The Frostfire Bolt thread (updated 3.2.2) - Page 11

Saruk · 12/04/08, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by mesullivan

First of all, 51% is a big overestimate. You are including all of your ignites, which were 20% of your damage. Some of that (probably more than half) was ignites from FFB.

Second, hit that applies to 51% of your damage is not as valuable as spellpower per item point, probably not even per stat point, at normal levels of gear. It's probably no more valuable than crit. At 38-39% of your damage (which is what's actually happening given your stats), I'd guess hit is noticeably less valuable than crit or haste, and won't ever be better than spellpower.

The reason you normally cap hit is not because of some need to never miss, it's because it is by *far* the most effective dps increase for the item cost. That's simply not true once your main nuke (responsible for 60%+ of your damage) is capped.

The only good reason to stack hit past capping FFB is for utility, if you have a lot of critical polymorph or spellsteal assignments.

I am beginning to agree with this assessment. When you take out the ignite dmg from FFB and factor in the insta cast nature of LB and the short cast and fewer cast nature of a glyphed scorch, the worth of +hit for a hit capped FFB build has to be pretty low.

Then there is also the issue of variability in RNG over small samples - something that doesn't seem to get discussed a lot. Sure over 10,000 casts the +hit diff dmg loss of a non-capped pyro can be substantial, but we never encounter those situations. 20-30 HS in one fight (maybe less) is the norm. And those fights are independent events - which means your performance on the first boss does not affect you performance on the second. To hit cap your pyro means you are fully protecting your downside, but your downside never gets to come with you to the next boss! If you got shafted by RNG, get up and brush yourself off and continue.

I know this is a different way of thinking about +hit - and combat in general, but I think a lot of mages think this way. No one wants to max +hit at the expense of fun stats like +crit and +dmg.

Of course this only works to a point. You don't want to be stupid about it and you should have a good deal of hit. But I don't think you ever need to max it the way the TCers tell us. There is way more variability in dmg on any given fight for any number of reasons than the fact that you are 20 points below the hit cap.

Inoko · 12/04/08, 11:52 PM

Then there is also the issue of variability in RNG over small samples - something that doesn't seem to get discussed a lot. Sure over 10,000 casts the +hit diff dmg loss of a non-capped pyro can be substantial, but we never encounter those situations. 20-30 HS in one fight (maybe less) is the norm. And those fights are independent events - which means your performance on the first boss does not affect you performance on the second. To hit cap your pyro means you are fully protecting your downside, but your downside never gets to come with you to the next boss! If you got shafted by RNG, get up and brush yourself off and continue.

I know this is a different way of thinking about +hit - and combat in general, but I think a lot of mages think this way. No one wants to max +hit at the expense of fun stats like +crit and +dmg.

Of course this only works to a point. You don't want to be stupid about it and you should have a good deal of hit. But I don't think you ever need to max it the way the TCers tell us. There is way more variability in dmg on any given fight for any number of reasons than the fact that you are 20 points below the hit cap.

The DPS loss is not going to be hugely enormously large, you're correct. But this is not an all or nothing scenario. The value of hit simply changes. It has always had a value. It's not that one hit rating is better than one hundred spell power, even at 0% hit rating. (There may be a situation where it is, but unlikely.) It's simply that, point for point, it's better.

And at the FFB bugged hit cap, its value changes. This may be a hard thing for us casters to understand, but it's something melee have dealt with for a long time: cap yellow and the value of hit decreases.

Furthermore, as to your statement about the variability of the RNG in small samples... While this is true, it's also completely moot. You cannot predict when the RNG will love you, and you cannot predict when it will hate you. All you can do is minimize the chances for the RNG to hate you and maximize the chances for it to love you.

Or... play to the 10 000 cast sample size, not the 1 cast sample size.

Oh, and... "fun" stats like spell damage and crit? I get frustrated when I miss on 1%, so I'd call it a fun stat. Don't be so ambiguous. :-)

grimtage · 12/05/08, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by drakefyre

I'm trying to get a decent balance between frost and fire so I don't have to go with the standard 0/58/11 builds that are out there for FFB. I realize that this will sacrifice some DPS, however I'm not exactly sure how much. I've only just begun using Rawr.Mage (ie I'm a Rawr noob) to calculate these numbers so I was going to see if anyone had additional input.

