The Frostfire Bolt thread (updated 3.2.2)

◊ manly · 11/24/08, 8:49 PM

This is a thread dedicated towards frostfire bolt and frostfire bolt builds specifically. I know for now it looks more like its under construction (and it is), but the main goal for me to post this is to get the points of contention worked out. Also others might like to ask specific questions about the build at the same time, although I think most of it is rather intuitive.

Zaldinar's FFB thread
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Everything you ever wanted to know about FFB.
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Proven Beta Stuff

recent changes (since 3.2?):
Firepower now affects LB dot.

Some numbers

level difference	hit cap % PVE	hit cap % PVP	hit rating PVE (lvl 80)
-4	0%	0%	0
-3	1%	1%	26.23199272
-2	2%	2%	52.46398544
-1	3%	3%	78.69597816
0	4%	4%	104.92797088
+1	5%	5%	131.1599636
+2	6%	6%	157.39195632
+3 (skull level boss)	17%	13%	445.94387624
+4	28%	20%	734.49579616
+5	39%	27%	1023.04771608

Rating	Level 60	Level 70	Level 80
Spell Hit	8	12.61538506	26.23199272
Spell Critical Strike	14	22.07692337	45.90598679
Spell Haste	10	15.76923275	32.78998947

%	Spell Hit Rating (lvl 80)	Typical case	draenai %	Spell Hit with draenai
17%	445.94387624	hit cap	16%	419.71188352
14%	367.24789808	EP or (no EP + misery/improved faerie fire)	13%	341.01590536
11%	288.55191992	EP + misery/improved faerie fire	10%	262.3199272
8%	209.85594176	EP+AF (57/3/11) + misery/improved faerie fire	7%	183.62394904
1%	26.23199272

Spell	Talents / metagem	Crit multiplier (no T7)	Crit multiplier (with 4pcT7)	Note
arcane spell	(no CSD)	150%	152.5%
arcane spell	CSD	154.5%	157.225%
arcane spell	spell power	175%	177.5%
arcane spell	spell power + CSD	181.75%	184.475%
frost spell	ice shards	200%	202.5%
frost spell	ice shards + CSD	209%	211.725%
Fireball/Frostfire bolt	ignite	210%	213.5%
Fireball/Frostfire bolt	ignite + CSD	216.3%	220.115%
Fireball/Frostfire bolt	ignite + burnout	245%	248.5%
Fireball/Frostfire bolt	ignite + burnout + CSD	254.45%	258.265%
Frostfire bolt	ignite + burnout + ice shards	315%	318.5%
Frostfire bolt	ignite + burnout + ice shards + CSD	330.75%	334.565%
--
am (glyphed)	spell power	187.5%	190%
am (glyphed)	spell power + CSD	195.375%	198.1%
blizzard	spell power + 2/3 ice shards	208%	210.5%	57/3/11
blizzard	spell power + 2/3 ice shards + CSD	217.72%	220.445%	57/3/11
blizzard	spell power + 3/3 ice shards	225%	227.5%	56/3/12
blizzard	spell power + 3/3 ice shards + CSD	236.25%	238.975%	56/3/12

(crit multiplier formula listed in the formula section)

Specs - all 0/53/18 variants
Pure single-target dps build. 3/3 World in Flames. No blastwave/dragon's breath. This is generally the 'base' build used from which you make modifications from.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0&version=9551

Typical modifications

1pt ice floes -> frostbite - Ice floes is fairly bad for the build anyway, so might as well max out frostbite for better farming. Keep in mind frostbite will not proc on blizzard without putting at least 1 pt in it.
1pt ice floes -> frostbite, 1pt world in flames -> imp. blizzard - More controlled blizzard dps. Keep in mind World in Flames affects blizzard dps.
1pt world in flames or 1pt frost channeling -> dragon's breath - Dragon's Breath
1pt ice floes -> frostbite, 1pt world in flames -> imp. blizzard, 3pt frost channeling -> shatter - Shatter/blizzard. This change alone isn't too awesome, however, if 2+ mages spec with 3/3 frostbite 1/3 blizzard the results can turn out excellent. Keep in mind you will do 10% more blizzard threat.

Other modifications

I can understand mages cutting out Flame Throwing since FFB is unaffected by the talent. It does mean your scorch/living bomb/pyroblasts are limited by range though.

Playstyle
Generally speaking, the spec works with priorities. Here is what I use, as I point out in the points of contention, I am not 100% sure on them, although remain confident this is accurate.

Living Bomb > Hot Streak pyroblast > (scorch refresh) > ffb

However, this is only the main outline. This is the optimal priority list assuming everything goes according to plan, which needless to say, isn't something you can really count on. Also, you want to prioritize HS-pyro over LB when you have a high probability of losing a HS-pyro proc. This will become particularly good to remember for 4pct8 wearers.

AOE
ranged aoe: living bomb > flame strike (full rank) > flame strike (rank 8) > blizzard
close aoe: living bomb > combustion/flamestrike/dragon's breath/blastwave > flamestrike > cone of cold > blizzard

AOE isn't a simple as it used to be. First, you can and probably will die from aggro pulls. Yes, even on blizzard. However, you can work around this by using mirror image to have 30s where you can't pull aggro.

The reason you want to do a full rank flamestrike followed by a lower-ranked flamestrike is because the ground dot will stack.

