Has anyone mathed out LB vs Cold Snap (for an extra icy veins or two)? I would assume LB would be much higher raw damage, but I noticed during h.naxx25 on thadd, I was doing more dps leaving LB out; LB was sucking up so much mana I was losing dps to having to evo at about 25% anyway (I would evo right after killing stalagg, so it was up again before the fight ended). I averaged about 4600 dps without LB, and somewhere around 4200 or 4300 with using LB (our WWS isnt posted yet, so I'm not sure on the actual numbers). I didn't use LB on Loatheb and hovered in the 3900 region.
That got me thinking, I'm not using this talent at all bosses (I use it during trash though), why not get Cold Snap instead for some extra icy veins (and an emergency ice block if the tanks start slacking!)
Thoughts? Thanks.
This is answered in many places in the mage forums. Please make sure you use the search function before posting questions that have been answered many times.
Bomb is better. Just because you saw some other numbers on a fight (Thaddius) that favors Icy Veins does not make it better in every situation. You should be using Bomb on bosses and trash alike.
hi there. What kind of dps numbers are you all seeing on patchwerk? ive heard accounts of ~5k, but i cant seem to break 3500.
I did just over 4200 dps last Patchwerk. Our guild always bloodlusts early, so no hasted molten fury. I also didn't have 4pc set bonus on that (got it later that night though).
On the discussion of hit capping, as much as its theorycrafted that hit obviously becomes worth less with the EP FFB bug for personal dps, you're also playing the game of potentially lowering raid dps if you're the scorch maintainer. Sure, most people probably have it glyphed (as I do), but if it misses, I know that I'm mid cast into my next FFB before I know that it has missed (especially given that I raid with 450-500ms latency), and that it'll take me 2 casts after my FFB to get it stacked again. So thats possibly around ~5 seconds of the raid not having 10% spell crit debuff on the boss.
The minor dps increase you might get by only hit capping FFB and putting points into other stats, is overshadowed by the potential for lowering the raid dps by quite a lot in my opinion. Until I can solo Wrath bosses, I'll be hit capping my fire spells as well.
So thats possibly around ~5 seconds of the raid not having 10% spell crit debuff on the boss.
The minor dps increase you might get by only hit capping FFB and putting points into other stats, is overshadowed by the potential for lowering the raid dps by quite a lot in my opinion. Until I can solo Wrath bosses, I'll be hit capping my fire spells as well.
With some quick math I came up with a rough estimate of one scorch miss every third 5-minute boss fight. That's with a 3% miss rate, which would take 78.69 hit rating. Converting it to spell power using the gem coefficient (16 hit = 19 spell power) gives 93.44 spell power. I think it's safe to assume that if this were directly obtainable, it would be well worth scorch dropping every third boss fight. This would especially be true if you're forced to use +spirit items to cap hit, which is not a good idea.
With some quick math I came up with a rough estimate of one scorch miss every third 5-minute boss fight. That's with a 3% miss rate, which would take 78.69 hit rating. Converting it to spell power using the gem coefficient (16 hit = 19 spell power) gives 93.44 spell power. I think it's safe to assume that if this were directly obtainable, it would be well worth scorch dropping every third boss fight. This would especially be true if you're forced to use +spirit items to cap hit, which is not a good idea.
But that isn't addressing the fact that the other say 5 caster dps classes in the raid each cast 2 spells within that timeframe that received 10% less critical strike chance. For example, say those 5 other caster dps classes were all FFB spec mages with 40% spell crit (before the scorch debuff), and were all passive hasted enough to produce 2.5 second FFBs, so thats 10 FFBs cast within that timeframe that you're looking at.
So say that their FFBs were all hitting for 3500 non-crit and 11550 crit, out of 10 casts with 40% crit rate the total damage would be:
(6x3500) + (4x11550) = 67200 or 13440 dps.
With 50% crit rate (i.e. no dropped scorch):
(5x3500) + (5x11550) = 75250 or 15050 dps.
So that dropped scorch lowered raid dps by 1610 dps for that period it was missing. Of course you'd never have 6 mages in a raid as your caster dps, so the way crit affects other caster classes is different, but it'd still create lower raid dps on average.