Here is the build I'm looking at.

I took out Hot Streak, LB, and Burnout.

In the frost tree I wanted to get down to Ice Barrier. I've been a frost mage since the game released 4 years ago and I'm reluctant to give up that shield.

I know the other repliers are pretty elitist in their replies, but to be honest, it's elitist jerks. You expect elitist jerks. Anyway, not everyone reading here IS an elitist jerk, so here's my 2c:

There was a build that was considered in beta before Hot Streak/Scorch/Living Bomb was changed, it looked something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Obviously, the ice barrier and impact talents that are in there used to be in imp Scorch instead. Alas, this build was given up (and I don't think I got the build perfect) because it was lower dps than the living bomb build. Still, it's workable in my opinion, and for lazier mages it might be better (no watching for hot streak, no living bomb, no scorch spam) and it has what you asked for - Ice Barrier.

Pintofbrew · 12/05/08, 8:03 AM

Originally Posted by xylek

Does anyone think that this spec would be any good?
Mage - Talents - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
I would think it would be a large increase in raid dps if there were 3 or more mages (with one willing to cast Slow), and a fire mage for improved scorch.
It would have fairly powerful burn phases with trinkets due to Arcane Power and could possibly force crits with PoM.
I don't want to be a deep fire mage because I was hoping that Blizzard would balance the trees, so if someone could test this or give an opinion on it, that would help a lot.
I love arcane, so I would jump at the chance to still use FFB without being fire and still maintain good dps

Easy answer for you there. No it would not be any good.

If you looked perhaps a few pages back, or tried searching it, you'd discover that it's been a known fact for many weeks that there is no possible way you can reach 0/53/18 FFB DPS by speccing spell-power instead of Burnout. It will not have "powerful burn phases", it will not have any significant improvement due to PoM, and it most assuredly will not come anywhere near replacing Emp. Fire, Fire Power, PwF, Hot Streak and MF with Arcane's badly scaling damage buffs.

Arcane is a gimp at this junction in time. Recent attempts have tried to pull it out of the shit by making it's only two spells over-scale, thus making the comparative pathetic amount of talents that increase damage in the tree not seem so problematic. It has thus far failed in any possible incarnation.

If you don't want to be a deep-fire mage, you can pretty much forget about being a RDPS mage too.

Anobix · 12/05/08, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Voodoomoose

hi there. What kind of dps numbers are you all seeing on patchwerk? ive heard accounts of ~5k, but i cant seem to break 3500.

I hit about 3.8-4kish. It truly depended on my luck with RNG, I'm still working on my crit rating and my trinkets (about 28% self-buffed crit chance with fire atm). It also depends on if you used fire seeds etc.

Magelove · 12/05/08, 9:31 AM

In response to some of the posts regarding "ignite munching" am i right in thinking that an ignite from a lower damage crit will overide an ignite from a higher damage crit? I know this may sound like a stupid question but im trying to understand the best rotation and timings for my FFB spec. Also im getting a hot streak sometimes after casting my first two scorches, should i hold back on this until iv cast combustion or just get it off straight away?

Enthorn · 12/05/08, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by grimtage

I know the other repliers are pretty elitist in their replies, but to be honest, it's elitist jerks. You expect elitist jerks. Anyway, not everyone reading here IS an elitist jerk, so here's my 2c: 0.33.38

Obviously, the ice barrier and impact talents that are in there used to be in imp Scorch instead. Alas, this build was given up (and I don't think I got the build perfect) because it was lower dps than the living bomb build. Still, it's workable in my opinion, and for lazier mages it might be better (no watching for hot streak, no living bomb, no scorch spam) and it has what you asked for - Ice Barrier.

I'm just not sure what this build is supposed to accomplish though. At 2000 spell power, Ice Barrier is absorbing 4900 damage every 24-30 seconds. This is great for soloing and PvP, but it has little application in a raid setting where your job is not to minimize the damage you otherwise would have taken (not preventable damage), but to DPS. Even in a 5-man setting, most raid damage is caused by spells. You'd be better off with Magic Absorption (slipped into an 18.53.0 build, or even just spec deep frost and grab clearcasting and focus magic, with magic absorption along the way).