Threat management

Class	Name	Note
Mage	Invisibility
Mage	Mirror Image
Warrior	Vigilance+[Glyph of Vigilance]	31 prot
Warrior	Intervene
Paladin	Hand of Salvation
Priest	Pain Suppression	41 disc
Hunter	Misdirection
Mage - talent	Arcane Subtlety
Mage - talent	Burning Soul	Does not stack with frost channeling
Mage - talent	Frost Channeling	Does not stack with burning soul

Generally you want to delay invisibility as much as possible, because the more you wait, the more effective it becomes.

Based on my personal experience, waiting for the boss to reach 70% hp before using invis will allow you to go all out for the remainder of the fight. Of course, this is only a rule of thumb and assumes that you produce more threat than your tank, and that you will catch up to him. You can play with the number a bit if you can afford to use mirror image at the end of the fight (ie: finish the fight with >130% threat). It has proven to work well, however, expanded math could give optimum values (if anyone is willing to do it).

Consumables

	Flask	Food	Potion
Best	[Flask of the Frost Wyrm]	[Fish Feast]/[Firecracker Salmon]/[Tender Shoveltusk Steak]	[Potion of Speed]
Alternative		[Great Feast]/[Smoked Salmon]/[Shoveltusk Steak]	[Runic Mana Potion]
Alternative-		[Snapper Extreme]/[Worg Tartare]	[Potion of Wild Magic]

Glyphs

0/53/18	18/53/0	57/3/11
[Glyph of Frostfire]	[Glyph of Fireball]	[Glyph of Arcane Blast]
[Glyph of Molten Armor]	[Glyph of Molten Armor]	[Glyph of Molten Armor]
[Glyph of Living Bomb]	[Glyph of Living Bomb]	[Glyph of Arcane Missiles]
[Glyph of Blast Wave]	[Glyph of Blast Wave]

Formulas
base formula for all mage spells (thx to Zaldinar for corrections)

avg_damage_per_cast_noncrit = (avg_cast_base_dmg + (spell_coefficient + empowered_fire + empowered_frostbolt + arcane_empowerment) * final_spell_dmg) * (firepower + ffb_glyph + spell_impact + arcane_blast_buff + arcane_power) * pwf * piercing_ice [* ebon_plaguebringer or coe+malediction or earth&moon] * arcane_instability * frostbolt_glyph * molten_fury [* sanctified_retribution or ferocious_inspiration] * tricks_of_the_trade * troll_beast_racial/worgen_racial
spell_coefficient = (see table below for appropriate coefficients)
avg_damage_per_cast = avg_damage_per_cast_noncrit * (1 + final_crit% * (crit_multiplier - 1))
final_cast_time = talented_cast_time / (1 + total_haste_rating / haste_rating_per_percent / 100) / netherwind_presence / wrath_of_air [/ retribution_aura or imp_moonkin_aura] [/ bloodlust or power_infusion] / icy veins / berserking / goblin_racial
spell_dps = avg_damage_per_cast * chance_to_hit% / final_cast_time

ex: frostfire bolt -- molten fury + berserking(20%) + bloodlust + icy veins + 4pct7 + CSD included, 2000 spelldmg, 55% crit, 500 haste rating
avg_damage_per_cast_noncrit = ( (722+838)/2 + (3/3.5 + 0.15) * 2000 spelldmg) * (1.1 + 0.02) * 1.03 * 1.06 * 1.13 * 1.12 = 4324.43
avg_damage_per_cast = 4324.43 * (1 + 0.55 * (3.34565 - 1)) = 9903.41
final_cast_time = 3 / (1 + 500/32.78998947/100) / 1.05 / 1.03 / 1.3 / 1.2 / 1.2 = 1.29
spell_dps = 9903.41 * 1 / 1.29 = 7677.06 dps

ex: arcane barrage(2.5/3.5 coef) -- ab_glyph(3%) + 3_stack_ab_buff + arcane power(20%) + torment the weak + berserking(20%) + bloodlust + icy veins + 4pct7 + CSD included, 2000 spelldmg, 55% crit, 500 haste rating
avg_damage_per_cast_noncrit = ( (936+1144)/2 + (2.5/3.5) * 2000 spelldmg) * (1 + 0.06 + 0.54 + 0.2) * 1.13 * 1.03 = 5171.71
avg_damage_per_cast = 5171.71 * (1 + 0.55 * (1.84475 - 1)) = 7574.55
final_cast_time = 1.5 / (1 + 500/32.78998947/100) / 1.06 / 1.05 / 1.03 / 1.3 / 1.2 / 1.2 = 0.61
spell_dps = 7574.55 * 1 / 0.61 = 12417.30 dps (ignoring GCD cap)

The above list is simplified and doesn't lists every possible non-stacking buffs. For a proper list, check the FFB thread or MMO-Champion RaidComp . For example, 'coe' refers to any of (Ebon Plaguebringer/Curse of the Elements+Malediction/Earth and Moon).

crit multiplier formula

crit_multiplier = (1 + ( ((1.5 * CSD) - 1) * (1 + ice_shards + burnout + spell_power + 4pct7 + am_glyph + ice_lance_glyph + combustion) )) * ignite

ex: frostfire bolt -- ignite + burnout + ice shards + CSD + 4pct7
crit_multiplier = (1 + ( ((1.5 * 1.03) - 1) * (1 + 1 + 0.5 + 0.05) )) * 1.4 = 334.565%

