3. Dividing by 1.15 to make 1 crit rating be worth 100dmg as a nice base number, you get:
1 crit = 100dmg
1 haste = 186dmg
1 sp = 172dmg
I didn't go through your math but... I'm glaring at the haste number you are getting. No where have I seen haste be anywhere close to SP at attainable gear levels right now, and likewise I've never seen anything indicated haste was a very significant upgrade over crit either.
When you say 1 sp adds 1.24 dmg to a ffb hit and 2.64 dmg to a crit, did you account for the 40% dmg from ignite? I believe FFB crits do 225% impact dmg. 1.24*225%=2.79 which is slightly above what you are adding for a crit and that's not including ignite at all, which would be an additional 40% of that 2.79 number --> 3.906.
I think this would probably fix both the sp and crit values you are coming up with.
Blizzards crit modifier I'm not sure what you mean by this? Each event crits as a normal frost spell, so a 1.5 modifier without Ice Shards, a 2.0 with, the math to calculate its damage after crits is the same as any other spell, it just averages out the RNG faster with more events. I've got a massive log file growing from the PTR for FoF testing that has a lot of untalented frost crits from ~475 damage events doing ~710 damage on crits.
Unfortunately I don't trust my coefficient tests at level 76 with the downranking penalty effect, I might get tainted results, but once I hit 80 (hopefully soon if I get time to play) I'll be doing a round on the ones that havent been recorded recently.
Well, I went and used the formula as is, and the numbers seemed to make no sense to me. 4k blizzard crit ticks ? I don't remember blizzard doing that kind of damage. Although maybe I always hit the aoe cap and ended up doing far less.
In any case, I put the calculations back to the 209% crit multiplier on non-4pct7 for blizzard.
Originally Posted by Roywyn
Blizzard ticks every second, not every 2 seconds. Formula is correct otherwise. ~14% scaling per tick, 114% over 8 seconds.
Not sure what you mean with "crit multiplier spread across the 4 dots".
Every single hit can crit individually, and crits like any other frost spell for 209% with Ice Shards and CSD.
Crit chance goes through the roof with FoF, and Frostbite is just icing if the mobs are rootable too.
Living Bomb is indeed fixed damage on the explosion, no range.
Razorice is 5% frost (and frostfire) damage, not sure why you think it's 4%.
The number "5" inside the icon of Frost Vulnerability - Spell - World of Warcraft means that it stacks to 5 in-game, which is also what others report. The tooltip text is just a text string and thus meaningless. And outdated.
As I pointed out above, the numbers I am getting on blizzard crits seem out of place. For now I put back the (appropriate) multiplier, with in mind to recheck them once I get the time. I removed the comment about living bomb explosion range.
About rune of razorice. I had a few reports telling me that despise the tooltip the wws numbers were closer to 4% gain than 10 or 5%. So I worked off the assumption that was what it was, without having had tested it. I put back the numbers to 5%, with a recheck I'll do later on.
Originally Posted by Roywyn
CSD, I'd write it as "3% total crit damage increase" or something, to distinguish it from the wording on 4T7/BO/IS/SP.
Pyromaniac - did you check it on the PTR whether it actually adds 3% to all crit?
The wording claims it does, but I'd suspect it's just a mistake from sloppily remaking the tooltip for 3.0.8.
If you have 6% more fire crit than spell crit on your PTR char pane, it does add 3% crit.
If you have 9% more fire crit than spell crit, it adds only 3% fire crit and the tooltip is badly rewritten, which Kavan suspects too.
I haven't tested since I'm on vacation for 2 weeks and the computer I have here is...rather lacking. I am merely working off the talent description. Fortunately that should be rather easy to test on ptr with some wws parses. For now I left it at 3% to all spells.
edit: found my error with blizzard. I was still working off the wrong assumption blizzard ticked every 2 seconds in the formula, giving much inflated numbers. Fixed.
Last edited by manly : 12/27/08 at 5:13 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I didn't go through your math but... I'm glaring at the haste number you are getting. No where have I seen haste be anywhere close to SP at attainable gear levels right now, and likewise I've never seen anything indicated haste was a very significant upgrade over crit either.