I read earlier in the thread about people looking for a good debuff/buff addon to track scorch etc.
I strongly suggest taking a look at power auras, it is a real gem.
So that dropped scorch lowered raid dps by 1610 dps for that period it was missing. Of course you'd never have 6 mages in a raid as your caster dps, so the way crit affects other caster classes is different, but it'd still create lower raid dps on average.
1610 raid DPS for 5 seconds every 15 minutes of DPS time is a grand total of 9 DPS lost. And that's assuming the highest crit coefficient spell in the game. To break even you'd only have to redistribute the 79 hit rating to make up 9 DPS.
I notice so much difference in dps as ffb mage, one week you get 70% crit and 20000 hot streak procs, the other week you get only 3 hot streak procs over the whole patchwerk fight. One week you miss nothing with 8.5% buffed hitrate, the other week you miss 2 living bombs, 1 scorch and 2 pyroblasts.
It quite annoys me that my dps on patchwerk this week wasnt anything higher as my dps on the first naxx 25 man run while Ive changed like 60% of my gear in the meanwhile. I gained like 10% critrating, yet in the fight itself I end up with 20% less crit as 2 weeks ago.
as reference, here are the wws logs of both fights
1610 raid DPS for 5 seconds every 15 minutes of DPS time is a grand total of 9 DPS lost.
Total of fights added up doesn't matter, an individual fight on its own is all that matters. Besides the fact that there are only a couple of fights that are anywhere near 5 minutes in length currently. When we actually get some challenging content (hopefully Ulduar fits that bill), higher raid dps for attempts on hard bosses will matter. It doesn't really matter for current content, as no one would be getting anywhere near enrage timers anyway.
But like I said earlier, its not hard to get hit capped once you start getting decked out in gear anyway. SWP gear lacked hit, so if you're coming with a lot of gear from there, then you might be struggling at first. But a hell of a lot of the stuff that doesn't have hit on it has mp5, so thats not exactly giving you other stats that you want either.
I notice so much difference in dps as ffb mage, one week you get 70% crit and 20000 hot streak procs, the other week you get only 3 hot streak procs over the whole patchwerk fight. One week you miss nothing with 8.5% buffed hitrate, the other week you miss 2 living bombs, 1 scorch and 2 pyroblasts.
It quite annoys me that my dps on patchwerk this week wasnt anything higher as my dps on the first naxx 25 man run while Ive changed like 60% of my gear in the meanwhile. I gained like 10% critrating, yet in the fight itself I end up with 20% less crit as 2 weeks ago.
as reference, here are the wws logs of both fights
You shouldn't be sad! Your comparing a very good dps Patchwerk (4.2k) to a terrific dps Patchwerk (5.4k).
This is one of the fun things about Frostfire bolt mechanics. You can be good, or you can be awesome. But you won't know which until you do the fight to find out. I knew week in, week out what I'd be on brutallus. A little variance helps spice things up for the better.
'Hot streak' and Frostfire bolts main power (strong crit scaling) really do encourage the spell to have this variance, which I think is a good thing. People shouldn't use FFS/HS with the mindset it should be like Brutallus Fireball DPS days, it's just not that kind of spell.
One of the biggest mage irks pre-WOTLK was that we wanted a 'more fun spell' to use. Frostfire bolt and Hotstreak fill a bunch of categories very nicely. However, I would like to see them try to open up a more viable deep-frost FFB spec. It doesnt have to be more DPS than fire, but still preserve the frost playstyle and give players the option to spec into the fun, new spell.
I'd disagree - whilst I *love* the mechanic for hot streak and how mages now play in raids, the streakyness is too much for the health of the game. Crit always varies for everyone, but for mages with hot streak it's now insanely random - a difference of 28% through no mention of player skill is too much. No other class can vary by so much - how can you balance mage dps when the numbers can vary so madly?
I suspect hot streak will be changed to a combustion style counter. Every 3 crits, you get an instant pyroblast or something like that, to at least get rid of the timing of crits problem.