Look at it this way: you've put points into Cold as Ice, but you don't have water elemental. You have points in Winter's Chill, but what is your main nuke? There are no points in Empowered Frostbolt, Chilled to the Bone, or Brain Freeze. This is significant DPS loss for Frostbolt. And if you're going the Frostfire Bolt route, then you've given up Empowered Fire, Hot Streak, Burnout, and Pyromaniac. And for the same reasons, Fireball wouldn't be viable.

What it comes down to is needlessly investing points to grab talents you don't need, and ignoring talents that will help you play your class/role better.

Elitistjerks definitely is not a forum filled with "elitist jerks" in the strictest definition of the words. Instead, it is filled with 'intelligent' theorycrafters who have an interest in exceeding their expectations. Quite frankly, the "lazier mages" that you mention, I question why they would be here in the first place. Saying you aren't taking Hot Streak, Living Bomb, and Scorch, because it requires attention... I just don't understand. Why bother speculating on a build at all then? Why even post about it?

Zalath · 12/05/08, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Magelove

In response to some of the posts regarding "ignite munching" am i right in thinking that an ignite from a lower damage crit will overide an ignite from a higher damage crit? I know this may sound like a stupid question but im trying to understand the best rotation and timings for my FFB spec. Also im getting a hot streak sometimes after casting my first two scorches, should i hold back on this until iv cast combustion or just get it off straight away?

Actually no. It seems like ignites are calculated on spell cast instead of spell hit. So if an ignite ticks while you have a bolt in flight you can gain some, while if you have two bolts in the air at the same time you can lose some. That's the short version. There was a thread on the matter earlier:

[Mage] Rolling Ignites: are they back?

Blizzard also said they were working on the issue. With Blizzard removing the hard debuff cap it's possible they will allow each crit to get its own ignite - it wouldnt't be a lot of debuffs.

World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Debuff Cap Removed - debuff cap removed.

Pyrates · 12/05/08, 10:19 AM

I realize I'm pretty late with this, but there's a mistake in gustave's computations. I'm not sure how the common tools are handling this part, but it might be worth checking out if they work correctly (if anybody know's, I'd like to hear about it

). The problem lies in the computation of Hot Streak. Just considering casting 2 Spells and seeing if HS procs with 2 crits isn't going to get the right answer, because it has a history: If you've critted before without proccing HS, now you get an instant Pyro for CritHit, and not for CritCrit.

The correct answer can be formulated as follows: If c is your critchance, and you take an infinite sequence of casts, choosing a random one, this one will be proccing HS with a chance of c*c/(1+c) [of course, the cast itself will be a crit].

Also, the final computation of dps is wrong. It says

The resultant dps is the sum of the chance to be in each state times that states dps

which isn't true. Resultant dps are AverageDamage divided by AverageCasttime, which in this case isn't the same as the quote.

If nobody cares about this computation, feel free to ignore it, but I'd really like to know if rawr, magegraf or lhivera are handling this issue correctly

Orth · 12/05/08, 12:13 PM

If I remember correctly, trinkets were a topic of dicussion. Assuming you have 2 peice T7 set bonus would [Serpent-Coil Braid] be a reasonable contender for a trinket item. Has anyone tested to see if this trinket and t7 bonus stacks? And if it does why wouldn't we want to pop a gem right before our combustion, IV combos? Just had this thought lastnight but since I don't have 2 peice t7 I can't really test this. Thanks guys.

Anobix · 12/05/08, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Orth

If I remember correctly, trinkets were a topic of dicussion. Assuming you have 2 peice T7 set bonus would [Serpent-Coil Braid] be a reasonable contender for a trinket item. Has anyone tested to see if this trinket and t7 bonus stacks? And if it does why wouldn't we want to pop a gem right before our combustion, IV combos? Just had this thought lastnight but since I don't have 2 peice t7 I can't really test this. Thanks guys.

I believe the mana returns do stack but the spellpower effects do not. Anyone that can clarify?

