The Frostfire Bolt thread (updated 3.2.2) - Page 3

Sojeph · 11/26/08, 2:19 PM

what happened to the 10/50/10(+1) spec for FFB

Debuff · 11/26/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by M0d1

I thought it was 21% crit raid (de)buffs?

10% Imp scorch
5% boomkin aura
3% Totem
3% Paladin judgement
21% crit

Correct me if i am wrong. (I am not to sure about the paladin judgement and have only seen it while reading through the forums)

Even so it would only be around ~58%.

The totem and the ret paladin judgment don't stack.

◊ manly · 11/26/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sojeph

what happened to the 10/50/10(+1) spec for FFB

Why would anyone spec that? You're missing 6% damage from frost talents. This is why you can't go arcane. And at that point its extremely cheap to get 10% mana regen from a few point investment in frost vs 10 more in arcane.

Maybe you confused the spec with 50/10/10(+1), which died the day burnout was made equivalent to spell power.

Chira · 11/26/08, 2:44 PM

On the topic of AoE, I have yet to Flamestrike at all. According to Rawr, it says that Blizzard beats out Flamestrike by about 4%. Despite the small difference, the increased radius on Blizzard seems like it would easily make it the better choice for AoE.

Second, gemming. Considering the fact that haste and crit (again, according to Rawr) are very close in terms of dps-per-point, would it be worth it gemming haste no matter what for other reasons? I'm mainly thinking about reducing the chance you have to lose your FFB cast when you are forced to move or other similar reasons.

Sojeph · 11/26/08, 2:47 PM

possibly idk i remember a spec where u could choose either FM or LB w/ no icy veins idk
Also if a trinket pops while the LB dot is on should u refresh it to get the more dmg or does it auto apply, same w/ explosion of LB

◊ manly · 11/26/08, 3:11 PM

Definately need to add double flamestrike as part of aoe rotations. Personally I hate flamestrikes limitations, but if it can be good, then good.

added 'double flamestrike ranks for ranged aoe?' point of contention.

mkultra55 · 11/26/08, 3:43 PM

Thanx, Manly for all the research and info. FFB has intrigued me since it was announced.

I was slightly disturbed by your latest WWS that had a DK on top. How do you feel Mages will scale with gear as we progress compared to DK's?

For some reason it really bugs me that someone can basically "buy" a level 55 toon and once they hit 80 they are the King of the Mountain. I know DK's are in the honeymoon phase..it's just bothersome.

◊ manly · 11/26/08, 4:05 PM

I'm far more bothered as to why it isn't that way for all classes. Do I really need to start at level 1 for all my alts after I've maxed out one player already? Its just tedious and pointless.

As far as scaling goes, I think its looking solid. I expect to lose vs DK on anything aoe related, but firespec was never good at trash or aoe. I expect to lose vs warlocks if they're really good and top notch, but for the most part I haven't seen consistent results across multiple warlocks. The possibility is there, the actual results arent. Hunters do retarded dps as always, nothing new there. Deep wounds behaving exactly like rolling ignites / scorpid does give retarded numbers, but I expect that to get fixed, just like every similar mechanic. Outside of that, ffb has solid crit multiplier (330% to keep it simple) and solid crit rates. It suffers higher ramp-up time than before (fireball spec) because the spec really relies on raid buffs to work. It suffers anything aoe because the options kind of all suck. I do 'decent' dps with just blizzard, to the point where aggro pulls aren't rare, but yet I see to be the only class having this problem despise the fact I am fairly low on aoe dps. It doesn't makes much sense as far as I'm concerned. But its ok I never expected good aoe dps from deep fire regardless. The spec has got its perks, and has solid scaling on many things. I somewhat expect them to have to do a full rebalance at some point, because the base crit is simply really high in addition to have a high crit multiplier. The better the gear, the more we get retarded crits, the more we get hot streak procs. It all goes hand in hand. I think it will go out of hand before this expansion is over. But at the same time warlocks and hunters have the potential for even more ridiculous numbers, so I guess I'll wait and see.