I really dislike the randomness of FFB; largely because it completely and utterly overshadows any skill involved in raid PvE dps(and yes, there is some, despite people who like to repeat that you're just spamming one button). Little things like not moving quite as far as others to avoid hazards, casting Scorch before Hot Streak Pyro when Scorch is close to needing a refresh, using Fire Blast when you have to move, and timing your cooldowns correctly were the difference between good Mage dps and excellent Mage dps in TBC, but now they're completely and TOTALLY irrelevant compared to 'what crit rate did you have on FFB?'. I mean, the RNG of crit used to be a pretty big factor in Mage dps, moreso than any other class, but now it's just wildly ridiculous how important it is.
When you combine one of the slowest-attack classes in the game(so our crit rate does not average out very well on any given fight) with such a high crit multiplier and Hot Streak, you end up with a class that has 2-3x the variance of any other. This is especially glaring when you compare us to Hunters, the other currently very-high ranged dps class. Hunters and Mages are competitive, but you might not know it because their dps is much, much more consistent.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
In long raid fights the suggested FFB build does so much damage it makes me giggle. HOWEVER, I am really having some dps issues on trash, usually those 5-man fights that only last 6-10 seconds per mob (and too little mobs to make aoe worth it.
On these mobs I am abandoning LB since the mob is never alive long enough for it to explode. So basically I am running this: Scotch 2x (5 stack with glyph), Fireblast, FFB spam (use fireblast when its up), and Pyro on Hot Steak procs. This leaves me putting up a crappy 1400-1600dps when I am doing 2600-2800 on Boss Fights.
Here is my profile, keep in mind I am still picking up crit gear after being frost for over a year: The World of Warcraft Armory
I really dislike the randomness of FFB; largely because it completely and utterly overshadows any skill involved in raid PvE dps(and yes, there is some, despite people who like to repeat that you're just spamming one button). Little things like not moving quite as far as others to avoid hazards, casting Scorch before Hot Streak Pyro when Scorch is close to needing a refresh, using Fire Blast when you have to move, and timing your cooldowns correctly were the difference between good Mage dps and excellent Mage dps in TBC, but now they're completely and TOTALLY irrelevant compared to 'what crit rate did you have on FFB?'. I mean, the RNG of crit used to be a pretty big factor in Mage dps, moreso than any other class, but now it's just wildly ridiculous how important it is.
When you combine one of the slowest-attack classes in the game(so our crit rate does not average out very well on any given fight) with such a high crit multiplier and Hot Streak, you end up with a class that has 2-3x the variance of any other. This is especially glaring when you compare us to Hunters, the other currently very-high ranged dps class. Hunters and Mages are competitive, but you might not know it because their dps is much, much more consistent.
One thing that I'd heard is that putting 2 points in permafrost not only extended the chill effect of FFB, but also added an extra tick of the DOT effect. This might not be the world's most useful thing in a raid setting where you'll continually have the effect up, but just in general I assume that it's not going to hurt.
No Firethrowing, but it doesn't change FFB anyway, so I figured it wouldn't matter. I hate losing Blast Wave (don't really care about Dragon's Breath), but think that it should work all right.
Has anyone tried a build like this? I'm only just beginning to play my vanilla mage again, and am just getting into Northrend content, so I'm not really able to test.
So far my splits are almost the same as Manly's (who posted a 4804 dps)
.............Me...Manly
ffb.........51....48
ignite.....19....22
pyro.......13....17
LB..........11....8
I think I understand why his pyro's dmg % are higher because of higher "real" crit which comes from 10 vs 25 man buff/debuffs???
So thinking it was my gear, I've gone insane (100+ badges this weekend) and got every possible enchant.
Is the 10 vs 25 man buffs really equate to that much more difference in damage? or is it a multifaceted problem, my hit + the lack of 25 man buffs? Is it the lack of raid DPS? Because if the guy dies faster my cooldowns would been divided by a smaller amount of time for DPS calculation....
Compare yourself against other 10 man groups with a similar composition, to begin with. To be nice though:
Manly is in a 25man raid. You're not even in a very optimal 10man.
He had 20% more crit than you, for whatever reason, had a bloodlust, never missed on a single spell (only his images missed, which you didn't even use) and generally had a better raid set up than you.