Enthorn · 12/05/08, 12:40 PM

Correct Anobix. The buff is the same on the 2-piece T7 as it is on Serpent-Coil Braid. Thus, you get the additional mana, but you don't gain the additional spell power. Regardless, other trinkets are so far ahead of Serpent-Coild Braid in their passive stats and their buffs, that it isn't even worth comparing once you have 2-piece T7. Even without that set bonus, I will replace SCB in a heartbeat with [Sundial of the Exiled], alongside [Mark of the War Prisoner], which I already have.

Sancus · 12/05/08, 4:32 PM

The main objection I have to aggressively taking advantage of the "ghost hit" on Frostfire Bolt is the fact that it's 99.99% likely to be a bug, and it could be fixed out from under us completely without warning. In fact, if Blizzard is paying any attention at all, I'd say it's fairly likely that it would be. I don't really want to have to change all my gear if that happens, so I'm gearing assuming a non-bugged EP.

As excess gear/drop rate allows, I'll probably acquire gear with less hit that I can wear as long as the bug stays in the game.

ßeelzebubb · 12/05/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by cabrinha

What addon are you using to warn you about all your procs?

I currently have custom EBB groups set up on my screen to show me when HS procs and also how much time is left. Along with that group I added another group a little lower on my ui that shows the debuffs of LB and Scorch on the target. I've included a screen shot so you can see what I mean. In regards to starting rotation I agree with the people that cast scorch first to get the debuff up for the whole raid, and then cast LB, FFB.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6...8193429kk7.jpg

Saruk · 12/05/08, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pyrates

I realize I'm pretty late with this, but there's a mistake in gustave's computations. I'm not sure how the common tools are handling this part, but it might be worth checking out if they work correctly (if anybody know's, I'd like to hear about it

). The problem lies in the computation of Hot Streak. Just considering casting 2 Spells and seeing if HS procs with 2 crits isn't going to get the right answer, because it has a history: If you've critted before without proccing HS, now you get an instant Pyro for CritHit, and not for CritCrit.

There is a post about this in the WotLK thread #2 that comes up with the same equation:

WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR)

◊ manly · 12/05/08, 5:08 PM

That looks somewhat close to my UI. EBB is truly awesome. I think I'll set up a new thread so that TCer could talk about how to build a functional mage dps UI. I think there is some value to be given in properly representing procs in a way that requires the least amount of 'searching around the screen' and whatnot.

marsui · 12/05/08, 5:31 PM

What would you think would be the best meta gem for a frost-fire bolt specced mage?

Thegoodman · 12/05/08, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by marsui

What would you think would be the best meta gem for a frost-fire bolt specced mage?

This question belongs in the Simple Question/Simple Answer thread. Aside from that, Chaotic Skyflare Diamond is the best caster Meta gem hands down. FFB is a crit predicated on crit, so 3% crit bonus is huge.

Lgs · 12/05/08, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by manly

That looks somewhat close to my UI. EBB is truly awesome. I think I'll set up a new thread so that TCer could talk about how to build a functional mage dps UI. I think there is some value to be given in properly representing procs in a way that requires the least amount of 'searching around the screen' and whatnot.

Scorchio! 2, Power Auras, and Debuff Filter are also both effective at tracking procs and mob debuffs.

Saruk · 12/05/08, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by manly

That looks somewhat close to my UI. EBB is truly awesome. I think I'll set up a new thread so that TCer could talk about how to build a functional mage dps UI. I think there is some value to be given in properly representing procs in a way that requires the least amount of 'searching around the screen' and whatnot.

I agree. Things like the fact that EBB is no good for LB, the use of Scorchio2, optimal positions for HS, Sheep, LB, etc. There might be some really creative ideas out there about mage UI.

I have always played around with ideas to improve the feel of the visual field. For instance, it is better to have all your bars diminishing from right to left for EBB, or should you change it up with some going the other way or up to down? Does breaking up the visual field like this enhance your ability to pick out when something is low or needing attention?

grimtage · 12/05/08, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Enthorn

I'm just not sure what this build is supposed to accomplish though. At 2000 spell power, Ice Barrier is absorbing 4900 damage every 24-30 seconds. This is great for soloing and PvP, but it has little application in a raid setting where your job is not to minimize the damage you otherwise would have taken (not preventable damage), but to DPS. Even in a 5-man setting, most raid damage is caused by spells. You'd be better off with Magic Absorption (slipped into an 18.53.0 build, or even just spec deep frost and grab clearcasting and focus magic, with magic absorption along the way).

