Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 82

Roywyn · 03/03/09, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

1) A friend of mine once proposed an interesting thought experiment that showed that it's quite impossible to prefer having neither amp or dampen on the target. It goes something like this: Imagine that rather than buffless being thet baseline and amen/dampen being buffs, you have, say, dampen as your baseline. Then you can either amp once to bufflessness or amp twice up to current amp. In any situation where you want to put amp on, ie any situation where dampen is not desirable, then since amp is a worthwhile tradeoff you should be willing to use it again and go up to putting amp on the target.

2) Both of these situations are very difficult to do and rely on very tight balancing. In most cases, the tank deaths are from healer-mana xor one-shot. If the problem is one-shots you use dampen, if the problem is healer mana you hit the whiteboard to find which is better depending on spell coefficients.

1) That's a great argument that I've used myself a lot to convince tanks to not click it off. Just because it makes perfect sense and is logical doesn't mean in convinces people however! If your guild or your guild's tanks don't want it, you're in a long process to make them get used to it. It's easier to win your healers over because they easier trust you say it doesn't increase most damage (since the damage intake isn't exactly their job) and bigger healing numbers don't exactly make them unhappy!

Tanks are usually the tougher nut to crack since the damage intake is their domain. You need a certain amount of trust and knowledge authority to win them over.

2) That's not exactly true about one-shots. Often, one-shots have a timer or cast time, so you can use shield on the tank. Amplify increases damage by 240. Healing is increased by 255, that means a shield is increased by 206 untalented, 237 with 17 Disc and 354 with 50 Disc. There also are damage reduction effects for the tank to consider.

So, if you're able to predict and shield your tank though spikes, the spike doesn't really increase with Amplify Magic (if 17/0/54 is viable or a Disc Priest is around). The remaining major factor is encounter multipliers, and whether they multiply the Amplify penalty or not. Buffs that increase magic damage done or debuffs that increase magic damage taken. That's where you have to look at logs and trust your gut feeling.

willem11 · 03/03/09, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by Thegoodman

The burst damage on the drakes combined with the threat reduction talents makes Arcane especially good for Sarth 3D since the drake portions are definitely a DPS race.

Arcanes threat reduction talents are useless on sart+3, the dragons are tauntable so there is no way imaginary you can possibly overagro. I pop all cooldowns+mirror image on tenebron, when mirror image ends im on about 150%+ of our warrior tanks threat, all he does then is mocking blow and all agro problems are sorted. You might overagro while aoeing small adds but arcane talents dont work on flamstrike/blizzard anyway.

About the burst, I believe ffb has better burst then arcane.

♦ nathanbp · 03/03/09, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by willem11

Arcanes threat reduction talents are useless on sart+3, the dragons are tauntable so there is no way imaginary you can possibly overagro. I pop all cooldowns+mirror image on tenebron, when mirror image ends im on about 150%+ of our warrior tanks threat, all he does then is mocking blow and all agro problems are sorted. You might overagro while aoeing small adds but arcane talents dont work on flamstrike/blizzard anyway.

About the burst, I believe ffb has better burst then arcane.

If the drake turns and breaths the melee, it's a wipe. Just because the mob is tauntable doesn't mean that out threating him isn't a problem. Our warriors (and fire mages) have threat problems at least sometimes on the first drake for Sarth.

I also don't know how you can think FFB + Icy Veins (+ nearly useless Combustion) is better burst than Arcane + AP + Icy Veins.

Omgimcrap · 03/03/09, 11:15 AM

I am sure I have seen a post somewhere that suggests the preferred orser for badge upgrades but I can't find it anymore or I was imagining it!
I've used my first 25 badges on the Ward of the violet citadel. I am coming up to 40 badges soon and am wondering whether to keep saving for the chest or whether to splash out on trinkets?
Current chest is [Pattern: Ebonweave Robe]

and trinkets are [Cannoneer's Fuselighter] and [Mendicant's Charm]

I am only raiding 2 times a week and we are still progressing at 3 - 4 bosses each time so am unsure what upgrades may or may not be coming my way but I know you can't rely on drops.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks

Thegoodman · 03/03/09, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Omgimcrap

