So wait.. use MI at the end of the macro or just use it after my other short term buffs have expired (situational cases like boss aoes not withstanding obviously)

Inoko's quoted text mentions nothing about saving Mirror Image for Molten Fury. Please be sure to read the thread before jumping into the conversation. As Inoko did mention, Mirror Image does not trigger the global cooldown on spells that are on the global cooldown. This means you can use Mirror Image and immediately use Frostfire Bolt. You can't, however, use Frostfire Bolt and immediately use a trinket. Trinkets, mana gems, combustion all do not trigger the global cooldown. That means Mirror Image triggers a global cooldown on them, due to the odd mechanics of the spell.

Hence, the following macro will result in mirror image being cast and nothing else:

/cast mirror image
/cast combustion
/cast icy veins
/use 13

By moving mirror image to the end of the macro, you avoid this conflict. This discussion also seems to be getting side-tracked immensely. A few searches on Mirror Image will reveal all of the information I've needlessly posted above. As far as when to use Mirror Images, why wouldn't you use it at the beginning of the fight when you're using all of your other cooldowns? You aren't using Mirror Image for the damage they do. It's paltry damage and they usually die immediately. Mirror Image is used for the threat-management component.

The lack of visibility into our threat makes them very terrifying to use.

I think our paladins are tired of me calling for a pre-emptive hand of salv when I get big crit streaks at the start and have no idea what's happening with the tank.


Makes me wish for a mage-only omen that estimated our accumulated threat and compared it versus the tank's threat as given by Blizzard.

Kyth, I'll be as frank as possible: when you use mirror image and its 30 second duration is up, if you've somehow surpassed the tank in threat at this point (when the threat is returned to you), you need a better tank.

If this isn't possible, then you should be using invisibility at 27 seconds. When you see the fade effect of invisibility transpire, immediately cast your next frostfire bolt, or living bomb, or whatever your next cast is. There is a slight moment after invisibility reduces your threat to 0, and before you enter the state of being invisible (where it drops your target from your view). This window is what you can take advantage of.

With practice, you can seemlessly use invisibility, drop all threat, and return to casting. What will happen is that when invisiblity hits 0 seconds remaining and the buff drops, you will immediately begin your next cast. At this point, you will lose your target, however, your cast will still go through. Now it's just a matter of retargetting while casting.

Frankly. if fusion can earn The Immortal achievement, I'm going to go out on a limb and say their tanks do a fine job.
With some good luck and crit streaks as well as cooldown usage, it's not that hard to pull off a tank at the start of a fight.

A primary theme of this thread is that Frostfire spec's DPS is outrageously variable, thanks to Hot Streak. If you get a lot of consecutive crits one fight, and few the next, your DPS can easily see a swing that large. The RNG makes your damage highly unpredictable.

I am going to guess that the #9 ranked US guild (per WoWProgress) has passable tanks.

Our tank TPS is great, normally I don't care too much about threat, or it's at the end and I can time things well.

But normally I don't care about DPS either, because most of this content is trivial and has been since launch (save healing on patch the very first reset when we were in there -- but even then DPS was meaningless.)


On Tenebron, the 3 seconds I'd have wasted on invisibitility were critical when we were learning the fight. It was deemed preferable to vig + salv our mages than to have us both spend 3 seconds (around 8% of his lifespan) at sub 35% doing zero dps. And with a tank in partial mitigation gear, blowing bloodlust 10% into it in order to get Tenebron down as fast as possible.... I don't think it was our MT's fault.

Yes the fight is easier now as people have more gear, yes it probably seems silly now that any of that mattered, yes that might be a unique occurrence that never will happen again anywhere.

And then there was 10-man sarth with 3 drakes, where the tank is also responsible for helping with adds-- I can't fault them in that case either.


Or we may find, like Blizzard said, that threat gets harder as the game progresses, and mages will care again. What is my "only on Tenebron on Sarth" occurrence will turn into something more common.

Acting like threat is never a concern, and like we always can invis whenever we want I think ignores the only cases it does matter: when the fight is actually hard.

Not to mention I'd be surprised if raid bosses remain tauntable -- that also seems like something in place to make the intro fights easier, and pulling off a tank at the end of 30 seconds may actually matter. (Our DK just asked us to call 5 seconds before MI dropped, and he just taunted it back.)