Overall I don't think we have much to complain about. However, many things need fixes. Removing deep wounds rolling behavior should be #1 priority. TTW and fiery payback should be totally scrapped conceptually. Deep frost aoe dps makes no sense whatsoever (given the spec). Deep frost pve rotations are nonexistent/laughable at best. Arcane dps is off; mostly because arcane barrage dps is off (not that it is easy to fix without breaking balance). Mana is still largely a non-issue and needs a major do-over. Spirit is still a absolute-zero benefit to fire/frost specs. Int is better than spirit in every single way thanks to retarded replenishment mechanics. Maybe if at least int didn't gave any crit, but spirit did, you would have some sort of incentive to get some spirit. Right now you're doubly rewarded by int, by extra crit and extra mana (both total and regen), whereas you're not getting anything out of spirit -- you just lose dps.

If you can ignore all of the above problems, then I think we're perfectly fine.

gustave777 · 11/26/08, 5:40 PM

First of all Hooray Blizz for giving us something new to play with!!!

I have Many words to say, so Ill start with

My Assumptions:

Combustion is not calculated in, because it has some hairy mechanics
MF is not included in the calculations as well
Assume infinite mana, with no buffs or raid members (for all the numbers below)
Haste max takes Frostfire to 1sec ... sorry i havent been able to get the 1900 haste to test this
There is no Ignite munging ... ignite successfully deals all damage it should
Every time 2 consecutive FF crits occur Hot Streak procs, the implications are subtle, but this is not always the case in practice
What's Frost? What's Arcane? ... OH ... right its how we own people in PvP
For reference my toon is Hoogita on Auchindoun ... (yes i know ... gear is poop)

My conclusions:

Frostfire build > Fireball build
Stack Priority (very dependent on current gear ... shown are the numbers on my poop geared mage)
- Spell power - increase of 0.55 dps per point
- Spell hit - increase of 0.47 dps per point
- Spell crit - increase of 0.39 dps per point
- Spell haste - increase of 0.36 dps per point
The space is very complex (meaning the dps curve in 3-dim space, assuming hit capped) but at some point it becomes more beneficial to stack crit and haste. For example at 20% crit and 2500 dmg it is more beneficial to stack crit and haste than it is to stack spell power.
Hit is not always the most beneficial stat to stack, but as you reach 1450 spell power it does. (but again this is a very complex now we are considering the dps curve in 4-dim space)

I would appreciate specific comments on:
If and why any of the multipliers are wrong ... im already prepped for the incoming flame .. and probable ban from this message board

The Multipliers:

Crit Chance before +crit from gear = 0.014
- 9% from Pyromaniac and Critical Mass
- 5% from intellect ... yeah im just trying to simplify my life by not introducing yet another variable
Hit percent = 0.83 + 0.03 + hit*0.00038 (assuming you have EP)
45.8 crit per 1% chance to crit
32.85 haste per 1% haste
- i have seen a bunch of other numbers ... but basically look at my char on wowarmory and did the division and got these number
Frostfire crit multiplier = 2.25 * 1.4
- I have seriously seen 50 billion versions of this number ... i (like everyone else) think im right ... here's how i got it
- Base - 50%
- Ice Shards - 100% increase
- Burnout - 50% increase
- Multiplier = base (1 + IceShards + Burnout)
- Multiplier = 0.5 (1 + 1 + 0.5)
- Multiplier = 2.25
- Crit Value = Hit Value * Multiplier
- From a quick test ... 30 FF hits 2558 avg .... 6 FF crits 5712 avg
- Giving a multiplyer of 2.23 ... close enough for such a small sample
- 1.4 for the ignite Dot
Frostfire power = 1.19 * (780 + 1.0071 * power)
- 1.19 = 1 + 0.1 (FirePwr) + 0.03 (PlayFire) + 0.06 (PiercIce)
- 780 = avg FF damage
- 1.0071 = 0.8571 (BaseCoeff) + 0.15 (EmpFire)
Fireball crit multi = 1.75 * 1.4
- Base - 50%
- Burnout - 50% increase
- Multiplier = base (1 + Burnout)
- Multiplier = 0.5 (1 + 0.5) = 1.75
- 1.4 for the ignite Dot
Fireball power = 1.13 * (1010 + 1.15 * power)
- 1.13 = 1 + 0.1 (FirePwr) + 0.03 (PlayFire)
- 1010 = avg Fireball damage
- 1.15 = 1 (BaseCoeff) + 0.15 (EmpFire)
Pyroblast crit multi = 1.75 * 1.4 ... same as fireball
Pyroblast power = 1.13 * (1350 + 1.3 * power)
- 1.13 = 1 + 0.1 (FirePwr) + 0.03 (PlayFire)
- 1350 = avg Pyro damage
- 1.3 = 1.15 (BaseCoeff) + 0.15 (EmpFire)
Pryoblast Crit % = crit + 0.06 (from WorldInFlames)