When you say 1 sp adds 1.24 dmg to a ffb hit and 2.64 dmg to a crit, did you account for the 40% dmg from ignite? I believe FFB crits do 225% impact dmg. 1.24*225%=2.79 which is slightly above what you are adding for a crit and that's not including ignite at all, which would be an additional 40% of that 2.79 number --> 3.906.
I think this would probably fix both the sp and crit values you are coming up with.
I completely failed, forgetting to count in the ignite ticks in favor of crit. D'oh! Recalculating with ignite gave me crit and spell power about equal, and haste being 1.08x the value of them. I can believe that, since i'm pretty haste starved atm, i could probably use a little more.
But besides this error i made, can anyone confirm that the method i used and how i apporached it might actually work so i can repeat this in the future as my stats change?
If you're just doing the equivalence for Frostfire Bolt (and not a typical mixed rotation of FFB with Pyroblast from Hot Streak procs and/or Living Bomb woven in), the calculations are extremely straightforward.
m is the average base damage of Frostfire Bolt: (722+838)/2 = 780
r is the spell power coefficient, which with Empowered Fire is 3/3.5+.15 = 1.0071
d is your spell power.
b is the critical strike bonus, which is 3.15 without Chaotic Skyflare. I don't recall off the top of my head the CSD formula, but it is known and that should be fairly easy to find.
c is your crit chance with FFB.
z is the bonus to your casting speed from gear-based haste.
h is your hit chance.
With all this information, you can easily calculate the equivalences listed above, which give the relative values of each stat with spell power set equal to 1.0 (as a baseline).
Cheers, i'll be coming back to this for a long time to come i'm sure.
If you're just doing the equivalence for Frostfire Bolt (and not a typical mixed rotation of FFB with Pyroblast from Hot Streak procs and/or Living Bomb woven in), the calculations are extremely straightforward.
m is the average base damage of Frostfire Bolt: (722+838)/2 = 780
r is the spell power coefficient, which with Empowered Fire is 3/3.5+.15 = 1.0071
d is your spell power.
b is the critical strike bonus, which is 3.15 without Chaotic Skyflare. I don't recall off the top of my head the CSD formula, but it is known and that should be fairly easy to find.
c is your crit chance with FFB.
z is the bonus to your casting speed from gear-based haste.
h is your hit chance.
With all this information, you can easily calculate the equivalences listed above, which give the relative values of each stat with spell power set equal to 1.0 (as a baseline).
I guess I should put this in the first post.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Actually you shouldn't, because I think everything's flipped over the wrong way.
It becomes obvious when I go back to first principles...
Where c_r is raw crit rating (hence the 4591 below). This leads us to...
Which, when we use delta d = 1, is what gets us the "proper" formula. The same goes for the other stats. All these formulas are upside down. Which isn't wholly bad, because that tells you the value of 1 crit rating in terms of spell power.
In short, the first thing I posted might read ".5 spell power = 1 crit rating," whereas this would read "1 spell power = 2 crit rating." A matter of what you choose to set to 1. The problem was that, chained together as I wrote it, it didn't make any sense.
So what I said is better (and more correctly) written like this:
On inspection this immediately makes more sense: as spell power goes up, 1 spell power is worth less of each of these ratings.
So, today's lesson is, "Always check your work" I guess.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Ok! Need help here from someone with a grip on maths - Muphrid you seem to be the man.
I was wondering if in a raiding situation, I am not the poor boy placing Scorch, if LB and Hot Streak might actually be a dps LOSS with a certain amount of gear, specially haste?
Of course if someone can come up with the math to back this up (or ram it down) it would allow for an Icy veins/Cold snap template.
I believe you should use my spreadsheet and see for yourself the individual spell dps. Its glaringly obvious that not casting living bomb is dumb under most circumstances. Similar information is equally available from other source, rawr amongst other things will tell you the same thing.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Ok! Need help here from someone with a grip on maths - Muphrid you seem to be the man.