Base mana

Class	Level 70	Level 80
Mage	2241	3268
Druid	2370	3496
Warlock	2871	3856
Priest	2620	3863
Paladin	2953	4394
Shaman	3457	4396
Hunter	3383	5046

Spell	Coefficient	Base damage	Talents affecting the dot	Mana cost %	Mana cost (lvl 80)	Notes
Fireball	3.5/3.5 + empowered fire	898-1143 + 116/8s	pwf, firepower, arcane instability	19%	620	1 tick / 2s
Frostfire Bolt	3.0/3.5 + empowered fire	722-838 + 90/9s	pwf, firepower, arcane instability, piercing ice	14%	457	1 tick / 3s
Living Bomb	0.80/12s (+ 0.40)	1380/12s + 690	pwf, firepower (new)	22%	718	1 tick / 3s
Living Bomb dot	0.40	690	crit talents affecting LB currently unknown. WIF apparently doesn't, everything else does ?	-	-	1 tick / 3s
Pyroblast	1.15 + 0.20/12s	1210-1531 + 452/12s	pwf, firepower, arcane instability	22%	718	1 tick / 3s
Scorch	1.5/3.5	382-451		8%	261
Fire Blast	1.5/3.5	925-1095		21%	686
Flamestrike	0.2427 + 0.1220 (per tick)	876-1071 + 780/8s	pwf, firepower, arcane instability	30%	980	1 tick / 2s
Flamestrike (rank 8)	0.2427 + 0.1220 (per tick)	699-854 + 620/8s	pwf, firepower, arcane instability	30%	980	1 tick / 2s
Blizzard	8.0/3.5/2 /8s	3408/8s		74%	2418	1 tick / s
Cone of Cold	1.5/3.5/2	709-776		25%	817
Dragon's Breath	1.5/3.5/2*0.90	1101-1279		31%	1013
Blast Wave	1.5/3.5/2*0.90	1047-1233		28%	915 / glyphed: 777
Arcane Explosion	1.5/3.5/2	538-582		22%	718
Frost Nova	1.5/3.5/2*0.90	368-419		7%	228
Frostbolt	3/3.5*0.95 + empowered frostbolt	803-866		11%	359
Ice Lance	1.5/3.5/3	223-258		6%	196
Arcane Blast	2.5/3.5 + arcane empowerment	1185-1377		7%	228
Arcane Missiles	5/3.5 + arcane empowerment	~362		31%	1013
Arcane Barrage	2.5/3.5	936-1144		18%	588 / glyphed: 470
Deep Freeze (on immune mob)	7.5/3.5	1469-1741	totally untested numbers, will need retesting for 3.3	9%	294
Mirror Image	-	-		10%	326	30s
Mirror Image - frostbolt	0.10	163-169 *	150% crits, ~22-25 per cast	-	-
Mirror Image - fireblast	0.05	88-98 *	150% crits, ~10-14 per cast	-	-
Water Elemental - frostbolt	2.5/3.5*0.4	601-673	150% crits, sta/int = 0.3, 5% base crit	16%	522	45-60s

note: there is a discrepancy between the in-game-tooltip values and the ones reported by sites parsing the data files. The values above are taken from in-game-tooltips (except for arcane missiles).
* Based on a limited number of casts (~100 per).

base_mana_cost = rounddown( class_base_mana[player_level] * spell_mana_cost )
final_mana_cost = rounddown( base_mana_cost [* elemental_precision] [* frost_channeling] [* arcane_focus] [* arcane_power])

exception case: ab_mana_cost = rounddown( round(base_mana_cost [* elemental_precision] [* frost_channeling] [* arcane_focus]) * (1 + ab_stacks * 2 [+ arcane_power] [+ 2pct5]) )
(Arcane_blast is different than the rest because the first part of the mana cost can be rounded up, whereas every other spell can only be rounded down. So even though it seems like the formulas are the same, they need to be treated separately.)

ex: arcane barrage -- 3/3 elemental precision + 3/3 arcane focus + arcane power(20%)
base_mana_cost = rounddown( 3268 * 0.18 ) = 588
final_mana_cost = rounddown( 588 * 0.97 * 0.97 * 1.2 ) = 663

ex: arcane blast (3 stacks already up) -- 3/3 arcane focus + 3/3 elemental precision + arcane power(20%) + 2pct5
base_mana_cost = rounddown( 3268 * 0.07 ) = 228
ab_mana_cost = rounddown( round(228 * 0.97 * 0.97) * (1 + 3 * 2 + 0.20 + 0.05) ) = 1558