The Equation:
Ok ... now that we have the foundation set we can start calculating the dps, cause afterall that is all we care about. In order to work in the Hot Streak we have to consider all possibilities of 2 consecutive casts, i will call them dps states. These states are HitHit, HitCrit, CritHit, CritCrit. When a CritCrit occurs a Pyro would follow (although in practice you start casting the next FF or FB before sending the instant pyro). The resultant dps is the sum of the chance to be in each state times that states dps. Which is:

The casting time for states 1, 2 and 3 are: 6*(1-HastePerct) .... 2 3 second casts times whatever reduction you get from haste. For state 4 it is 7.5*(1-HastePerct) ... 2 3 second casts plus one GCD for the pyro times whatever reduction you get from haste.

The Numbers:
Ok ... now to the fun part ... running the code below with my terribly geared mage, we get the numbers below, beating up a boss level in IF I got 1197dps, pretty darn close.

Frostfire yields:

1145 dps
1 Power = 0.55 dps
1 Hit = 0.47 dps
1 Crit = 0.39 dps
1 Haste = 0.36 dps

Fire yields:

1180 dps
1 Power = 0.54 dps
1 Hit = 0.48 dps
1 Haste = 0.37 dps
1 Crit = 0.31 dps

So that means you give up 35 dps for huge increase in mana efficiency ... I like it. Furthermore at about 29% crit Frostfire takes over Fire. An example (using crit = 690, hit = 369):
Frostfire yields:
1320 dps
Fire yields:
1319 dps

The matlab code:
I wrote this in matlab, because ... well ... it was open and im lazy ....
dps.m:

function value = dps(power, crit, haste, hit)

base_crit = 0.09 + 0.05; % talent and crit from int
crit_perct = base_crit + crit / 4580;
haste_base = 0.0278; %average haste from IV
haste_perct = haste / 3285;
hit_perct = 0.83 + 0.03 + hit*0.00038;

haste_cap = 2/3; %min cast time is 1 sec
if (haste > haste_cap)
        haste = haste_cap;
end
crit_cap = 1; %cant crit more than everytime
if (crit_perct > crit_cap)
        crit_perct = crit_cap;
end
hit_cap = 1;
if (hit_perct > hit_cap)
        hit_perct = hit_cap;
end

ff_crit_multi = 2.25 * 1.4;
ff_power_multi = 1.0071;
ff_dmg_multi = 1.19;
ff_base = 780;
ff_spell_power = ff_dmg_multi * (ff_base + ff_power_multi * power);

fire_crit_multi = 1.75 * 1.4;
fire_power_multi = 1.15;
fire_dmg_multi = 1.13;
fire_base = 1010;
fire_spell_power = fire_dmg_multi * (fire_base + fire_power_multi * power);

pyro_crit_multi = 1.75 * 1.43;
pyro_power_multi = 1.3;
pyro_dmg_multi = 1.13;
pyro_base = 1350;
pyro_spell_power = pyro_dmg_multi * (pyro_base + pyro_power_multi * power);
pyro_crit_perct = crit_perct + 0.06;

