Assuming you can devote your entire attention to being ready for multiple HS from the 4pc T8 you have plenty enough time to decide which button to hit (fireball or HS again). You are sitting on global after the initial pyro, that is over a second to determine and hit the right button. Remember also the timer doesn't reset so even though they are somewhat rare screwing up trip or quad procs because you cast fireball and ran out of time is lost dps.

The latest patch (3.1.2) re-ignited the "who will provide the crit-debuff" in our 25-man raids. Locks? Or mages?

As a mage, I clearly know the disadvantages of having to keep the debuff up. Especially on the rare occasion where we have only one mage in the raid, combined with a lot of target swapping, it becomes a real chore. But even with 2 mages on multi-target fights I can't help but feel that a warlock can do a better job at it. This is all assuming that no mage will use the Scorch-glyph.

In the previous patch we (as a guild) came to the conclusion that we'd let the locks do it, but with the arrival of 3.1.2, we're back where we started. Does anyone know of a thread (i've been looking for ages, but can't seem to find one, although I have a feeling this has probably been calculated in detail somewhere) where the losses in DPS per class/spec/raid are shown? And even better... a comparison between 3.1 and 3.1.2?

Why has the discussion resurfaced? What changed?

Locks have gotten a destruction buff.

The debuff comes from the destruction tree. Does it make casting the spell worthless to them now?

Only Affliction or deep Demonology warlocks actually cast Shadow Bolt. Deep Destruction and the Demonology/Destruction hybrid specs use fire spells. SampleOutputT7 - simulationcraft - Google Code has spell breakdown details if you're interested.

Pretty much the same as Unbind said. You can spam your HS key after having one then still have time to que a fireball if you don't get another one. Power Auras is your friend here. Haven't had 6 in a row yet but 3-4 in a row is definitely not uncommon with the number of HS you get in a raid night.

Does it work to double-dip Focus Magic to gain 6% crit in actual fight by rotating Focus Magics between mages?

Mage A buffs Mage B, and Mage B buffs Mage A. That way they both got the initial 3% Focus magic buffs, and when one starts criting, the other one gets another 3% which makes it 6%. Does it stack?

Yes, it stacks.

FWIW, I still use EBB2 (and not EBB3). And yes it is truly awesome.

I think there is a simple solution to this problem. I made a post on the official forums suggesting that they incorporate shadow mastery into the bane talent since it is part of every warlock raiding build.

How important is an Elemental Shaman to Mage dps vs other casters? Does it make a huge difference in our numbers?

For us...yes. Simply. For more detailed answer download RAWR, load up your toon, and remove all but your own buffs, then add JUST the shaman buffs. For my toon on a 5 minute fight it's something like 900dps

As opposed to having none of their buffs at all? Or as opposed to having another Shaman dropping caster totems?

If you have a diverse mix of classes and specs, the Elemental Shaman is providing no unique buffs. In order to totally replace one you need a non-Elemental Shaman (5% spell haste totem, heroism), a Moonkin (5% crit buff), a ret pally (or possibly a rogue) (3% crit debuff), and a deep demonology warlock (spellpower buff to replace Totem of Wrath, although Flametongue Totem is a sucky replacement if you don't have one). I wouldn't say any of those buffs is significantly better for a mage that it is for other casters. You can play with MMO-Champion RaidComp to see what your raid is missing as well (although it may not be totally updated for 3.1).

How much DPS do you actually risk losing from applying scorch? Also compared to the rest of the glyphs would it be worth sacrificing anything for the scorch glyph?

I ask these things cause atm like some of you I'm sure the locks in my guild refuse to use ISB and as a mage I refuse to have to scorch.. As I'm a lot higher dps as any of them wether their using their high dps spec or ISB..

Alright so I have been arcane for awhile now and am trying to decide if I should move over to FFB or Torment, obviously I would have to change some of my gear around for either spec as I am set up for haste and spellpower over crit and hit for reasons we all know.

I just wonder if I would wind up doing better damage (usually in the top 3-5 as is) then what I am doing as arcane. I know rawr is good for checking this in theory, but I am just wondering how big a gain I would really net if I switched over to say FFB at first, and then to torment maybe later as I obtained more hit gear. (again been passing on hit gear since I was at cap, unless it was a marked improvement in other areas also.)