Look at it this way: you've put points into Cold as Ice, but you don't have water elemental. You have points in Winter's Chill, but what is your main nuke? There are no points in Empowered Frostbolt, Chilled to the Bone, or Brain Freeze. This is significant DPS loss for Frostbolt. And if you're going the Frostfire Bolt route, then you've given up Empowered Fire, Hot Streak, Burnout, and Pyromaniac. And for the same reasons, Fireball wouldn't be viable.

What it comes down to is needlessly investing points to grab talents you don't need, and ignoring talents that will help you play your class/role better.

Elitistjerks definitely is not a forum filled with "elitist jerks" in the strictest definition of the words. Instead, it is filled with 'intelligent' theorycrafters who have an interest in exceeding their expectations. Quite frankly, the "lazier mages" that you mention, I question why they would be here in the first place. Saying you aren't taking Hot Streak, Living Bomb, and Scorch, because it requires attention... I just don't understand. Why bother speculating on a build at all then? Why even post about it?

Sorry but, what the hell are you talking about? He asked for a build, I gave him one to his spec's. He asked for a FFB build and Ice Barrier. Is that not exactly what I gave him?

I didn't speculate on the build, there was no speculation whatsoever. I think you need to look up what that word means or something. Yes, the build allows just pure frostfire bolt spam and it's a dps cut from the living bomb frostfire build (which, by the way, I mentioned in my FIRST post if you bothered to read). If I was still playing my mage, I would most certainly be living bomb, but he didn't ask what I wanted to be, he asked for a spec with certain talents, and that's exactly what I gave him. If you have a problem with helping people, then simply don't reply. There's no need to flame people who fulfil others requests.

I don't see why this has any need in this thread. I could give you thousands of reasons why the build suggested on opening page is better than the build I linked to, but why do that when they've already been given? Again, the guy asked for a frostfire build with ice barrier, so that is exactly what I gave him, is it not?

Tyrian · 12/06/08, 12:12 AM

What addon are you using to warn you about all your procs?

My hotstreak waste rate (and time to use rate) was unacceptable, having to search through 3+ rows off buffs in a raid situation. Power Auras (as many others have mentioned) is just cater made to handle this perfectly, by alerting you in a customizable fashion to your hot streak buff. I like this, unmissable, visual alert for when I proc Hot Streak: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4...tstreakkv6.jpg

Edit: Definetely would like to see a mage UI/addon thread.

Maje · 12/06/08, 8:20 AM

I have 4 groups set up in EBB:

              group 1

group4        X            group 2
         
              group 3

Where G1 is scorch, G2 is My Living Bomb, G3 is Hot Streak proc, and G4 is procced/activated buffs - IV,trinkets,combustion,mana gem. Imo it's impossible to dps properly without clearly seeing all these things.

BeeLz · 12/06/08, 9:06 AM

The only timer I really use is the one for scorch debuff.
SCT gives a decent enough warning when hot streak procs and I usually keep count of crits and living bomb ticks.
I tend to focus more like that and have to watch a lot of other things as well as I'm co leading raids at the moment.

Qanre · 12/06/08, 11:47 AM

Has anyone mathed out LB vs Cold Snap (for an extra icy veins or two)? I would assume LB would be much higher raw damage, but I noticed during h.naxx25 on thadd, I was doing more dps leaving LB out; LB was sucking up so much mana I was losing dps to having to evo at about 25% anyway (I would evo right after killing stalagg, so it was up again before the fight ended). I averaged about 4600 dps without LB, and somewhere around 4200 or 4300 with using LB (our WWS isnt posted yet, so I'm not sure on the actual numbers). I didn't use LB on Loatheb and hovered in the 3900 region.

That got me thinking, I'm not using this talent at all bosses (I use it during trash though), why not get Cold Snap instead for some extra icy veins (and an emergency ice block if the tanks start slacking!)

Thoughts? Thanks.