%---- ff_dps = HitHit + HitCrit + CritHit + (CritCrit)(ffdps + pyrodps)
ff_dps = ...
        (((1 - crit_perct)^2 * (2 * ff_spell_power) + ...
        2*(1 - crit_perct)*(crit_perct) * (ff_spell_power + ...
                                        ff_crit_multi * ff_spell_power)) ...
                / (6*(1-haste_perct))) + ...
        (crit_perct)^2 * ((2 * ff_crit_multi * ff_spell_power) + ...
                        ((1-pyro_crit_perct)*(pyro_spell_power) + ...
                        pyro_crit_perct*(pyro_crit_multi * pyro_spell_power))) ...
                / (7.5*(1-haste_perct));
ff_dps = ff_dps * hit_perct;

fire_dps = ...
        (((1 - crit_perct)^2 * (2 * fire_spell_power) + ...
        2*(1 - crit_perct)*(crit_perct) * (fire_spell_power + ...
                                        fire_crit_multi * fire_spell_power)) ...
                / (6*(1-haste_perct))) + ...
        (crit_perct)^2 * ((2 * fire_crit_multi * fire_spell_power) + ...
                        ((1-pyro_crit_perct)*(pyro_spell_power) + ...
                        pyro_crit_perct*(pyro_crit_multi * pyro_spell_power))) ...
                / (7.5*(1-haste_perct));
fire_dps = fire_dps * hit_perct;


value = [ff_dps, fire_dps];

test.m

power = 1300;
% crit = 690; % crit = 29%
crit = 254; % crit = 20%
haste = 129;
% hit = 369; % Hit cap
hit = 188;

dps_val = dps(power, crit, haste, hit)

dmg_inc = dps(power+1, crit, haste, hit) - dps_val
crit_inc = dps(power, crit+1, haste, hit) - dps_val
haste_inc = dps(power, crit, haste+1, hit) - dps_val
hit_inc = dps(power, crit, haste, hit+1) - dps_val

Enthorn · 11/26/08, 5:49 PM

We're still fairly early into the expansion, and Blizzard is releasing details on class changes for every class but mage, so it's hard to tell what they're actually going to be addressing with our class come the next major patch. Even in the next few minor patches, which they've hinted at, there has been nothing mentioned in regards to Mages, save for the few comments GC made in regards to Arcane rotations.

If the developers spent nearly as much time communicating with the mage community as they do with other classes, I think mages would be a bit more satisfied. Now, I don't want to be biased, because I fully understand that other classes have in fact received far more changes in their play style. Namely, tanks and healers have received immense focus. That is to be expected. I wouldn't have it any other way.

But too true is that that Shamans have raised concerns with their DPS and AoE (which are both, supposedly, non-existent, so perhaps they do have valid points to raise), and Rogues have received attention, as Hunters have. But the few times mages have received questions, it's started with, "What are your concerns with the mage class?" followed by "Thanks" after a few pages of replies.

It alarms me though that Frostfire bolt has been implemented but nothing has been truly discussed about it. The same is true with Mirror Image, save for "It's overpowered in PvP, we've nerfed the damage," and the many, many bug fixes that happened. Oddly enough, the bug fixes usually revolved around features of the spell, and instead of fixing the features, they simply removed them.

I've tried raising my own concerns on the Damage Dealing forums (because devs have stated clearly that they don't pay attention to class forums, their own words), but alas, some classes do not receive replies. I am more than content with the DPS output of mages, and I don't believe there is a problem with other classes (and utility coming into play, lack there of, namely rogues and hunters) excelling at DPS above mages. My concerns are instead in the deliverance of said DPS. Namely, Wrath has changed the way DPS classes are constructed, raid buffs are handled, and the way specs are taken into account. But looking at the numbers Frostfire is pulling in comparison to every other Mage spec... it worries me.

I'll save everyone here my own list of concerns (excluding the two I've already made mention of), since I'm not entirely certain this is the appropriate thread for this anyway -- but Manly's post got me thinking about things again, and the current state of mages.