I was wondering if in a raiding situation, I am not the poor boy placing Scorch, if LB and Hot Streak might actually be a dps LOSS with a certain amount of gear, specially haste?
Of course if someone can come up with the math to back this up (or ram it down) it would allow for an Icy veins/Cold snap template.
You see Living Bomb and HS Pyro cap out when they reach the haste cap for instants (where they have a 1.0 GCD), but FFB still doesnt catch up. If you crank up the crit rate in the same comparison:
Then FFB starts catching up. But the amount of haste required for it is rather ridiculous. HS Pyro will never be overtaken by FFB with reasonable gear levels. Living Bomb is questionable, but if you're in super blow cooldown mode, the target may not have 12 seconds left to live, which greatly reduces the Living Bombs benefit.
To truly model the game, we first must research it. http://zaldinar.wordpress.com/
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.
I'm not sure how to say this, I find it odd that almost no Mage (via clicking names) is hit capped. I do think the Speed Potions are phenominal for the Frostfire spec. In my opinion I think that builds should go Crit after hit capped since you'll get more Hot Streak proc's, also since I don't have proof with me I won't post the numbers I saw in my Naxx group last night since I have no way of showing X dps I did for X bosses. I know 3.0.8 will make the old Deep fire spec or Deep fire with Focus Magic a competitive DPS spec but, Frostfire spec made me enjoy my Mage again and want to play him instead of half my guildies who switched to DK's or Ret Pally's. I think though with the right Crit rating and speed potions FFB spec can top the old Deep Fire spec or what ever "radical" Arcane spec is coming out.
Why don't Brothels offer First Time Buyer Incentives?
I would very much appreciate if someone could glance over this Patchwerk WWS for the character Sopressata and tell me if anything looks amiss. This is my wife's character, and she's extremely frustrated at the bottom of the barrel DPS she's doing.
I keep myself updated on this thread, have given her the standard rotation, and am using a correctly configured Rawr to recommend her gear choices. But she is still at the bottom of DPS in 5, 10, and 25 man raids.
Does it all just come down to her gear? I really didn't think it was that bad, but maybe in comparison to all those other raiders.
The only thing that looks amiss is the actual number of FFB's she casting, but I'm pretty sure she's spamming the key between each cast, so maybe that's just due to the fact that the other mages have nearly twice as much haste.
It's just gear. If you look at the mage comparison you can see she's casting the same amount of bolts as the other two mages but with lower average damage. LB isn't being neglected either. Armory shows her spellpower as 1566, whereas the other two have 1816 and 1700 (but he has much higher hit), as well as higher haste and both having 4T7 bonus. Simple as that, I think.
[edit] it's been a while since I read WWS actually, I think I'm wrong on that comparison page. There can't be 100 casts of FFB. Anyway, there is a big enough gear difference to account for this.
I disagree, it's not all gear, nor RNG. RNG treats each of the mages in this WWS pretty equally and the spell power difference is there but all in all she's casting way less than the other two mages. Her FFB hits are 26+30-->56 FFB's in all while the other two mages have 70 and 76 casts. In a 4 minute fight their haste difference shouldn't account to that much.
She is also 2 pyros down from the other two mages.
Is the mentioned spamming the problem? Is she getting her casts cancelled due to spamming?
The pyroblasts is accounted for by the fact that she had hot streak proc less. She crit less in a row, and as such, had less instant pyroblasts.
SHe used 1 less mana gem then she should, so she should making sure is using them for the Mana surge DPS buff when she doesnt need the mana.
There is an issue with her number of casts and the FFB dot tho.
The FFB dot is overwritten if your spam casting. If you do something else (scorch, living bomb refresh, pyro), it gets a chance to tick. She has it ticking even when she should be spam casting.
I think latency may be a factor in here as well. Taking a look at a chunk of time when I know she doesnt have icy veins up, she's averaging about 3.2 seconds between the time FFBs hit. By Comparison, Gray is much closer to 2.6 seconds, and that diffeence between his and hers is far too different to be accounted for by spell haste.
Thanks a lot for the responses. I will pass all this on - I guess it's good in a way to know that there's something she can do in the meantime while waiting for the gear to come along.
