Ever since they changed to queuing spells server side doesn't that make cast timing a thing of the past? Should we all just be spamming the button just a bit before the end of the current cast to ensure a constant stream with no downtime?
There are mages that still wait for the cast bar to finish?
There are, in fact, still mages who think they're doing the right thing by waiting for quartz to hit the latency area and then casting, rather than hitting their nuke even before they should.
I talked to one today (not in my guild obviously) who couldn't figure out why we had similar gear but I was doing so much more dps than he was.
He kept trying to offer me his armory link so I could tell him if he was doing something wrong, but I kept saying there's no point in looking at an armory, or even at his dps, that the mage detail area of wws was sufficient.
Is your wife using a Cast bar mod like Quartz to help her pre-cast her FFBs? I know that simply installing something like that helped get a guildie's dps up by about 10% by helping time the casts. Obviously stable high latencies will see a bigger difference than low or random, but it still might help pull her closer.
Yes, she does have Quartz installed. Personally, I've always spammed my damage button (though as a hunter, with our main spell being 1.5 seconds spamming is almost necessary). She doesn't spam her button because of wrist issues, but I did just get her a new mouse with a few extra buttons so maybe button FFB on that will help.
Now I have to admit I thought that ever since they changed how spell latency was calculated, you couldn't actually cast until the spell bar disappeared (at least which Quartz, which shows the latency in red of how long it took to send your spell cast request to the server). Is this incorrect? I've never really noticed as, like I said, I spam my spells.
Yes, she does have Quartz installed. Personally, I've always spammed my damage button (though as a hunter, with our main spell being 1.5 seconds spamming is almost necessary). She doesn't spam her button because of wrist issues, but I did just get her a new mouse with a few extra buttons so maybe button FFB on that will help.
Now I have to admit I thought that ever since they changed how spell latency was calculated, you couldn't actually cast until the spell bar disappeared (at least which Quartz, which shows the latency in red of how long it took to send your spell cast request to the server). Is this incorrect? I've never really noticed as, like I said, I spam my spells.
Sometimes I get some major latency during raids and lag out for 5 or 6 seconds at a time. The whole time I'm lagging I'm just spamming my frostfire bolt binding. When the lag is over, I can see that I was chain casting the entire time I was lagging. Spamming your buttons all the time is definitely worth it IMO. The only trouble you could run into is if you spam pyroblast a few too many times and end up starting a 5 second cast.
I have a question regarding combustion. It's my understanding that whether a spell will crit or not is calculated when it leaves your hands rather than when it actually hits the target. If this is true, do you potentially "lose" a combustion charge if you use combustion while a crit frostfire bolt is in the air? The bolt was going to crit whether you used combustion or not, but when the spell actually hits the target and crits, does it consume one of combustion's charges? Instead of the crit before combustion plus 3 from combustion, totaling 4 crits, you would just get 3 instead? If that's true I've definitely been using combustion at inopportune times.
I believe that it is possible to get the benefit of 4 charges by using the 3-cast/crit + fireblast (or whatever) technique and it should allow for the 4th charge to be used.
Yes, it definitely works, for instance if you crit twice in a row during combustion you gain Hot Streak, while you're casting the third FFB once the FFB is finished you click the instant Pyro and both spells benefit from the third combustion charge. This is due to the fact that the charge is used when the spell lands but the buff is granted on spell cast, but this 'issue' was discussed many times long ago (then it was a fireblast).
I'll try to explain my question better. I realize it's possible to get a 4th crit from combustion using an instant pyro or fire blast on the 3rd charge. What I'm trying to figure out is something different. If whether a spell will crit or not is calculated on cast rather than when the spell hits the target, it seems I'm losing damage using combustion when I do. I'll use the following example:
1) FFB cast - calculated as a crit when it leaves my hands
2) Use combustion then start casting a 2nd FFB while the 1st is in the air
3) The first FFB hits the target and since it was already calculated as a crit, it crits the target BUT uses one of the three crits given by combustion even though it was cast before combustion was
4) I then get 2 (or potentially 3) more crits from combustion as usual.
Is this true? If so, then it seems I'm losing damage because even if I didn't use combustion, the first FFB was going to crit no matter what; thus essentially "wasting" a combustion crit charge.
It doesn't matter when the calculation is done (crit/not crit), what matters is that the crit buff from combustion is gained when the spell leaves your hand and consumed when it lands and crits.
That is if you cast FFB, FFB leaves your hand and while in the air you use combustion if the FFB crits you lose one charge while the spell was a natural crit. So to your question, yes, you 'wasted' a charge but the spell was a natural crit.
EDIT: the counter is increased when the spell hits though, so I'm not sure if you're actually lossing anything, and in most cases unavoidable unless you do it after refreshing LB, scorch is not such a good idea since I've had cases when I finished refreshing scorch and chain casted combustion+ffb only to see the combustion counter increase when scorch hits/crits and I have a sneaking suspicion a charge is used when scorch crits (not certain).