Pasture · 11/26/08, 7:04 PM

^

I don't understand why people are worried about Frostfire being the top raid spec. Mages have always had a top raid spec. At Sunwell level this was fire. If you want to do maximum damage you spec that spec. Now that top spec is frostfire. If you care more about damage than anything else you'll spec frostfire. If you care more about enjoying your spec you'll spec whichever spec you prefer. I'm still sticking with arcane at the moment.

Roywyn · 11/26/08, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Pasture

I don't understand why people are worried about Frostfire being the top raid spec. Mages have always had a top raid spec. At Sunwell level this was fire. If you want to do maximum damage you spec that spec. Now that top spec is frostfire. If you care more about damage than anything else you'll spec frostfire. If you care more about enjoying your spec you'll spec whichever spec you prefer. I'm still sticking with arcane at the moment.

Frostfire being the top spec isn't a huge problem.
It's quite alright even, because frost resistance/immunity doesn't hurt it and fire resistance doesn't hurt much.

What is a problem is Frostfire (and Deep Fire) are simply so far ahead.
Frost spec single target DPS should be a little behind, but not be absolute garbage with bad scaling.
Arcane is pretty lacking and it always need an off-spec filler nuke forced into 18 Fire for a rid debuff.

Also, Torment the Weak and Slow is pretty bad design, and we don't know how it's intended.

Frost is absolutely amazing for AoE DPS, even though the Fire tree is filled to the brim with AoE talents.
I don't think it's a problem, but I find it very amusing. Like prot used to top DPS in some builds.

At early Sunwell levels, you still saw a few mages hacking it with Arcane Blast spam and doing well.
And through the 3 tiers of raids before Sunwell, Arcane did shine and Frost was only slightly behind.

Nowadays, you only see 0/53/18 in WWS charts 2 weeks after the WotLK with people in half 70 gear.
And the scaling ensures that it's not going to change.
It's Destro-Sac all over, but starting its domination in blues and not after 2-3 raid tiers like in BC.

Rogues have two completely different specs and playstyle that are neck-to-neck.
Hunters have two strong trees, Warlocks are talking about all three trees and different styles.
We don't. That's what people are concerned with.

sirinsa · 11/26/08, 9:12 PM

If I want to lose 2 points between playing with fire, burnout and molten fury (or any other DPS talent), which one should I forgo?

Enthorn · 11/26/08, 10:11 PM

Sirinsa, I'm not sure what other talents you'd be going for (Fiery Payback? Cold Snap?) but I'd drop points from Playing With Fire.

jakejake · 11/27/08, 1:27 AM

Why is Fireblast not used in the 53/18 FFB spell rotation?

FrozenHell · 11/27/08, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by Legitimate

Regarding your opening 10 seconds: Assuming you open up with Living Bomb and scorches, I don't think your DPS will be too bursty to the point where you need to worry about threat. It's predictable enough to the point where even through pure crits, threat shouldn't be an issue until your first nuke goes out 7.5 seconds later.

The only thing is that in practice, a number of bosses require movement to run into them for the pull, so typically I pretty much always finding myself casting Living Bomb as I run in, as scorch obviously isn't an option until I've stopped moving. I also prefer putting a slightly extra window in front (even if its just 1 GCD) of when I could possibly get a hot streak proc from the 2 scorch casts should they both crit (or even from 1 cast if the counter was already up to 1). Pulling aggro on the initial pull is just about the worst time to do it, as it then chains onto other people pulling as well.

In regards to flamecap vs 2pcT7, I would say the latter would have to be better, purely for the extra mana to dps with unless you're swimming in a lot of excess mana, especially with flamecap putting a 3 minute cooldown onto your gems (instead of 2 minutes) still right? You can also stack the 2pcT7 proc (Mana Surge) with other On-Use trinkets as you previously could with SCB (trigger the on-use trinket first, then use a mana gem). The proc doesn't stack with SCB if anyone was curious, you get the 40% mana from 2pcT7 and the 25% from SCB so you do get the extra mana effect from both, but no double 225 spell power effect which isn't surprising.