MMO-Champion RaidComp

Spell/buff	Type	Gain
classic buffs/debuffs---	---	---
Ebon Plaguebringer/Curse of the Elements+Malediction/Earth and Moon	debuff - Spell Damage Taken	13% damage
Totem of Wrath/Master Poisoner/Heart of the Crusader	debuff - Critical Strike Chance Taken	3% crit
Judgement of Wisdom	debuff - Mana Restore	0.25% max mana/hit
Improved Scorch/Winter's Chill/Improved Shadow Bolt	debuff - Spell Critical Strike Chance	5% crit
Misery/Improved Faerie Fire	debuff - Spell Hit Chance Taken	3% hit
Bloodlust	buff - Bloodlust	30% haste / 40s, doesn't stack with PI
Ferocious Inspiration/Sanctified Retribution	buff - Damage (%)	3% dmg
Retribution Aura+Swift Retribution/Improved Moonkin Form	buff - Haste (%)	3% haste
Replenishment (Vampiric Touch/Judgements of the Wise/Hunting Party/Enduring Winter/Improved Soul Leech)	buff - Replenishment	1% max mana/5s
Blessing of Wisdom+Improved Blessing of Wisdom/Mana Spring Totem+Restorative Totems	buff - Mana Regen	91 / 109 mp5
Elemental Oath/Moonkin Form	buff - Spell Critical Strike Chance	5% crit
Wrath of Air Totem	buff - Spell Haste	5% haste
Totem of Wrath/Demonic Pact/Flametongue Totem+Enhancing Totems/Improved Divine Spirit	buff - Spell Power	280 dmg (or +10% spell damage)
Innervate	buff
Mana Tide+Glyph of Mana Tide Totem	buff	6-7% max mana/3s for 12s
Dalaran Brilliance/Fel Intelligence	buff - Intellect	60 int
Divine Spirit/Fel Intelligence	buff - Spirit	80 spi
Power Word: Fortitude	buff - Stamina	165 sta
Mark of the Wild+Improved Mark of the Wild	buff - Stat Add	+37 stats (52 talented)
Blessing of Kings	buff - Stat Multiplier	+10% stats
gear / self buffs---	---	---
[Glyph of Molten Armor]	glyph	+20% spirit->crit rating
[Glyph of Frostfire]	glyph	(2% damage + 2% crit) to ffb
[Glyph of Fireball]	glyph	5% fireball crit
[Glyph of Living Bomb]	glyph	LB dot can crit
[Glyph of Arcane Blast]	glyph	+3% AB debuff damage
[Glyph of Arcane Missiles]	glyph	+25% AM bonus crit damage
[Glyph of Arcane Barrage]	glyph	-20% abarr mana cost
[Glyph of Ice Lance]	glyph	ice lance: 4x damage vs frozen
[Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]	metagem	3% bonus crit damage
Molten Armor+[Glyph of Molten Armor]	armor	35-55% spirit -> crit rating
Mage Armor+[Glyph of Mage Armor]	armor	mana regen
set bonuses---	---	---
Improved Mana Gems	set bonus	2pct7 - 225 dmg / 15s
Crit Strike Damage Percent	set bonus	4pct7 - 5% bonus crit damage
Praxis	set bonus	2pct8 - 25% chance/cast +350 dmg / 15s, 45s ICD
Item - Mage T8 4P Bonus	set bonus	4pct8 - 25% procrate
Item - Mage T9 2P Bonus	set bonus	2pct9 - +20% ice armor, +10% mage armor, +15% molten armor
Item - Mage T9 4P Bonus (Fireball, Frostbolt, Frostfire Bolt, and Arcane Blast)	set bonus	4pct9 - +5% crit (select spells)
consumables---	---	---
[Flask of the Frost Wyrm]	flask	125 dmg
[Fish Feast]/[Firecracker Salmon]/[Tender Shoveltusk Steak]	food	46 dmg
[Potion of Wild Magic]	potion	200dmg 200crit / 15s
[Potion of Speed]	potion	500 haste / 15s
[Runic Mana Potion]	potion	4200-4400 mana
[Mana Sapphire]	mana gem	3330-3500 mana / 2min, 4662-4900 mana / 2min if 2pct7
[Flame Cap]	consumable	80 fire dmg / 1min (3min CD)
Evocation	spell
more esoteric stuff---	---	---
Berserking	racial	10-30% haste
Power Infusion	buff	20% haste / 15s, doesn't stack with bloodlust/AP
Focus Magic	buff - Spell Critical Strike Chance	3% crit (from other mage)
Tricks of the Trade	buff - Damage (%)	+15% damage / 6s
Lay on Hands+[Glyph of Lay on Hands]	mana restore	1950 mana (2340 glyphed)
Hymn of Hope+[Glyph of Hymn of Hope]	mana restore
[Kreeg's Stout Beatdown]	consumable	+25spi -5int
[Toasted Smorc] (fire festival)	consumable	44 dmg
[Midsummer Sausage] (fire festival)	consumable	30 haste (was 23 dmg)
[Fire-toasted Bun] (fire festival)	consumable	20 hit
[Burning Blossom]->Fire Festival Fury (fire festival)	buff - Spell Critical Strike Chance	3% crit
[Very Berry Cream] (valentine)	consumable	35 dmg
[Dark Desire] (valentine)	consumable	30 hit
[Sweet Surprise] (valentine)	consumable	30 haste
[Pyroblast Cinnamon Ball] (halloween)	consumable	6 dmg (stacks?)
[Chewy Fel Taffy] (halloween)	consumable	5 hit (stacks?)
[Soothing Spearmint Candy] (halloween)	consumable	11 dmg (stacks?)
[Mistletoe] (xmas)	consumable	20 spi
truly esoteric stuff---	---	---
Basic Campfire	buff	4 spirit
Nexus Residue	buff	20 haste / 30min, 4 days ICD (req. tailoring)
Residue of Darkness	buff	20 crit / 30min, 4 days ICD (req. tailoring)
Blessing of Blackfathom	debuff	5int, 5spi, +15 frost dmg (BFD last boss)
[Night Dragon's Breath]	mana gem	394-356 mana (mana gem timer)
[Dark Rune]/[Demonic Rune]	mana gem	900-1500 mana (mana gem timer)
[Eye of the Night]	buff - Spell Power	34 dmg to party members
[Braided Eternium Chain]	buff - Spell Critical Strike	28 crit to party members
[Chain of the Twilight Owl]	buff - Spell Critical Strike	45 crit to party members
Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian (warlock)	buff - Spell Critical Strike	33 crit to party members
Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian (mage)	buff - Spell Power	28 dmg to party members