I still hesitate to use MI "too soon" because if the mob isn't dead by the time it drops, I don't like not knowing my threat. (I was especially nervous this week since, as another poster noted, we got Immortal -- and my god, if I pulled aggro and screwed that up, I'd never live it down. That plus spending raid time in the last few weeks on Sarth10 and 25 with 3 drakes up has left me a bit skittish.)

That all said, the threat component is awesomely-amazing, because it means I can open up like the devil at the start of 4H, since we just burn down Thane in less than three meteors and I never have to care about pulling off the tank in those 30 seconds.



(edit) also, what Footspeedy said. Glad I'm not alone in this.

(edit2) Manly apparently pulled aggro off his tank on Grobbulus this week with his mirror images at the end. Anyone want to go on record here saying EJ's tanks clearly suck?

What you guys are describing is counter to the mechanics of Mirror Image though. You're saying it's possible to pull aggro from a tank, and I don't disagree. And I am in no way questioning the capabilities of the tanks in anyone's guild or the DPS. I'm not going to look up someone and judge them based on the guild they are in and the content they've cleared.

But then saying you aren't using Mirror Image because you may pull aggro is countering the mechanics of Mirror Image. Is there an alternative? I can see some argument for saving Mirror Image for when you have pulled aggro. But to ignore its capabilities and say that, because you can't see the threat you are generating while mirror image is up, you are going to opt to not use it immediately... that doesn't make any sense to me.

And yes, citing extreme circumstances are just that, extreme circumstances. But not wanting to use 3 seconds of invisibility because your DPS might suffer even in those times? I'm lost. It seems people have taken my "better tank" comment as a direct insult on the tanking capabilities of a tank in a "top guild." And yet when Blizzard gives you the means to a) negate threat for a time being and b) remove accumulated threat, several people have chosen to disregard both of these.

I've never hesitated to use mirror images, and if it's any indication by the replies thus far from others, players seem to know their own threat, or should know, well enough to know whether or not invisibility is in order. I apologize if my "better tank" comment was rather rash, but it was said mostly in jest. From my own experience, disregarding extreme circumstances, the threat being generated by tanks is so far ahead of what they were doing in BC, that threat remains a non-issue when you properly manage Mirror Image and invisibility.

How about if I say I'm not going to wear a blindfold when I go to drive home this evening? Because that's pretty much the same reasoning.

Being able to make an informed decision about when to use invis is better than not.

Err no its a classic case of MI bug pulling aggro.

No, because as I said: we might lose the fight if 2 of our 5 DPS on sarth10 are spending ~8% of Tenebron's lifetime casting invis (and that time is sub-35%.) I never said a word about my DPS.

Point is no one cares about anything other than the hard fights. You're right, who cares about losing DPS most of the time. But when it matters, it *really* matters. And those are generally the cases where it's a bigger deal to lose the time to invis as well.

Maybe Sarth3D will be the only fight in all of WoW where things will be segmented such and tuned this tightly that it will matter. Or maybe not.


(edit) there's also the point that, all I said was: I would like to know my threat. ebbv's analogy is nice there.

I don't want to spend 3 seconds on invis unless I have to -- especially if it's not the "right" point to use invis necessarily.

For the MI bug to pull aggro you have to be near your tank's threat was my point. I didn't realize Enthorn was arguing with us that with invis it was impossible to pull aggro, I thought he meant without it. Obviously it's impossible with it, if the fight is constructed so you can reasonably use it.

Then I apologize, as your original comments regarding mirror image were rather vague, in that they did not refer to any specific fight, and instead seemed to encompass all fights, regardless of which point in time you are using mirror images. (And in your case, you mentioned not wanting to use mirror images at the start of the fight.)

I realize you don't want to spend 3 seconds on invisibility. It's an entirely valid point, in the same light as not wanting to use evocation. And I also realize that you are simply saying it would be nice to have an add-on, like Omen used to do, that would parse the log in real time to determine your TPS. But in the meantime, just as you have the ability to judge whether or not you need to use evocation for a few ticks, or at all, you also have the ability to see the damage you are outputting. Making a call from that, on whether to use invisiblity or not, is entirely reasonable.

Except you cant tell when the tank misses, gets parried, or even has an avoidance streak and becomes rage starved.

Being able to push DPS is not possible without a threatmeter. Even with the upgraded threat in 3.0, you need to be able to see threat. You cannot make an informed decision about Invis with the state of mirror image.

Honestly, I just watch everyone else's threat levels and go off experience as to how my threat level relates to theirs, all the while watching my hot streak counts. I haven't been wrong yet, and I don't always use invisibility. I know anecdotal accounts are often far from relative, but they have some merit.