I am sure I have seen a post somewhere that suggests the preferred orser for badge upgrades but I can't find it anymore or I was imagining it!
I've used my first 25 badges on the Ward of the violet citadel. I am coming up to 40 badges soon and am wondering whether to keep saving for the chest or whether to splash out on trinkets?
Current chest is [Pattern: Ebonweave Robe]

and trinkets are [Cannoneer's Fuselighter] and [Mendicant's Charm]

I am only raiding 2 times a week and we are still progressing at 3 - 4 bosses each time so am unsure what upgrades may or may not be coming my way but I know you can't rely on drops.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks

There are threads for "Best non-raiding mage gear" and "Optimal Mage Gear" that will tell you all you need to know about gear. Use Rawr to determine which upgrade you should get next.

Dorrinal · 03/03/09, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by willem11

Arcanes threat reduction talents are useless on sart+3, the dragons are tauntable so there is no way imaginary you can possibly overagro. I pop all cooldowns+mirror image on tenebron, when mirror image ends im on about 150%+ of our warrior tanks threat, all he does then is mocking blow and all agro problems are sorted. You might overagro while aoeing small adds but arcane talents dont work on flamstrike/blizzard anyway.

About the burst, I believe ffb has better burst then arcane.

You'd make your drake tank and whelp tank much happier if you don't use your cooldowns on Tenebron so your threat's under control. Save your Mirror Image for AoE so the whelps and blazes stay in one place. Use cooldowns on Shadron instead -- trust.

If you think FFB has better burst than Arcane you are greatly overestimating the value of Combustion.

willem11 · 03/03/09, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by nathanbp

If the drake turns and breaths the melee, it's a wipe. Just because the mob is tauntable doesn't mean that out threating him isn't a problem. Our warriors (and fire mages) have threat problems at least sometimes on the first drake for Sarth.

I also don't know how you can think FFB + Icy Veins (+ nearly useless Combustion) is better burst than Arcane + AP + Icy Veins.

In the ~100 attempts it took us to kill sart+3 I overagroed on almost every attempt, causing the warrior to mocking blow immedeatly. I think my warrior tank knows exactly when my mirror image fades and I have never seen any of our melee die because of this reason. So I really believe the risk of the melee dying is very, very small. Or maiby the melee in my raid possition themselves better then yours, or my tank is better. Anyway the taunt gives the tank about 50% more threat making the overagro issues of our other dpsers far smaller also. So I believe overagoing/taunting surely is a good thing in this case. My tank was totally happy with me overagroing, I asked him multiple times and he said he had it totally under controll.

Apart from this, combustion is far from useless, it gives me 2 hotstreak procs and 5 crits (3x ffb 1x pyro 1x living bomb) exactly when my +damage trinket procs+other cooldowns are up, this is awesome. I also believe ffb scales better with haste cooldowns then arcane does.

Originally Posted by Dorrinal

You'd make your drake tank and whelp tank much happier if you don't use your cooldowns on Tenebron so your threat's under control. Save your Mirror Image for AoE so the whelps and blazes stay in one place. Use cooldowns on Shadron instead -- trust.

We cannot kill tenebron in time if we do not use cooldowns/heroism on tenebron. So ye.

Anyway im talking about 10 man here, 3 tanks, 3 healers, 4 dps. It might be totally different in 25 man. Maiby thats why we have different opinions on whats best. Not sure how the dps requirement on Tenebron differs in the 25 man.

cbags · 03/03/09, 1:07 PM

If your tank has a relatively recently upgraded Omen...they can see your "virtual threat" as if the images weren't there, or at least I can see my own. I know when to pop invis, so I would assume they can see you as well.

Kelfar · 03/03/09, 1:20 PM

I also have an issue with regards to 10 man sarth 3 drake and threat issues.

We are currently running this set up for 10 mans, we have had about 5-6 hours of attempts and are on the cusp of getting it and then people start playing sloppy because its late and we have to quit for the night.

This is the group setup.