Stats equivalence

Originally Posted by Muphrid

If you're just doing the equivalence for Frostfire Bolt (and not a typical mixed rotation of FFB with Pyroblast from Hot Streak procs and/or Living Bomb woven in), the calculations are extremely straightforward.

latex -------------------
$1\mbox{ spell power} \equiv 4590.598679 \frac{1/b+c}{m/r+d} \mbox{ crit rating} \equiv 3278.998947 \frac{1+z}{m/r+d} \mbox{ haste rating} \equiv 2623.199272 \frac{h}{m/r+d} \mbox{ hit rating}$

non-latex -------------
1 spell power = 4590.598679 * ((1/b+c) / (m/r+d)) crit rating = 3278.998947 * ((1+z) / (m/r+d)) haste rating = 2623.199272 * (h / (m/r+d)) hit rating

m is the average base damage (ex: frostfire bolt: (722+838)/2 = 780)
r is the spell power coefficient (see table above for spell coefficients)
d is your spell power.
b is the critical strike bonus. (see table above for crit multiplier)
c is your crit chance.
z is the bonus to your casting speed from gear-based haste.
h is your hit chance.
[slightly edited]

More numbers

Level	Crit / Int	Int / 1% crit
70	0.0125	80
71	0.0116	86.2068944
72	0.0108	92.59259244
73	0.0101	99.00990313
74	0.0093	107.526879
75	0.0087	114.9425283
76	0.0081	123.4567927
77	0.0075	133.333327
78	0.007	142.857139
79	0.0065	153.8461534
80	0.006	166.6666709

crit_rate_from_int = 0.9075 + final_int / 166.6666709
note: 0.9075 applies only to lvl 80 ? currently unknown

	Level 70	Level 80
BASE_REGEN	0.009327	0.005575

Level	BASE_REGEN	Level	BASE_REGEN	Level	BASE_REGEN	Level	BASE_REGEN
1	0.020979	21	0.011840	41	0.008235	61	0.006421
2	0.020515	22	0.011494	42	0.008113	62	0.006314
3	0.020079	23	0.011292	43	0.008018	63	0.006175
4	0.019516	24	0.010990	44	0.007906	64	0.006072
5	0.018997	25	0.010761	45	0.007798	65	0.005981
6	0.018646	26	0.010546	46	0.007713	66	0.005885
7	0.018314	27	0.010321	47	0.007612	67	0.005791
8	0.017997	28	0.010151	48	0.007524	68	0.005732
9	0.017584	29	0.009949	49	0.007430	69	0.005668
10	0.017197	30	0.009740	50	0.007340	70	0.005596
11	0.016551	31	0.009597	51	0.007268	71	0.005316
12	0.015729	32	0.009425	52	0.007184	72	0.005049
13	0.015229	33	0.009278	53	0.007116	73	0.004796
14	0.014580	34	0.009123	54	0.007029	74	0.004555
15	0.014008	35	0.008974	55	0.006945	75	0.004327
16	0.013650	36	0.008847	56	0.006884	76	0.004110
17	0.013175	37	0.008698	57	0.006805	77	0.003903
18	0.012832	38	0.008581	58	0.006747	78	0.003708
19	0.012475	39	0.008457	59	0.006667	79	0.003522
20	0.012073	40	0.008338	60	0.006600	80	0.003345

ManaRegen(SPI, INT, LEVEL) = roundup( (0.001+SPI*BASE_REGEN[LEVEL]*square_root(INT))*5 )

Incanter's Absorption
ia_sp_gain = absorbed_damage * 0.15 + previous_ia_sp * (ia_remaining_time / 10)

Professions / Racials

3.2 Profession	Buff	Non-profession buff	Gain
Engineering	Hyperspeed Acceleration + Nitro Boosts + Springy Arachnoweave	Enchant Gloves - Exceptional Spellpower / Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed / Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality	+340 haste/12s - 1min CD (off gcd), +24 crit, -1 dmg, -23 haste
Tailoring	Lightweave Embroidery (+ 1 ghost spirit) + Nexus Residue + Residue of Darkness	Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed	+295 dmg/15s - 60s ICD, -23 haste (35-50% procrate)
Jewelcrafting	3x[Runed Dragon's Eye]	3x[Runed Cardinal Ruby]	+48 dmg
Alchemy	Mixology	[Flask of the Frost Wyrm]	+47 dmg
Blacksmithing	Socket Gloves+Socket Bracer		+46 dmg
Enchanting	2xEnchant Ring - Greater Spellpower		+46 dmg
Leatherworking	Fur Lining - Spell Power	Enchant Bracers - Superior Spellpower	+46 dmg
Inscription	Master's Inscription of the Storm	[Greater Inscription of the Storm ]	+46 dmg
Skinning	Master of Anatomy		+40 crit
Mining	Toughness		+60 sta
Herbalism			3600 healing / 5s

warning: be aware that using engineering/tailoring will cause your cloak enchants to overlap.