One thing that I'd heard is that putting 2 points in permafrost not only extended the chill effect of FFB, but also added an extra tick of the DOT effect. This might not be the world's most useful thing in a raid setting where you'll continually have the effect up, but just in general I assume that it's not going to hurt.
Your build is reasonable. However you do no need the points in permafrost. The max rank FFB ticks for a grand total of 22. I doubt that will help in killing anything at all. It will be better to get points in improved blizzard and shatter which will greatly help your trash and 5 man dps. Even having dragon breath and blastwave is better
Originally Posted by Shorlin
I read earlier in the thread about people looking for a good debuff/buff addon to track scorch etc.
I strongly suggest taking a look at power auras, it is a real gem.
Is there anyway to make it track only your own living bomb debuff? I had it track no living bomb on boss which works pretty fine in 10 man but once there is more than 1 mage, the other mage LB will make the no LB debuff not appear for my power aura.
So I have been fooling around with FFB spec since I hit 80 and thus far I am enjoying the results.
I have also been doing an extensive amount of reading and there really doesn't seem to be a clear answer... To whether Being hit capped (for all spells) or being only hit caped for FFB (9-10% total range w/o raid and talents) is the way to go.
Basically what I am asking is should I be gemming more hit? Currently my stats for being hit cap, and what I want to use to raid are this (roughly): *These are only with AI and Molten armor*
Hit cap gear - Non-Hit cap
1655 - 1675 Spellpower
289 - 233 Hit
33.37% - 34.10% Fire Crit
262 - 364 Haste
For those of you that want simple stat convert:
20Sp, .7%Crit, 102Haste or 56Hit
I only have had 1 raid chance to try not being hit cap, and the results seemed slightly in favor of not being hit capped. Raiding with 3 other mages means the chance that Scorch falls is slim to none, and missing a Single Living bomb or a possible Fireblast doesn't seem to be that bad of a DPS loss. Opinions would be great, an actual answer would be amazing :p
Is there anyway to make it track only your own living bomb debuff? I had it track no living bomb on boss which works pretty fine in 10 man but once there is more than 1 mage, the other mage LB will make the no LB debuff not appear for my power aura.
Yes in the lattest build 2.5.9 there is a box you can check to only track buffs/debuffs cast by the player. I use this on living bomb.
You did your calculations with 2000 spellpower and 0% crit. At that level crit rating is better, point for point, than spell power. Crit rating has a much sharper diminishing return than spell power, which is why it ceases to be a better dps increase than spell power pretty quickly. At 0 spell power and 0% crit 1 spell power gives a greater increase than 1 crit rating. All of this ignores the fact that you cast spells other than FFB in a normal environment, especially living bomb which favors spell power even more.
Thought we might kick this about a bit and add to the OP for the sake of completeness.
Currently it seems that [Mixture of the Frost Wyrm] trumps double elixirs as the only suitable Guardian Elixir [Elixir of Mighty Thoughts] does not add that much, regardless of which Battle Elixir (Haste/Spellpower/Crit) you use. Buff food would also be potentially debatable, dependant on your current stat equivalence, though personally I am using [Firecracker Salmon]
Last edited by Seonid : 12/08/08 at 10:15 AM.
The Mage theme song.
<+icesurfer> this is the fucking security industry; if you want ethics, join the Red Cross
Thought we might kick this about a bit and add to the OP for the sake of completeness.
Currently it seems that [Mixture of the Frost Wyrm] trumps double elixirs as the only suitable Guardian Elixir [Elixir of Mighty Thoughts] does not add that much, regardless of which Battle Elixir (Haste/Spellpower/Crit) you use. Buff food would also be potentially debatable, dependant on your current stat equivalence, though personally I am using [Firecracker Salmon]
I have found that the +40 hit food is actually a nice consumable to have instead of the +46 spell dmg. I don't always need the hit - trash, running heroics, questing etc. So to gem for it on a good set of gear when I can simply eat food and get the equivalent of 1.5% +hit is pretty nice.
Yeah I added both in as you guys were typing.
I did not list the many haste or crit food since I feel it would be rather pointless to do so.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
12/06/08, 12:11 PM