If the haste doesn't indeed account for that difference, then I'll make sure that gets fixed. I think part of that may be my fault as the UI I have set up on our system doesn't display GCD very clearly so she may be thinking there's more downtime than there should be between casts.
Also very interesting point regarding the FFB dots, I never even thought to check there. So I guess that further shows there's something else going on non-gear related.
My biggest hope is she can luck out on a few more gear pieces with hit before the patch since right now she'd have to lose a fair chunk of damage to get up to the 3.0.8 hit rating.
It is quite odd. Granted, she has less hastes/spell/crit than the competition, but the total number of casts is dramatically lower than what's expected from that. Her Presence seems fine, the total number of buffs seem fine... Total number of Scorches and of LB is not more or less than the others, even down to trinket procs the amount is the same.
Could it be she cancelled a few casts? or walked? I'm apprehensive about suggesting she's slow on the repeat-casting because her 99% presence says otherwise. In cases where presence is high and total number of casts is low, I'd suspect perhaps the player had to take a long time to locate a standing position to start the spam, where other players may have located very near the pre-engagement position, gaining perhaps 2-3 casts worth of time over the others.
It is quite odd. Granted, she has less hastes/spell/crit than the competition, but the total number of casts is dramatically lower than what's expected from that. Her Presence seems fine..
Could it be that ignite, LB and the FfB dot distort the presence? If so, the presence isn't a sure sign for proper chaincasting. I've seen this many many times; mages being a bit lazy in terms of casting and don't playing out their whole damage potential.
The issue of casting latency isn't discussed nearly as much as it should be in mage tips and tricks, because all of the good mages know it and account for it. But I constantly run across people who don't know about it, and it shows in their dps. Any time you run into a mage who seems to be underperforming on their gear, ask about how they time their casts.
When I see a parse like that, I would bet money that she is watching the casting bar, and not starting the next cast until the first cast is completed. It is an extremely easy way to leave 20% of your dps on the floor.
Is your wife using a Cast bar mod like Quartz to help her pre-cast her FFBs? I know that simply installing something like that helped get a guildie's dps up by about 10% by helping time the casts. Obviously stable high latencies will see a bigger difference than low or random, but it still might help pull her closer.
The issue of casting latency isn't discussed nearly as much as it should be in mage tips and tricks, because all of the good mages know it and account for it. But I constantly run across people who don't know about it, and it shows in their dps. Any time you run into a mage who seems to be underperforming on their gear, ask about how they time their casts.
When I see a parse like that, I would bet money that she is watching the casting bar, and not starting the next cast until the first cast is completed. It is an extremely easy way to leave 20% of your dps on the floor.
Ever since they changed to queuing spells server side doesn't that make cast timing a thing of the past? Should we all just be spamming the button just a bit before the end of the current cast to ensure a constant stream with no downtime?
There are mages that still wait for the cast bar to finish?
Like I said in the "simple questions" thread, it's almost always number of spells casted. Gear just often helps that factor, but the #1 reason for bad DPS is not enough spell casts. I've been trying to explain a lot of reasons for peoples' bad DPS so far, and pretty much always the #1 factor that caused the lower damage was the amount of spells casted. And in none of the cases could spell haste account for the difference - the difference is always way too big for spell haste to be the reason for the lower number of casts.
Doing good DPS requires very aggressive play. Before gear, before spec, the #1 thing a DPSer needs to know is how to be as aggressive as possible with the casts and not waste a single second on anything that isn't absolutely required. It just happens that the people that don't DPS aggressively enough also have worse gear which makes them tend to blame their gear, when the gear is far from the main reason for their low DPS.
As had always been common knowledge: skill>gear>spec.
On a side note, this is why I think a video is many times more effective than a WWS report. Too bad it's not very practical for most people. But you can at least try watching some mage-perspective video (although would be even better if someone who kicks ass on damage would just make a video of himself). I bet everyone who have low DPS issues will have at least 1 "aha, I should've been doing *that*!" moment when watching such a video.
12/27/08, 4:07 PM