Race	Buff
Draenai	Heroic Presence
Troll	Berserking + Beast Slaying (...)
Worgen	+1% damage
Goblin	+1% haste
Gnome	Expansive Mind
Human	The Human Spirit
Blood Elf	Arcane Torrent
Undead	none

To do
add hot streak tables
add DPM calculations on spreadsheet
add dpm-affecting buff/debuffs

Legitimate · 11/24/08, 10:09 PM

Regarding your opening 10 seconds: Assuming you open up with Living Bomb and scorches, I don't think your DPS will be too bursty to the point where you need to worry about threat. It's predictable enough to the point where even through pure crits, threat shouldn't be an issue until your first nuke goes out 7.5 seconds later.

Some quick math would suggest that Living Bomb is definitely worth keeping up, even through bloodlust/haste cooldowns. For the sake of simplicity, lets assume we have a hit capped mage with 1500 spell damage and 35% Chance to crit. To calculate DPS from our living bomb while under the effects of just bloodlust with no geared haste, I used the following formulas:

$LB DPS = \frac{((345 + (0.2 * SplDmg)) * 4)}{1.2} + \frac{((640 + (0.4 * SplDmg)) * 1.1)}{1.2}$

1.1 Being the bonus from Fire Power (Which does not apply to the dot portion.) and 1.2 being your global cooldown (time committed to cast Living Bomb).

The thing with this formula is it doesn't take into consideration your chance to crit, as I'm honestly not 100% sure how that works mathematically with burnout and ignite. Regardless, we end up with about 5200 damage over the 12 second duration which comes out to be 4333 DPS with the 1.2 Second GCD, far more than a Bloodlusted Frostfire bolt will be worth until you gear some serious crit, unless my math is wrong.

Inoko · 11/24/08, 11:21 PM

With regards to Point of Contention 12: Proper Play of the first 10 seconds:

It seems somewhat obvious to me that it's best to Follow the order of Living Bomb (1.5), Scorch (1.5/3.0),Scorch(1.5/4.5), FFB(3.0/7.5), FFB(3.0/10.5), FFB(3.0/13.5) <-- LB Explodes during this one. In fact, it would potentially be optimal to get haste rating to a point where you can squeeze 1.5 seconds off this entire 13.5 second cast sequence for a "perfect" LB rotation in the opening 10 (or look at getting a "perfect" rotation later) -- but regardless, I can't see any other way to play the opening 10/13.5 than this.

◊ manly · 11/25/08, 12:39 AM

Well its mostly about scorch vs living bomb opener when taking into account raid dps. Also, and most importantly, its about mirror image. There is always the possibility of a trailover hot streak giving up a nasty threat opening. Do you mirror image while both ffb/pyro is in mid air to avoid threat issues ? Or do you wait until threat becomes an actual issue to pop mirror image ? I understand the points are somewhat vague, theyre mostly placeholders as far as I'm concerned.

While it wasn't clear, what I meant by holding up on living bomb casts during cooldowns was actually referring to finishing a bloodlust timer in a case where casting a living bomb now will prevent you from casting a hasted ffb, in which case my gut feeling would tell me to delay by 1 ffb my living bomb cast, but truly I think the math on that needs to be expanded. I do readily agree that in every other case there is no good reason not to cast living bomb haste cooldowns.

xiaoxin21 · 11/25/08, 1:32 AM

On frostfire builds, how will a 0/50/21 variant with coldsnap compare with a 0/53/18?

It gives the benefit of double coldsnap and iceblock and some points in shatter for AOE blizzard for the lost of living bomb.

Alinth · 11/25/08, 1:48 AM

For single target boss fights, Living Bomb will out do 1 extra IV from coldsnap. For aoe, that build may well out do a Living bomb build due to the extra points in the frost tree.

Once the dual spec system comes in, depending on how it works, you'll be able to run one spec as your single target spec and your second spec can be more focused on aoe/trash. At least this is what I'm planning for myself.

In regards to opening cast sequence, is it known when the explosion part of Living Bomb will crit or not? Is it with the inital cast of the spell or when the explosion occurs? So far my opening cast sequence for bosses that come to me at the start of the fight has always been scorchx2 followed by LB in the hopes for it to crit on explosion.

◊ manly · 11/25/08, 3:38 AM

Alinth, think further about what you ask. If the living bomb explosion was part of the spell directly (as in, whether ir crits or not and the total damage dealt is determined at time of cast), then that would allow to infinitely roll ignites (for the better or worse). It would mean, for example, that you have 10k ignite on target, cast living bomb (which will 'remember' 10k ignite + 1k ignite to add for his own), have ignite deal 10k damage, then 12s later have that 11k ignite re-surge up (and by the same process, eat whatever new ignite numbers would then be up).

It doesn't work that way. Happily.

Living Bomb is made out of 2 spells. The first one is the dot. The second one is the explosion. They work independantly as far as I know. And as far as I know, if you pop trinkets, they will affect the dot, but not the explosion (assuming the trinket dies before the explosion of course).

yallazon · 11/25/08, 4:29 AM

I spent a little time casting Frostfire bolt today at the boss dummies. Not a huge sample size, but may be of some use. The only thing i messed up with is I forgot to untie my trinkets from frostfire so they were always up (I'm bad =( )

I had no buff's, no armor up, and no Frostfire glyph.