EDIT 2: just tested it on a dummy, started with scorch and chaincasted combustion+ffb, if the scorch crits it's counted as one charge although techinically I pressed the combustion+ffb macro after casting scorch, log also says that I gain combustion and only then scorch hits.
To recap, chaincasting scorch and then combustion+ffb is NOT a good idea, to be absolutely certain you don't loose anything from combustion you should use it after applying LB. Though speaking in probability, since you don't know if you're going to get a crit when chaincasting ffb I'm not sure you can count the FFB that critted and didn't get the combustion buff (10% crit) a loss.
There are, in fact, still mages who think they're doing the right thing by waiting for quartz to hit the latency area and then casting, rather than hitting their nuke even before they should.
I talked to one today (not in my guild obviously) who couldn't figure out why we had similar gear but I was doing so much more dps than he was.
He kept trying to offer me his armory link so I could tell him if he was doing something wrong, but I kept saying there's no point in looking at an armory, or even at his dps, that the mage detail area of wws was sufficient.
When I wait a few seconds then begin to mash, my client often locks up with the message "Another Action is in Progress" and appears to prevent my cast from starting as soon as possible. Is this avoidable? Is the lock-out just my mind playing tricks on me? Is it really better to court carpal tunnel syndrome than using a Quartz cast bar (for low-to-moderate latency)?
About losing Combustion charges: I prefer to wait on a LB or Scorch refresh before hitting the IWIN button. No FFB in flight!
Since the new change where Thunder Clap and such snares count for the Torment debuff, I decided to play with a friend's mage in Rawr and set up the fireball torment build to see how it would compete with the FFB build.
I was surprised by the results. It seems that the theoretical dps of 3193 with the FFB build/FFB glyph, is increased to a theoretical 3938 with this fireball build and a fireball glyph.... This is without changing the mage's gear at all. Spell Impact gives your fireball an additional 6% damage, then you get another 12% more damage from torment when a snare is up, and on boss fights, TC or equivalent is essentially always up. It's been a while since I've seen discussion about a torment fireball build, and the fireball increase from Spell Impact always seems to be overlooked. What am I missing here that doesn't make this a very viable spec as opposed to FFB?
Hype, the big drawback I saw and still see to the fireball build over the FFB build is the +hit from talents issue, now FFB is hands down the winner with the EP double dipping an even after the next patch will still be preferred for me with just the 3% gain from EP.
3% may not seem like much but it leaves a lot of room for different gearing and gemming which to me is the difference although I may be wrong.
Even with the ghastly nerf to ghost hit [fixing a bug is not a nerf, dammit], Frostfirebolt builds will remain signficantly more efficient than Fire [even with Clearcasting], and since Fire will now be going TTW instead of dipping frost must gear for the hit. Generally speaking, gearing for hit is not an issue, it's the benefit you would gain from filling in with haste or crit if free to. The change is essentially 'both specs lose 3% hit', putting them on roughly the same ground they were compared to each other in that arena before. I've actually been testing a Fire build for raid DPS recently [I miss Ice Barrier SO much], and coming off of using Frostbolt and FFB, the difference in mana usage is notable. The hypothetical math supports this, and while fine for current fights with increasing length [and potential mana-survival use] of said fights, Fire will be very mana hungry. I suspect that FFB will remain a constant among raiding builds because of its ability to self-sustain through longer fights at very high DPS and avoid drinking between consecutive trash pulls, and will rely heavily on gear [not the least of which will be viability of the +mana gem return over higher tier gear or the necessity of losing said bonus, and whatever the new set bonus(es) will be].
I tested Fireball/LB template on the "punchingball" and compared in the same condition (no gems, no pot's) with my actual stuff (4pT7-25 - 1750 sp - 37% crit - 11% haste self buff). Template fire + arcanes splash, the loss of 3% hit is pretty bad to compensate regarding actual best stuff available, also FB is more mana consuming than FFB even with clear cast (my personnal empiric data show that with the same mana pool you deal like ~30-35% less damage with FB). Btw the dps was a bit below or equal compared to FFB. I prefer save my potion slot for an haste potion and not be forced to use an evocation in fight. I hope this spec will be valuable in the next tier with more stuff and a better mana pool, cuz it's pure fire is definitly not dead yet.
Concerning the use of LB during hasted burst phase (Bloodlust/Icy veins) I would tend to stop refresh LB even if theorically it improve anytime the DPS, for a practical reason, atm on crowded server due to early wotlk high PVE activity we have some extra latency. I observed that including LB during these kind of phase is a DPS loss by filling cycle with some GCD based spell. Beside on some bosses like thaddius who have actually some spike due to boss configuration (players debuff intercation), I would stop refresh LB even outside hasted burst phase except on polarity change, if I feel that lags are too high to be efficient.
Last edited by Vincemcdoom : 12/31/08 at 12:39 AM.