Sure, it would be nice to see the threat level I will be at after the duration mirror image. But right now, I haven't looked for an add-on to do that, and Blizzard's UI of course doesn't display it, so I've learned to play without it. And when I'm in doubt, I use invisibility. The three seconds is entirely comparable to evocation. You aren't going to keep DPSing unless you use it, and you aren't going to keep casting unless you use evocation. I know that's not the answer anyone is looking for, to use it "when it doubt," but then if that's not a satisfactory answer, what is the point of this discussion?

Is there any real point in saying, "I don't use Mirror Image because I may pull aggro in this one circumstance?" For the vast majority of situations, you either a) won't pull aggro when time is up and b) aren't in a position in which 3 seconds of lost DPS matters, but being able to continue DPS does.

Judging by the sheer volume of players who have posted and discussed their own macros, which include mirror image, on this board, and in this very thread, it would appear that most players fall into one of the two categories outlined above. And for the extreme circumstances, all of this can just be disregarded then.

Enthorn, Anecdotal accounts off of your personal expereince are all well and good, but when they include no experience in 25 man Naxx, Sarth, or Malygos, they come up lacking.

This all goes back to the question that was asked:

If 30 seconds from now, the tank is going to have more threat then you do, theres no problem using mirror image.

If the previous condition is true, and your threat level might spike to above the tank during that 30 seconds, then using mirror images is actually to your benefit. FFB spec is obviously streaky in terms of Burst damage and threat. Hot streak procs and ridiculously large FFB crits can cuase your threat to skyrocket breifly. Using Mirror image to basically normalize the threat gain is fine, but not without its drawbacks.

If you cannot be sure that the tank will have generate more threat then you during the 30 second duration of mirror image, then mirror image takes away your ability to manage threat. It does. Theres no denying this. It puts you into the pre KTM dark ages. Sure you can invis, but you honestly have no idea if its necessary. You've effectively blidnfolded yourself and all you can do is to swing your arms wildly and hope that the pinata is in front off you.

In full burn, fully buffed maxDPS situations, this is not a position you want to be in. In such a case, using mirror image to 'normalize' your threat over the first 30 seconds is the wrong choice (assuming the mob lives past the 30 second mark). Now, there are startlingly few situations where this occurs in the game as it exists. Tenebron on Sarth3d is the main one. So it's not a big deal. Sure, you can do suboptimal things like invis without being sure that you need it, let up without being sure that you need to, or other things. You can also have your melee sink into the slime on Patchwerk. It's not the right decision, but it will probably get you a result that works for the most part.

I disagree with you here. On an avg. 10 min fight for arguments sake, being able to blow all major CDs in the first thirty seconds results in a massive overall damage increase as doing so allows an additional set of CD rotations with the last set usually stacking with MF.

Even though you aren't sure if you need to invis, by doing so you are setting yourself up for the rest of the fight to be well below the MTs aggro by starting at 0 threat 31 seconds after engagement and only having the capacity to do modest DPS having already blown all CDs.

By the time you are anywhere near the MTs threat again, CDs would be off cooldown.

Hardly suboptimal use.

Pheroz - From one perspective you can be right, but all it comes down to is tanks who are lacking in skills. Producing TPS these days is really easy and you shouldn' be able to pull aggro. If you manage to pull aggro after an MI at the start coupled with CD's I would rather take a look at the tanks game play rather than blaming myself.
If you wait 45 sec, then use CD's and pull aggro - its really not your fault for not using MI it's the tank just straight up not playing good enough. With this reality, atleast how I see it, I find no real use for MI's on a target that's been tanked for more than 30 seconds.

I don't use MI's on Tenebron as you describe it, wichever class has been tanking it (DK's, Ferals, Warriors) - I save it for the AoE-nuke after he's dead to make sure I don't pull any newly spawned whelps/blazes. MI's only use is to cushion the first fragile second during a pull or AoE-nuke in my opinion. There's a frame of 10-15 sec where a lucky crit streak can't be outplayed by the tank. This is assuming you're like me, who likes to start early - I know I cast a split second before the tank has made contact.