Rugrud · 11/25/08, 5:01 AM

Originally Posted by manly

1pt ice floes -> frostbite, 1pt world in flames -> imp. blizzard - More controlled blizzard dps. Keep in mind World in Flames affects blizzard dps.

I don't get this.
What the point of freezing mobs with blizzard? You don't have shatter in the build, so there is no dps gain.
And if it is about control, i can only see it as bad. If your tank is keeping agro, you don't need it, and it can split pack if the tank is moving them.
If the tank is not keeping agro, how good is it when the tank is moving to regain agro on loose mob to leave frozen mobs behind?
What am i missing?

Systemtemp · 11/25/08, 5:23 AM

Yes it is about control and you need it alot when you AoE. With your blizzard critting at the same time to several mobs, tank can lose aggro and you can get it easily. At these times, slowed mobs, even frozen mobs will give you and tank a lot time to lose/regain aggro while continuing AoE..

Dustwhisper · 11/25/08, 7:27 AM

I would think livingbomb superseeds scorch as an opener due to the simple fact that living bomb is instacast and can be cast whilst pulling. While doing 10man naxx yesterday on any boss that required moving into place i threw up LB as soon as I was in range and tank was running for it.

Praest · 11/25/08, 7:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dustwhisper

I would think livingbomb superseeds scorch as an opener due to the simple fact that living bomb is instacast and can be cast whilst pulling. While doing 10man naxx yesterday on any boss that required moving into place i threw up LB as soon as I was in range and tank was running for it.

Well obviously LB will be a better choice if the choice is to run and cast LB or just run. The question was probably more for the encounters where you are in position at the pull and your first cast is to hand the casters 10% crit on their initials or give yourself a 3s headstart on living bombs explosion.

On reference to the doubledipping from EP and FFB I've seen misses when running with 11% hit + EP from FFB. Sadly I did not screenshot or WWS it so this may just be anecdotal and discarded as such. It was on Archaron or however he spells it (the boss you can fight after you gain control over Wintergrasp) and it was the 25 man version. So from my experience, you still need 14% hit as horde (counting EP) and 13% hit as alliance with draenei.

EDIT: as pointed out below, that may have been due to the cloud and I retract the statement above (not the LB one).

Gediablo · 11/25/08, 8:14 AM

If you have Fireward up and is hit by frostfirebolt it will do frostdamage to avoid being absorbed.
If you have Frostward up and is hit by frostfirebolt it will do firedamage to avoid being absorbed.

spaace · 11/25/08, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by yallazon

I spent a little time casting Frostfire bolt today at the boss dummies. Not a huge sample size, but may be of some use. The only thing i messed up with is I forgot to untie my trinkets from frostfire so they were always up (I'm bad =( )

I had no buff's, no armor up, and no Frostfire glyph.

By that screenshot, it looks like you've recieved the worse-half of the RNG.

Spike damage is a big thing with frostfire bolt, hence resulting in a big possibility of crit-stacking.

My current crit-rate is around yours, and I've noticed times where my DPS has gone down the drain due to lack of crits. (Did Raz today, and crit 6 times.. but it was a physical dps favored group)

I'm going to try what you did (300 FFB's), but keep scorch up(Yay!) and check my results.

Masnie · 11/25/08, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Praest

On reference to the doubledipping from EP and FFB I've seen misses when running with 11% hit + EP from FFB. Sadly I did not screenshot or WWS it so this may just be anecdotal and discarded as such. It was on Archaron or however he spells it (the boss you can fight after you gain control over Wintergrasp) and it was the 25 man version. So from my experience, you still need 14% hit as horde (counting EP) and 13% hit as alliance with draenei.

Archavon uses Choking Cloud, so you might have been affected by one of those at that point.

jedco · 11/25/08, 9:26 AM

Thank you Manly, I've been waiting for this thread!

It seems like the frostfire builds are very streaky. One fight I'll do 3k dps and another 1750. It will be interesting to see how it feels once I am able to flesh out my gear more and have some options.

I really would like to get to a point where I could incorporate some spell haste into my gear, because I notice a lot of missed casting opportunities due to "something" happening that requires my attention (decurse, phase change, whatever). It would be nice to have "enough" damage and crit to where I could add in some haste. For the time being, it seems like there just isn't room.

◊ manly · 11/25/08, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by yallazon

I spent a little time casting Frostfire bolt today at the boss dummies. Not a huge sample size, but may be of some use. The only thing i messed up with is I forgot to untie my trinkets from frostfire so they were always up (I'm bad =( )

I had no buff's, no armor up, and no Frostfire glyph.

<insert image here with bad crit rng>

FWIW, heres what I got on my first full naxx clear (missed the first reset because I wasn't 80 yet. Also, had 690 crit rating at time of parse)

Boss	ffb crit %	url
Anub'rekhan	65%
Faerlina	49%
Noth	71%	Wow Web Stats
Heigan	72%	Wow Web Stats
Patchwerk	68%	Wow Web Stats
Grobbulus	49%
Gluth	64%
Thaddius	62%
Razuvious	75%	Wow Web Stats
Gothik	58%
Sapphiron	48%
Kel'Thuzad	63%

• Seonid · 11/25/08, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Points of contention
1- Optimal gearing with EP bug ? Gear for 11% or 8% ?