But possibly fireball spec, which can attain 30% mana regen from pyromaniac (in 3.0.8), mage armor (+30% normal, 50% with glyph), and 2 points in arcane meditation (20%), attaining 100% in combat regen. Also, considering blizzard following the pattern of putting spirit on mage tiers,which might contribute to the mana viability of fire specs in raid environments (in heroics frostfire will reign, with better AoE abilities and + mana efficiency), I believe that those mana issues were the reason to change pyromaniac, and at the same time, lower the cries of the mage community about the uselessness of spirit.
On an added note, and to point out for another thread in these forums, being a situational source of regen and lessening one of the concerns with taking mages for end game raiding, low survivability (without speccing into frost). I believe all those factors make FB builds much more viable.
Now, if someone would enlighten me with some numbers a mage's spirit could reach in 25man gear/T7, with raid buffs/food etc, we could try to estimate the mana efficiency of both specs, and their scalability, as it has obvious influence on dps (using evocation/mana pot instead of haste, mage armor vs molten armor, etc)
We're really not all that fragile anymore. I'm over 20k health raid buffed, sometimes as much as 24k. Blink, block, wards, shields and slowfall are more tools than most have to prevent their own deaths, other than tanks. I never die anymore unless a tank does. And from that, I view absorption as a resist fight DPS talent more than a resist fight defensive talent. It's one less piece of resist gear needed (allowing regular gear to be worn instead), and slightly to substantially more mana, depending on the rate of incoming damage to be resisted.
I sit at around 400 spirit raid buffed. 263 + 51 imp MotW + 60 DS (not IDS; alternately felpup 48) + 37 kings = 411. This is with one piece of spirit gear (T7 helm). Those still using two pieces should have around 450-480.
Edder: You are wrong on certain accounts. The change to Pyromaniac has been demonstrated to be roughly equal to the relative nert to the mana gained by mages from JotW. We don't treat it as "additional benefit" because it isn't.
I'd think again about your suggestion of Mage Armor, as well as the Mage Armor Glyph. Even considering dropping Molten Armor puts FFB ahead of FB, let alone Glyphing it (thereby preventing you using Molten to it's full potential if the opportunity arises)
Discussions of mage survivability are not very relevant any more. It's been a while since Spellfire and Belt of Blasting was in fashion.
Alternating ranks of Flamestrike then Blizzard is your best AoE DPS, yes. It's an order, not a priority. For targets, if there's 4+ targets I'll always AoE; if there's only 3, depends on how long they'll live. Under 3, AoE's a waste of mana.
As for Loatheb, Scorch should be kept up, it's not just a personal benefit for you. Most other casters don't get the amount of crit from glyphs/talents that mages do, and even with Fungal Creep active Imp Scorch is still beneficial for them. For rotations, I do generally drop LB from my normal rotation while Creep is up, although I will use it as filler when moving for new Spores and such.
I added a data points section on the first post. Basically I just pulled out a few numbers from the spreadsheet.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
With the current bug on Spore loser(Fix please!), there is really no reason why you shouldn't have living bomb ticking.
If you want to be greedy and not give your other raid casters that 10% crit, don't worry about scorch, but in the best cases, you help your raid, your raid helps you... (sigh..... I hate decursing because our healing druids and shamans don't... and interupts... not like its on a rogue/warr GCD or anything... )
Thunderclap: This ability now counts as a ranged attack, granting it double damage on critical strikes instead of 150% and ranged miss chance, and still cannot be dodged or parried.
If you dont scorch and cast living bomb on loatheb when not moving youre pretty much doing everything wrong.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Yes, ofc on any other fight I'd keep living bomb and scorch up at all times.
But I'm sure there's an argument as to wether an uninterupted chain of FFB's that crit 100% of the time, thus procing instant pyros (which also crit), would give more dps than the dps from the low dmg of a LB crit (when compared to a crit FFB) not to mention the gcd after the LB.
FWIW, I'm only saying this because of the insanely huge crit modifiers FFB has, making it such a huge source of dps on crits, as opposed to the not so hot LB crits and their gcd.
Well, the main idea for living bomb is that it's ticking for those 12 seconds, plus the explosion, netting you free dps during all your casts.
Like manly said, "If you dont scorch and cast living bomb on loatheb when not moving youre pretty much doing everything wrong."
Thunderclap: This ability now counts as a ranged attack, granting it double damage on critical strikes instead of 150% and ranged miss chance, and still cannot be dodged or parried.
This is very simple to check, open rawr, edit some scrub item and change it's crit to something absurd, 3000 would do, this gives you 100% crit rate.
With my gear using LB is around 4% dps increase under normal conditions, on Loatheb it's around 0.15% increase to use LB. But LB is instant cast so suffers more from latency, if you're chain casting on Loatheb and have the buff you shouldn't worry about LB. Sure if you need to move then throw it, but otherwise don't bother.
As to scorch even if without scorch your crit rate was 95% you should maintain it even if you were the only caster, it's that good.
EDIT: For reference 0.15% is around 7211dps vs 7221dps.
Edder: You are wrong on certain accounts. The change to Pyromaniac has been demonstrated to be roughly equal to the relative nert to the mana gained by mages from JotW. We don't treat it as "additional benefit" because it isn't.
12/30/08, 12:42 AM