Point of this would be to, spank tanks more for additional TPS. I know I've always played after that philosophy and at times it's not fun for the tanks but generally they learn to play better from it. This rather than always winning the benefit of the doubt of his TPS being maxed or not.


edit: In respons to the poster below. I'm not typing "never", I'm typing "no real use" - it's quite the differance. Meaning I find the benefit to not be of big importance post initial aggro assuming the tank and mage plays it properly. (Watching Omen, calling for HoS, tank is TPS'ing, etc)

Do tanks always play perfectly? No. But to assume it's the fault of the tanks if you pull aggro after MI has expired when you have some means to prevent this is rather short sighted. Particularly on Tenebron in Sarth + 3, RNG under all cooldowns popped can greatly influence where you land on the threat meter relative to tank. I've used MI on Tenebron, and I've used MI during aoe, and I've even used it once we're on Sarth solely for the paltry DPS contribution.

Can you work around the inevitable blind spot in threat? Sure. But would it be easier to use if there were a way to monitor threat generation while under the fade effect? Absolutely.

The point is it's a versatile tool that should be used to help your raid succeed at the encounter. Sometimes this means squeezing every bit of DPS out of them that you can, sometimes this means using it solely for threat mitigation. But blanket statements such as "always pop MI at the start", "always use them with your other CD's", and "never use them on a target that's been tanked for 30 s" really do a disservice to the ability. In my opinion, there's no hard and fast rule other than "use it when you need to."

What I don't understand... why don't you just use Mirror Image about 10 sec into the fight with the add, instead of at the very beginning? Starting with LB + 2xSc, you shouldn't pull aggro with the first few FFBs even with a pyro or two, and popping MI after 10s means it will last until it's dead. I really don't see the problem in that particular fight.

With the standard 25-man Naxx Bosses, I find myself with aggro problems only at a very few specific bosses, such as Heigan where the tank has to kite the boss all the time and cannot build aggro at the usual speed, or Malygos when I have the +Dmg debuff. Never ever had aggro problems on a Patchwerk-style fight.

I'll try to explain this without spoiling or going into strats. A drake lands mid-fight, you must kill that drake quickly. All raid cooldowns are used immediately to achieve this. Most people work a Mirror Image into their normal "all cooldowns" macro, and this macro is used to start the burn on the drake. If you do 150,000 threat while MI is active and the tank does - or is limited to, because of other factors in the fight - 110,000 threat, you will pull aggro when MI wears off. And you won't know until it's too late, meaning you'll have to invis during a burn phase.

You could always suck it up and use it later in the drake's life so that the threat doesn't return until the drake is dead. You might lose a bit of +damage conversion to the images but they do paltry damage anyway.

EDIT1: Politeness

EDIT2: For the people arguing god knows what (personal preference?) on the next page. When someone comes to the mage forum to discuss a problem they have using mage spells on a particularly difficult fight, it's generally a good idea to make suggestions besides "if that's a problem, your raid sucks" and "everyone should do what works", especially if you haven't done the fight. People who have done the fight have given many reasons why the problem exists and have offered ideas to get around it. People who haven't have told them it isn't actually a problem.

I find it rather disheartening that this discussion has turned from, "When is the optimal time to use Mirror Image?" into a mud slinging contest of which fights and achievements people have done. It is not necessary to make accusations of anyone not understanding threat generation and management based on whether or not they've done 10-man raids, but not 25-man raids, or whether they've killed a boss, but not killed a boss under these conditions. Suffice to say...

...sounds like every other, "Burn this mob as fast as possible" fight. I am in no way belittling the difficulty of the fight and the achievements in question, but "blow all your cooldowns and DPS full" is not new. The fact that you can DPS full for 27 seconds, whether you use mirror image immediately on pull, or 10 seconds into the fight, and prevent any possibility of pulling aggro via invisibility, leads me to assume that no one should be pulling aggro on this fight.

Considering the difficulty of the fight (I presume, anyway), I imagine all means would be taken to maximize DPS, and at the same time, keep threat within line. Not using Mirror Image for fear of not being able to see threat generated seems to be counter-productive. You aren't producing less threat by not using mirror image. And the 3 seconds you stop casting to use invisibility are minimal compared to the ensuing wipe that would occur if you did pull aggro.

And if you never use mirror image, but you are generating the same amount of high threat, you're going to be using invisibility anyway. Due to Mirror Image being bugged, it goes without saying that if you're saving your mirror image for when you are about to pull aggro, your mirror images are going to pull aggro for you.

For a sarth 3D there's no need to use MI on the first 10s of tenebron dps. A double scortch / lb + FFB*2 won't get you to aggro pull thanks to hunters and a good tank. But yes i don't see how you can't use it, and like said, sarth 3D is THE fight where MI comes into a vital use. But you can keep you invi for the second drake.
The first drake usualy dies before the 30s are past. If not ... well IB