Prot Warrior on drakes
Prot Pally on whelps/blazes
Feral Druid on Sarth
Moonkin
Me(FFB mage)
2 Demo warlocks
Holy priest drake tank healer/aoe during twilight torment
Resto Shaman raid healing
Holy paladin sarth healing

The problem I am finding is that what we do is on tenebron is pop our CD's and potions but not our bloodlust, but if I don't use mirror image I am going to pull threat, so I save mirror image for about 50% on tenebron and then he will be dead before the threat is back on me. I talked to my warrior tank about this and he said to use mirror image during shadron because he can just taunt on tenebron, but the only time I am coming close to pulling aggro is the last 10% or so on tenebron when shadron has just come down and he is trying to pick them all up and I would rather not pull aggro and get breathed on.

AOE aggro isn't an issue because the 2 demo warlocks pop demon form and kill the whelps/blazes while the moonkin pops starfall and the moonkin and I just single target dps shadron while my LB helps take care of the whelps.

Is there anything I can do to control my threat? Does my tank just need to "L2P"?

We get tenebron down fast enough so that there isn't a second wave of whelps but it just seems that if I didn't have the threat issues I could burn a bit harder. Also if there are any suggestions for the group composition I would love to hear them.

♦ nathanbp · 03/03/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

Sarth 10 man stuff

From my experience running 2 healer 3 tank Sarth 10 as FFB, I never had aggro problems past the first drake, so I would use mirror image there. (On a side note, are you getting Vigilance?) Are you really in danger of pulling aggro off Shadron? I guess with our setup I am AOEing adds while the tank builds threat on drake 2 while you get to hit it right away. Also with 2 healers pausing dps during twilight torment is pretty common, so the tank has a lot of time to build threat over me. In your situation I'd probably use MI on Tenebron and save invis for Shadron if you have to use it. Or just get Hand of Salv from the pally for the end of Tenebron.

Taja · 03/04/09, 5:09 AM

I pop cooldowns on first drake to get some extra damage in, aoe damage is not that important in the fight I think. After drake is down and firewall went away we move the adds on shadron anyway so after 1 flamestrike blizzard and a LB on shadron they all die. If you aoe pre-flame wall you might have moving issues.

macbeet · 03/04/09, 5:42 AM

Your Tenebron tank can put Vigilance on the Sartharion Tank, he will then be able to Taunt nearly non-stop.

drowsy · 03/04/09, 1:35 PM

It was mentioned in the FFB thread to stack Illustration on Sartharion before Tenebron lands. Have people given much consideration to not doing that to ensure that Embrace of the Spider is off cooldown for the drakes? I'd always figured that having the extra spider proc (505 spellpower, 10 seconds) would outweigh the cost of ramping Illustration (average 100 SP across 10 spell hits), especially given how fast arcane and scorch can build it.

Enthorn · 03/04/09, 2:21 PM

Tenebron takes 30 seconds to land. If Sundial/Embrace procs on the first Ice Lance on Sartharion, then expected it to proc 45 seconds later, or 15 seconds after Tenebron has landed (55 seconds later, or 25 seconds after, if you want to be realistic with proc chances).

The math in my head says it's better to have 200 spell power on every Frostfire Bolt and still get Sundial/Embrace in the last 30 seconds of Bloodlust than have 20, 40, 60, etc. spell power and Sundial/Embrace in first 15 seconds of Bloodlust. Sure, it's stacked with Potion of Wild Magic and Icy Veins, but if it really makes that much of difference, just save all your cooldowns till 15 seconds after Tenebron is down, then use them all at once:

/cast Icy Veins
/cast Combustion
/use Potion of Wild Magic
/use Mana Sapphire

I'm not sure how fast the fastest guilds out there kill Tenebron in 10-man, but our less-than-synergized group kills him in about 60-70 seconds average. I suppose if your group is killing him in 30 seconds, then you might go at this completely different, but for any group that takes longer than 45 seconds, the above seems to make sense to me, at least.

the_nell_87 · 03/05/09, 6:03 AM

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I'm levelling my mage (currently at 77), and I'm considering endgame specs. I'm wondering why Torment the Weak is such an important talent in builds like the fireball build? I was under the impression that raid bosses are immune to most slows and snares? Can I pretty much expect 12% more damage on a raid boss in most 25-man setups, or would I be relying on having specific classes/specs there to get any bonus from it?