I would gear for 11%, if only to cap Scorch and Pyro, regardless if this ghost hit bug lasts as long as the previous one.
Refreshing the scorch stack is a DPS hit as it it, let alone having to recast it due to a miss.
I would also like my trinketed Pyro's to not miss in MF range.

Papajan · 11/25/08, 11:22 AM

I've been doing the variation with no Burning Soul, but 2/3 WiF for DB and 2/2 Fiery Payback, and playstyle with Fiery Payback is a bit awkward. I only really took the talent to give me a better chance of surviving Sapphiron, but occasionally, I'll wind up getting two Hot Streak procs too close together and then Pyro is on CD for the second, which always surprises me. If only the Hot Streak'ed Pyro didn't count as a usage of the Fiery Payback'ed Pyro.

Also, unlike pre-3.0 with fire spec, where I could ignore Scorch on quick trash, it seems almost impossible to do much damage on a mob with low HP without Imp Scorch up. As far as trash rotations, tank threat is pretty good, so working Flamestrike into the rotation has been useful for most trash mobs, whether 5-man or 10.

chinaski · 11/25/08, 12:40 PM

First I'd like to say thanks for putting this thread and information together. Most of the information here isn't new but it's nice to see it all in one place and some intelligent discussion about it, especially the "double dipping" into EP by FFB which is something I am very interested in hearing test results from.

One question, and it may be a goofy one, do any of you know of a good bar timer mod for Living Bomb?
I've used scorchio in the past for scorches and it works out really well on boss fights when there are a lot of debuffs up making it less of an effort to try and locate the scorch one, and I was hoping to find one for living bomb.

If this question is to far out of the scope of this thread then I apologize.

• Seonid · 11/25/08, 12:48 PM

The Scorchio2 addon tracks LB as well as WC and scorch debuff.

Flitwik · 11/25/08, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by manly

F

Boss	ffb crit %	url
Anub'rekhan	65%
Faerlina	49%
Noth	71%	Wow Web Stats
Heigan	72%	Wow Web Stats
Patchwerk	68%	Wow Web Stats
Grobbulus	49%
Gluth	64%
Thaddius	62%
Razuvious	75%	Wow Web Stats
Gothik	58%
Sapphiron	48%
Kel'Thuzad	63%

I see you used evoc on the patchwerk pull, here is my first Patch on a 25 Naxx raid. I didn't use evoc, but i had to put up a full fight with Mage Armor (glyphed). On the other side i could use my hast potion.
I've been wondering for a moment if the use of molten armor glyphed + evoc insted of the mage armor glyphed on a 25 raid would be a dps up.
But 1k dps ... snif

jedco · 11/25/08, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by chinaski

First I'd like to say thanks for putting this thread and information together. Most of the information here isn't new but it's nice to see it all in one place and some intelligent discussion about it, especially the "double dipping" into EP by FFB which is something I am very interested in hearing test results from.

One question, and it may be a goofy one, do any of you know of a good bar timer mod for Living Bomb?
I've used scorchio in the past for scorches and it works out really well on boss fights when there are a lot of debuffs up making it less of an effort to try and locate the scorch one, and I was hoping to find one for living bomb.

If this question is to far out of the scope of this thread then I apologize.

There is a mod called "Debuff Filter" which can be found on the cursed website. I used to use it while playing my warrior to keep track of thunder clap, sunder armor et al, but it can be configured to track whatever you need. I scale the debuffs on my unit frames a little larger, because there is less unnecessary information. I haven't used it since 3.0, but the website says it has been updated, so give it a try. I plan to reinstall it myself to avoid any Living Bomb downtime (and help prevent scorch from falling off when I nod off at the keys).

◊ manly · 11/25/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Flitwik

I see you used evoc on the patchwerk pull, here is my first Patch on a 25 Naxx raid. I didn't use evoc, but i had to put up a full fight with Mage Armor (glyphed). On the other side i could use my hast potion.
I've been wondering for a moment if the use of molten armor glyphed + evoc insted of the mage armor glyphed on a 25 raid would be a dps up.
But 1k dps ... snif

I might have been able to pull without evocation. I think I used my overstocks of SMPs rather than actually good potions, and it seems I only used 1 gem. My macros are due for a makeover, right now its more like playing with no macro whatsoever, and this is one of the indirect results.

Alihandras · 11/25/08, 1:52 PM

So with all these new changes in the game, and playing with the FFB specs I've seen alot of crazy results that are clearly illustrated in this post already. However with the conversation over the first 10/13.5 sec of the fight and that ensuing rotation really caught me. Can we assume that like a deep Arcane build with Arcane Barrage there may be a soft haste cap now with LB rotations?

While Hot Streak is still unpredictable yes, can we stack for a certain number of haste now that will be able to give us our perfect rotations? Or is there another equilibrium between haste and crit where the DPS gains of these stats will be affected differently.

My concern comes from hitting and lacking our old Sunwell Crit rating, how Manly attained near 700 rating is just insane, but still a major show of the potential of this spec. I'm curious as to how we would see the haste caps/crit caps for this spec. But most of all we knew period in the fire spec that crit was our weakest dps gain stat, with this heavy 334% modifier that's changed, and I'm curious as to just how much, anyone have input on testing methods?