to 330.75%, so a huge DPS increase.
Check the frostfire bolt thread for more info.

Actually, as said before,a t4 helm with meta socket is better than a lvl 80 one without apparently.

Rhayn · 01/15/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by clavarnway

<OT>

As a tank it really freaks me out when I hear MI's die. I frantically look around to see who's dead and why but Grid doesn't show anybody dead.

Funny you mention that. I was having a conversation with a friend over vent, discussing how Mirror Images have the potential to LOWER raid DPS due to physiological reasons. It's simply a moral killer to hear that death noise when an attempt is going really well and is actually quite distracting if you are "in the zone".

Also as a raid leader, sometimes I yell at other mages to "get with the group" and then realize it's their mirror image standing in the AOE / whatnot. Embarrassing on my part, but interesting to note how distracting they can be sometimes.

regolith · 01/15/09, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by mesullivan

That said, 150-200 seems like an overestimate. Looking at the simulators out there, a mage in best possible gear is maxing out at around 5500 dps, if *all* of that was crits and ignites, the 3% would be worth 165 dps, and the 21 crit would be worth another 25-30, to get close to 200 dps.

Note that on Loatheb I have 100%+ crit chance with a spore on me, and I rocked 6k dps last night. Just FYI. That was with just loading FFB and hitting pyro every time it procced with no regard for munching or anything else.

Swindley · 01/15/09, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by regolith

Note that on Loatheb I have 100%+ crit chance with a spore on me, and I rocked 6k dps last night. Just FYI. That was with just loading FFB and hitting pyro every time it procced with no regard for munching or anything else.

Same here, just did Loatheb 20 minutes ago with 6022DPS overall in the fight. I also drops LB from the rotation on Loatheb and pretty much do the same as you do.
My critchance with frostfire is something like 110% in that fight actually, but I still keep up scorch to help the other dps casters with less crit than the mages. It doesnt cost you much DPS and increases overall raiddps, even if you don't need the debuff yourself.

Offtopic, with 2 retri paladins and a shpriest, I could hardly make a dent in my mana bar on any Naxxfight (in the 4 wings we did tonight), which makes me optimistic about the 19/52 build I'm planning after patch! I guess I'll wait and see how it does with less optimal conditions.

Gwendoline · 01/15/09, 6:15 PM

On the same token. I apply my LB each time I can, I completely understand its value.
I'm assuming the higher your haste the lower the return of LB relative to FFB ( faster cast ).

So reading these few last post, i was wondering if anyone theory crafted at which level of haste FFB spam vs LB+FFB breaks even ? I guess with haste affecting the GCD it may be an unattainable level but still interesting.

♦ nathanbp · 01/15/09, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gwendoline

On the same token. I apply my LB each time I can, I completely understand its value.
I'm assuming the higher your haste the lower the return of LB relative to FFB ( faster cast ).

So reading these few last post, i was wondering if anyone theory crafted at which level of haste FFB spam vs LB+FFB breaks even ? I guess with haste affecting the GCD it may be an unattainable level but still interesting.

Theory Craft-o-Matic unfortunately doesn't support haste values over 100%, but it appears that at around 120% haste (well less than a 1 second GCD) casting FFB is more dps than Living Bomb. For FFB to clip the GCD you'd need 200% haste unless my math is horribly wrong.

Xmasman · 01/16/09, 4:13 AM

Originally Posted by Swindley

Same here, just did Loatheb 20 minutes ago with 6022DPS overall in the fight. I also drops LB from the rotation on Loatheb and pretty much do the same as you do.
My critchance with frostfire is something like 110% in that fight actually, but I still keep up scorch to help the other dps casters with less crit than the mages. It doesnt cost you much DPS and increases overall raiddps, even if you don't need the debuff yourself.

Offtopic, with 2 retri paladins and a shpriest, I could hardly make a dent in my mana bar on any Naxxfight (in the 4 wings we did tonight), which makes me optimistic about the 19/52 build I'm planning after patch! I guess I'll wait and see how it does with less optimal conditions.

We made Loatheb and i think with LB it is still more dps, like here with 6313 and i had only 81% crit with FFB
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Carnivean · 01/16/09, 4:30 AM

Mh all the DPS values are pretty low, atleast do 7k DPS @Loatheb before posting the WWS logs.

LB has one negative side at Loatheb, it's an instant cast, that means it's more affected by your latency. The positive side is, that it could prevent ignite munching, in the end it is a personal choice and it really doesn't matter. Loatheb is such an easy boss and the situation with 100% will propably never happen again in this expansion atleast, so it really doesn't matter which rotation does 1% more dmg (it can matter on Sar3D or other challenging conetnt).

Sinless · 01/16/09, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by manly

I never cast LB during icy veins/lust.

Manly, what is the point in this unless you are hitting the 1sec GCD? Even if you are, say 0.1-0.2sec below GCD, wouldn't LB still be a DPS increase?

Rustyshrapnel · 01/16/09, 12:19 PM

I've got a quick question regarding tying in potion usage in raids. I currently run two macros...one ties in Combustion, IV, MI (in that order) and the other ties in (currently) a haste pot in addition to Comb/IV/MI. My question is...is the haste pot the smartest thing to tie into that macro or should I be utilizing something else like a Wild Magic pot or a Mana Gem during that combo?

My thought is that the point of stacking hastes is to get the max benefit out of something that's non-haste, like an on-use trinket (which I do not have, using forge ember/sundial atm) or some other spellpower boost. On burn burn burn fights like 3DS we get Heroism straightaway on Tenebron to get him down as quickly as possible, and I'd think that Hero in addition to the IV would make a Wild Magic or Mana Gem more effective in that situation than using another haste item.

cbags · 01/16/09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

Manly, what is the point in this unless you are hitting the 1sec GCD? Even if you are, say 0.1-0.2sec below GCD, wouldn't LB still be a DPS increase?

I would be assuming that the time for the LB to tick off and detonate it's not going to do nearly the damage that casting 5 FFB's/Pyro's in that time...the mob might even die before the last tick of LB.

manly · 01/16/09, 12:56 PM

Try on malganis typical 1k-3k lag. But even if we were somehow lagless, I still probably wouldn't do it. Thing is, almost always lust/IV will be coupled with haste pot, at which point you have ~1k haste. 1.5 / (1 + 1000/32.78998947/100) / 1.3 / 1.2 = 0.74s cast time. And if you have no haste potion for some mundane reason (I mean shit happens), then you get 0.83s cast time. Then you have to take into account the (current) reduced HS proc chance (or rather, its not reduced, but its delayed), and the fact that you pay an extra latency cost (major reason I wouldn't do it).

Its a whole different story once LB can proc HS though.