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Old 03/05/09, 6:20 AM   #1231
Verndroid
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Mage
 
Aszune (EU)
You can pretty much just expect to have the necessary snare for TTW in any 25 main raid environment. The bosses are immune to the snare effect but TTW will still be triggered. For a list of what triggers TTW I recommend doing a search on the forum. It has been mentioned several times.

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Old 03/05/09, 8:37 AM   #1232
Neuroth
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Terenas
Originally Posted by Enthorn View Post
Tenebron takes 30 seconds to land. If Sundial/Embrace procs on the first Ice Lance on Sartharion, then expected it to proc 45 seconds later, or 15 seconds after Tenebron has landed (55 seconds later, or 25 seconds after, if you want to be realistic with proc chances).

The math in my head says it's better to have 200 spell power on every Frostfire Bolt and still get Sundial/Embrace in the last 30 seconds of Bloodlust than have 20, 40, 60, etc. spell power and Sundial/Embrace in first 15 seconds of Bloodlust. Sure, it's stacked with Potion of Wild Magic and Icy Veins, but if it really makes that much of difference, just save all your cooldowns till 15 seconds after Tenebron is down, then use them all at once:

/cast Icy Veins
/cast Combustion
/use Potion of Wild Magic
/use Mana Sapphire

I'm not sure how fast the fastest guilds out there kill Tenebron in 10-man, but our less-than-synergized group kills him in about 60-70 seconds average. I suppose if your group is killing him in 30 seconds, then you might go at this completely different, but for any group that takes longer than 45 seconds, the above seems to make sense to me, at least.
I know some people don't like when when items/talents work a bit different then described but I always thought it was one of the fun parts of WOW. The double dipping frost used to get for hit 6% and more recently the Egg of Mortal Essence. Easter Eggs.

I have an excess of badges so I bought the Egg and the real power of it comes IMO is not just to be a cheap substitute for the Spider trinket but rather to be able to focus the proc as your describing Enthorn. Because Arcane mages can use either Abarr or AM in a rotation you can effectively use it like a /use trinket by holding off casting of AM if you know your about to blow cooldows (AP, Mana Gems). As a Arcane Mage I open with ABX3 and ABarr when Sarth drops.. ignoring MB procs and then once Tenebron drops, blow cooldowns but throw in MB to get the Egg to proc. I can have the two haste (IV and Egg) going at the same time.. lots of damage and a greatly reduced Evo for good measure.

I know its going to change.. but fun for a while :-)

Last edited by Neuroth : 03/06/09 at 8:46 AM.

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Old 03/05/09, 9:34 PM   #1233
Reihert
Von Kaiser
 
Reihert's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Twisting Nether
Hi, I have a question about gems (arcane pve)
Rwars keeps telling me that my meta should be the one that adds 21 crit and 3% more crit dmg (I do have 4 pieces of tier 7,5 so it all stack).
However, I can't see how that beat +21 SP and +2% intelect... anyone can confirm if what is rwar telling me an actual dps increase?

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Old 03/05/09, 9:41 PM   #1234
Kelfar
Piston Honda
 
Kelfar's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Reihert View Post
Hi, I have a question about gems (arcane pve)
Rwars keeps telling me that my meta should be the one that adds 21 crit and 3% more crit dmg (I do have 4 pieces of tier 7,5 so it all stack).
However, I can't see how that beat +21 SP and +2% intelect... anyone can confirm if what is rwar telling me an actual dps increase?
3% crit is way better than any meta gem. Look at the first page of this thread.

Also the 2% int is only better at extremely high intellect values. Something around the realm of 7000 intellect.

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Old 03/06/09, 8:09 AM   #1235
Magelove
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by Reihert View Post
Hi, I have a question about gems (arcane pve)
Rwars keeps telling me that my meta should be the one that adds 21 crit and 3% more crit dmg (I do have 4 pieces of tier 7,5 so it all stack).
However, I can't see how that beat +21 SP and +2% intelect... anyone can confirm if what is rwar telling me an actual dps increase?
If Rawr is telling you that the Chaotic Skyflare is better, then its obviously an increase in dps, Rawr was specifically designed to tell you such things.

On a different note, with the upcoming changes to mage armor and arcane meditation, do any arcane mages have an idea of what we will be changing glyph and talent point wise. By that i mean i can see a few options. Firstly, We take the new 50% mana regen in talents, and replace glyph of mage armor (for those who use it) with glyph of molten armor. Or do we go 70% mana regen with mage armor and glyph, and spend the points from arcane med elsewhere. Im really struggling to decide what would be best. I am however going to try and run current content without either mage armor or arcane meditation to see how i fair first. My gear is somewhat decent-ish, still upgrading in 25 mans. Has anybody found mana problems with dropping all sources of self regen?

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Old 03/06/09, 8:58 AM   #1236
Light4
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
I found it impossible to keep up AB3[ABar,MBAM] with molten armor and 20% self-regen, but sutainable with glyphed mage armor. Due to lag issues I have since changed my playstyle to AB3AM and molten and find it both sustainable and about equal dps.

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Old 03/06/09, 9:44 AM   #1237
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
I used a WWS log of a recent Loatheb fight and filtered out every critical hit. I sorted all of this by spell and entered it into a spreadsheet. I took the total crit damage, actual ignite damage, and expected ignite damage, to find how much ignite damage I had lost.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...tfy19Iy8YC4Wcg
(Don't expect everything in there to make perfect sense. Some parts of it are very disorganized.)

Short summary of a 4:52 Loatheb kill:

Total damage: 1,672,723
Total crit damage: 1,110,935
Actual ignite damage: 392,257
Expected ignite damage: 444,374
Lost ignite damage: 52,117

There was a website months ago that parsed logs and did this same thing, albeit in a much easier manner. It would be interesting to compare the results. It is a significant amount of damage lost.