Speaking for myself mana is cutting very close even with using gems all the time (with 2pcT7), 1 runic mana pot on most fights and evocation. We're typically taking 3 replenishment classes to most 25 mans (surv hunter, ret pally, spriest) at the moment, so be interested to hear about others if you are taking more or less and how they feel their mana is standing up with FFB spec without resorting to using Mage Armor?

cabrinha · 11/27/08, 3:11 AM

Hi,
I'am only lvl 76 actually but I'am very interested in the frostfire spec. I'am playing mage from the begining of the game and my first spec was Ice. With TBC I switched to Fire (2/48/11 the famous^^) and now I'am very happy to see that things seems to go back to Ice (my first loving spec).

I have 2 questions :
1 - Can you link a good 0/53/18 build here?
2 - Frostfire seems to be very dependant of crit rate. What is the good crit rate to reach to be performant with FF spec?

Thank you all ^^

gustave777 · 11/27/08, 3:25 AM

Originally Posted by cabrinha

1 - Can you link a good 0/53/18 build here?

look at my build ... it is 0/53/18 ... there are a number of variations you can do as perference
wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Auchindoun&n=Hoogita

Originally Posted by cabrinha

2 - Frostfire seems to be very dependant of crit rate. What is the good crit rate to reach to be performant with FF spec?

scroll up to my previous post, it answers this question in detail.

Sinthesys · 11/27/08, 5:14 AM

Originally Posted by jakejake

Why is Fireblast not used in the 53/18 FFB spell rotation?

It's an inefficient use of a global cooldown and mana, in return for the damage it gives.

It's good while moving, but that's about the only time you should ever be casting it.

Dustwhisper · 11/27/08, 6:19 AM

How are people handling combustion in regards to living-bomb? If my crit RNG favours me I can eat the charges before LB goes of and eats a charge but sometimes not. I don't particularly like having LB using a combustion-charge but I wonder what the DPS difference is between

a) Having LB up and possibly using a crit.
b) dropping LB until 3 crits have been made by FFB.

Pye · 11/27/08, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Spirit is still a absolute-zero benefit to fire/frost specs. Int is better than spirit in every single way thanks to retarded replenishment mechanics. Maybe if at least int didn't gave any crit, but spirit did, you would have some sort of incentive to get some spirit. Right now you're doubly rewarded by int, by extra crit and extra mana (both total and regen), whereas you're not getting anything out of spirit -- you just lose dps.

Would MP5 on an item benefit us more than spirit?

Jonny_Monroe · 11/27/08, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Pye

Would MP5 on an item benefit us more than spirit? As far as I know the only boots in 25-man naxx that don't have spirit have MP5 and quite a lot of crit.

It would benefit more than spirit but its still extremely poorly itemized. You would be far better off with more Int on the item (for mana returns, at least).

vellias · 11/27/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

It would benefit more than spirit but its still extremely poorly itemized. You would be far better off with more Int on the item (for mana returns, at least).

Agreed. Pretty much as your gear improves mana becomes less and less of an issue, I remember on our first naxx 25 clears (4 days into the expansion) most of the raid was using sunwell gear with old world enchants, gems, etc. Mana return was absolutely horrible, I had to gem every cooldown and use mana pots on every fight. And still bottom out on mana....we wiped several times on patchwerk because all of us were in mostly sunwell gear and healers bottomed out so quickly.

Now with gear improvements mana is easily sustainable without relying on mana pots or mage armor. For anyone with problems, i'd suggest not clinging to sunwell gear - in the end the higher stats of level 80 items will help much more with mana return due to the mechanics of replenishment.

◊ manly · 11/27/08, 2:01 PM

More like killing bosses in half the time helps a lot mana 'regen'.

Vand1 · 11/27/08, 3:04 PM

All this talk about ffb's dominance reminds me of the many times Manly and others said that, in the end, ffb would be in one of two positions: either underpowered and ignored or overpowered and dominant. It looks like Bliz chose the second option. I guess they did not want their new baby going totally unused except by non-min/maxing mages on immunity fights.