Well the thing is, we had a ISB lock before patch 3.1.2, but with the change the lock that was our ISB QQ'd and went to the other spec.. With officers yelling at mages for not having imp scorch (cause they've obviously never played a raiding mage or lock before and have no idea what their talkin bout) I'd like to get some hard evidence that show which is better to have..

Well, if your officers are yelling at mages for not having imp scorch, good for those officers. Why you would pass up 3% crit at that point in the tree would baffle me as well. If they are saying you should glyph it however then there may or may not be a disconnect.

The debuff is trivial to keep up on some fights and near impossible on others as well as obviously a personal dps loss for almost all. It is very, very fight dependent though and while you can model the rotation easily enough I don't think that provides a clear picture. Still, I'll leave it to someone else with more time if they wish to do so. For me it just comes down to dealing with what is available and when our SB warlock is not present, I scorch and I grumble a bit. I have never seen a need to replace a glyph for it though and in any Hard mode where it would be a big issue we would have to concern ourselves with encounter-specific specs anyhow.

There lies the issue.. They want us to glyph for it.. You can't have a 20/51/0 spec without imp scorch... They complain that we don't use it, when we usually rely on the warlock with his debuff.. Now with this patch it just messed everything up.. Better yet they'll complain when your dps is low.. So they can eaither A) have a lock that doesn't do much dps anyways have imp SB, or B) have a mage with a very nerfed dps because he has to waste time with scorch debuff.. Which is why i'd like to see some hard evidence that states ISB > Scorch for raid encounters.. Thus ending this silly fued..

Simcraft from 3.1.0: SampleOutputT7 - simulationcraft - Google Code
Warlock of May 5th: http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...ost_3_1_specs/ (_DG means Doomguard summon)

1) 240/255 DPS loss from maintaining Glyphed Scorch. With a Frostfire Spec, you lose 55 DPS from maintaining Scorch and 185 DPS from the missing FFB Glyph. Fire loses the 200 DPS from the Glyph instead.
2) As of 3.1.0 Demo/Ember > Haunt/Ruin > Meta/Ruin were 100 DPS (1.5%) apart, Chaos/Aegis was 400 DPS below the lowest of them. This is also the only spec that got buffed in 3.1.2

3) The Warlock Sim of May 5th pushes Destro way above the other choices. 400 DPS above Haunt, 750 DPS above Ruin, assuming no Doomguards by anyone. With the current gear levels and the bug fixes (affected by 30% Spi>Dmg, but still not the +9% from Demonic Aegis), Demonic Pact should now outscale Totem of Wrath.

4) Assuming 8 casters and a 1.5 DPS per point of Spell Power, you'd need an average +63 spell power of Demonic Pact over Totem of Wrath to get into the Meta > Chaos zone. Taking the DPS loss from Scorch+Glyph into account, this drops down to +42 spell power on average. That's a consistent 3220 Spell Power throughout a fight (before the bugged +9% Demonic Aegis). They should be around there, or at least pretty close. Assuming they can use their pet properly.


Conclusion:
1) You're likely better off taking one for the team right now and use the Scorch Glyph right now, and Flame Throwing for that matter.
2) You should designate a Demonology Warlock and gear them up specifically to stack spell power. Let them lock up Spell Power Equivalence values for their spec, and then cut those values in half because SP scales with another 10% for the whole raid. Have that person learn playing as Demo/Pet spec and on they are geared, you have the ideal raid buffer.

The only caveat is that I don't know if there have been any PTR changes since May 5th, or any issues in the spec tables.

The other caveat is what I alluded to before.

Encounters are specific and Ulduar hard modes are not tank and spanks largely. Initially it looks like you'd be an idiot to make mages scorch on Hodir for example. A nicely formed raid can easily have 10-20k dps mages for hodir and frankly, you want the upper bound if you are going for hard mode.

Still, Singe is such a big aspect that applying it off scorch is actually a good thing. You want to hit a 25 stack very early and keep it. Hell, with the debuff I might even need to wonder if spam scorch is not better were not the timer easily taken care of with standard play. Well, and the other buffs of course

I don't quite understand how using a scorch glyph will be more dps than using 4 extra scorches and keeping your FB/FFB glyph on any given fight. If we look at fights in Ulduar, more than half the fights require almost no target switching. And the ones they do still have pretty significant dps time on the scorched mob.