Currently, I am going through and color-coding everything based on the ignite interaction. The lines in red signify spells whose ignite damage was discarded. The light blue lines show the last ignite damage done before a rolling ignite stops (and these lines are shown in yellow, when a new application of ignite has started).

The far right column has the individual ignite ticks added up, with each being an alternate color to show which amounts are added to the rolling ignite. The bright blue number is the first tick after a new application of ignite. Following this is an alternating green/cyan. Each color shows the groupings of damage that were calculated by the game to reach the actual ignite tick. Then, the actual ignite ticks are highlighted yellow, and matched with their corresponding place in the log.

For instance, you can see that ignite ticked for 6003 damage, and then ticked again for 8619. A number of spells did damage inbetween these two ignite ticks. The spells that were included in the 6003 are colored cyan in this case. The numbers after that are green, and they are the spells that were calculated to reach 8619 damage for the next tick. To break it down:

Between the 6003 tick and the 8619 tick, four spells landed that crit: two frostfire bolts, a pyroblast, and a living bomb explosion:

Frostfire 13,058
Living Bomb 4,589
Frostfire 13,081
Pyroblast 10,443

The ignite damage of all of these is 16,468 (5223+1836+5232+4177). We add all of this up, minus the third Frostfire Bolt (5232) and we get 11,236. We then add in our last ignite tick, which was 6003.

(11236 + 6003) / 2 = 8619.5. And thus we know that the second Frostfire Bolt was the missed one. Of course, you could just look at the time stamps and get the same information:

19:56'41.906 Ignite
19:56'42.864 Frostfire Bolt
19:56'44.302 Living Bomb
19:56'45.335 Frostfire Bolt
19:56'45.399 Pyroblast
19:56'48.007 Ignite

It's not always the second spell that is skipped, nor does it always result in lost damage. Sometimes it can result in an entire ignite tick being added twice.

Last edited by Enthorn : 05/01/09 at 8:52 AM.

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Old 03/06/09, 10:27 AM   #1238
BoogieKnight
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Kul Tiras (EU)
My main in TBC was a deep fire mage, first clearcasting, then icy veins fire spec.

I've seen a lot of FFB and Arcane mages around as of late, and as I don't play my mage anymore, havn't had much chance to test out specs.

My question is, can I still be competative as a deep fire build mage, compared to the FFB / Arcane mages?

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Old 03/06/09, 10:30 AM   #1239
Mynak
Von Kaiser
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Unless you let your Ignite fall off at the end of the fight, you may be missing some of that expected Ignite damage. It's common to build 10k ignites on regular fights, a fight where you effectively have 100% crit rate could easily have an Ignite ticking at the end for large amounts. (This is why I end Loatheb with AB spam for 5s)

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Old 03/06/09, 11:04 AM   #1240
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
That is a valid point Mynak, and one of the things I'm looking at. In this particular case, the ignite debuff does fall off, as noted by its reapplication toward the end. If you look at the last few lines of the spreadsheet, you'll see the last Frostfire Bolt hit Loatheb. This applies Ignite. The calculated ignite damage is 4567. The ignite ticks for 2283, at which point Loatheb dies. Thus, the only ignite damage lost due to this is 2283.

I am working more on the spreadsheet to show the specific areas in which ignite ticks were lost. It will take some time though, so the spreadsheet (notably the last few columns) are not at all accurate. The lost damage, however, is accurate.

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Old 03/06/09, 11:52 AM   #1241
manly
Soda Popinski
 
manly's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
You really ought to use ZIT rather than try and recode the same functionality with a spreadsheet that works outside of the game. At least thats just my opinion.

If you want to have a more contextual and thorough analysis of how the case happens, then again, a spreadsheet is the wrong tool for it.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 03/06/09, 12:10 PM   #1242
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
Enthorn's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
Was ZIT the add-on or the website that parsed logs? Do you have a link to a working version of that program? Unfortunately, I can't do a search for "ZIT" on the forums.

A spreadsheet is all I have at the moment to do the calculations on a large scale. It's just something to kill time for me, rather. It's pretty accurate, but it is time consuming to go through and calculate which individual ignites were eaten. I mean, it's easy to do a running total and see that by this time in the fight, X amount of ignite damage had been lost. But it takes more time to figure out which spells were overwriting others. In that regard, it's sort of a challenge.

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Old 03/06/09, 12:12 PM   #1243
manly
Soda Popinski
 
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Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
ZIT (Zaldinar Ignite Tracker) works in-games. Havent tried it recently but i doubt it wouldnt work. It tells you exactly which ticks were extra ticks, and which were lost. The website you upload to was only if you wanted to compile information together, but by no means required. I don't think i ever got the page to work :/

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 03/06/09, 1:27 PM   #1244
Saphya
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Azshara (EU)
Zaldinar posted a link here: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t30655-w...93/#post914727

But I don't know if that is the most recent version of it.

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Old 03/06/09, 3:17 PM   #1245
Anaxo
King Hippo
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Khaz Modan
Originally Posted by BoogieKnight View Post
My question is, can I still be competative as a deep fire build mage, compared to the FFB / Arcane mages?
In short, yes, if you are referring to the fire TTW spec 18/53. The old TBC fire spec is really FFB now. For playstyle, FFB and fire TTW play exactly the same way, you merely sub out frostfire bolt with fireball. Fire TTW is not a good starting raid spec though, due to its high mana consumption and need for hit.

Praetorian: I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>. That didn't go over too well.
Sebudai: Imagine a combination of Life Grip, Death Grip, Disengage, Typhoon, and Thunderstorm. It would be like the Large Hadron Collider of WoW.

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