Except that pyro without hot streak is pretty much meaningless outside of mu'ru.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Thegoodman: Your example of AoE is debatable. While LB may be good for AoE encounters, IV is equally useful if not more. If something, given an AoE phase does not last more than 40sec, I'd suggest Cold Snap-IV would likely be superior to LB, though that'd depend on number of mobs, where higher amount of mobs would diminish the relative value of LB's DoT.
Magelove: I did not intend to patronize or demean you, I intended to indicate that this forum aims at self-motivation and research. You will note in the forum regulations "Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable." is asked, and I suggested you look it up. We're not a bunch of short-sighted players who never noticed that dropping a 51st talent for a 21st talent would miraculously give us 200dps.
Except that pyro without hot streak is pretty much meaningless outside of mu'ru.
That is, ofcourse, until we find another fun, instant blasting buff to steal.
Has the Living Bomb/Multiple target crit been confirmed yet?
"So if you start from 0 crits, and get crit,hit,crit,hit it won't proc, but crit,crit,hit,hit will proc"
Thunderclap: This ability now counts as a ranged attack, granting it double damage on critical strikes instead of 150% and ranged miss chance, and still cannot be dodged or parried.
Thegoodman: Your example of AoE is debatable. While LB may be good for AoE encounters, IV is equally useful if not more. If something, given an AoE phase does not last more than 40sec, I'd suggest Cold Snap-IV would likely be superior to LB, though that'd depend on number of mobs, where higher amount of mobs would diminish the relative value of LB's DoT.
I agree with what you are saying. In a pure AoE phase, Living Bomb doesn't necessarily outweigh IV+Flamestrike/Blizzard. However, I was more making reference to fights like Sartharion, Maexxna, and Anub'Rekhan where the AoE damage from Living Bomb is a side effect and not the main focus of the raid. This does more for the damage meters than it does for the success of the raid but in fights where the adds eventually must die, every bit of damage helps (Tenebron adds come to mind, mostly).
From a pure AoE point of view, Living Bomb isn't all that beneficial at this point since few AoE situation actually last 12 seconds.
Eh...I have quite a few trash pulls where aoe lasts more than 12 seconds. It does help if you drop it on the second focus target rather than the first. But not many where you would ever need a second LB.
Quick question on a spec where I am sure I am missing something big.
First, taking into account two important things
A 10% increase from 50% crit rating to 60% crit rating gives a 33% increase to HS procs.
There is a second mage using the same build as you to share focus magic.
Would Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
be a viable build post patch.
The way I see it, totw matches burnout excluding piercing ice so your crits will still be 6% lower but non critz will be 6% higher so lets say overall its only 4% loss in damage.
Is this -4% dmg along with no IV and -1% hit a huge loss compared to the 6% increase in crit from focus magic plus the increase in HS procs. (I currently have 53% crit rating raid buffed)
I don’t mention LB for the simple reason that I hate using it, it is clunky, awkward and I only do use it when HS procs to help stop ignite munching. If for some reason the above spec is close to the standard frostfire spec I would happily never miss LB.
A 10% increase from 50% crit rating to 60% crit rating gives a 33% increase to HS procs.
I don’t mention LB for the simple reason that I hate using it, it is clunky, awkward and I only do use it when HS procs to help stop ignite munching. If for some reason the above spec is close to the standard frostfire spec I would happily never miss LB.
This is gross statistical ignorance. You will not get one-in-three more HS procs from 10% crit increase.
Without much consideration, I'm extremely mistrustful of any FFB spec not including Burnout, as FFB's base damage is frankly pathetic. You're dropping 6% from Frost talents to it and adding 12% from TtW. Do you really think Burnout is only worth >6% to a FFB spec?
Not using LB is also patently idiotic. It's a significant percentage of your damage output, and frankly the paltry crit increase from FM will in no way come even close to it.
If you dislike LB, I suggest Arcane. Even with your supposed Ignite Munching it's been repeatedly proven that casting LB is a massive DPS boost. So much so, and so efficient, that it's preferable to drop Molten Armor than to drop LB.
Why not run the numbers through RAWR yourself, and if you discover something we haven't, post your findings.
I stand by what I said, a 10% increase in crit from 50% to 60% is a 33% increase in HS procs.
Put it more simply with probability,
you cast 120 times @ 50% crit you are looking at 15 hs procs.
you cast 120 times @ 60% crit you are looking at 20 hs procs.
(I am leaving out the chance of the 2nd cast effecting the third and the third effecting the 4th as at 50% crit its even, at 60% crit it pushes it higher and thats just messy)
Yes living bombs damage to a single target is high, but if you dont use LB its not like you stand there for a gcd doing nothing, (you are in fact halfway through a ff cast with 60% crit chance)
Burnout is indeed worth more then 6% dmg, it is in fact worth 12% which is something I have already said. Please re read and drop the attitude or else go back to the wow forums, troll there for a few hours, get it out of your system and then come back.
I stand by what I said, a 10% increase in crit from 50% to 60% is a 33% increase in HS procs.
Put it more simply with probability,
you cast 120 times @ 50% crit you are looking at 15 hs procs.
you cast 120 times @ 60% crit you are looking at 20 hs procs.
(I am leaving out the chance of the 2nd cast effecting the third and the third effecting the 4th as at 50% crit its even, at 60% crit it pushes it higher and thats just messy)
Yes living bombs damage to a single target is high, but if you dont use LB its not like you stand there for a gcd doing nothing, (you are in fact halfway through a ff cast with 60% crit chance)
Burnout is indeed worth more then 6% dmg, it is in fact worth 12% which is something I have already said. Please re read and drop the attitude or else go back to the wow forums, troll there for a few hours, get it out of your system and then come back.
I stand by what I said, a 10% increase in crit from 50% to 60% is a 33% increase in HS procs.
Put it more simply with probability,
you cast 120 times @ 50% crit you are looking at 15 hs procs.
you cast 120 times @ 60% crit you are looking at 20 hs procs.
(I am leaving out the chance of the 2nd cast effecting the third and the third effecting the 4th as at 50% crit its even, at 60% crit it pushes it higher and thats just messy)
Yes living bombs damage to a single target is high, but if you dont use LB its not like you stand there for a gcd doing nothing, (you are in fact halfway through a ff cast with 60% crit chance)
Burnout is indeed worth more then 6% dmg, it is in fact worth 12% which is something I have already said. Please re read and drop the attitude or else go back to the wow forums, troll there for a few hours, get it out of your system and then come back.
Post your math, because what you have stated does not accurately model your point. Also, trolling long time members like PintofBrew is not going to get you any help around here. You need to read the math currently in the threads that has been developed over a long period of time and either show some WWS's demonstrating what you suggest, or actually take the time to investigate on your own, rather then simply ask here for people to do the work for you.
Because you don't have an armory in your profile for me to inspect, I used my current gearset and inputted your "spec" into Rawr including all relevant raid buffs. I came out about 1000 DPS less then typical FFbolt spec, as I expected. This was also 1200 - 1400 DPS less then current fire or arcane specs in similar gear.
In your first post you said you thought you were missing something big. Living bomb is definitely something big. One of your first fundamental mistakes is refusing to use it.
If you're just doing the equivalence for Frostfire Bolt (and not a typical mixed rotation of FFB with Pyroblast from Hot Streak procs and/or Living Bomb woven in), the calculations are extremely straightforward.
m is the average base damage of Frostfire Bolt: (722+838)/2 = 780
r is the spell power coefficient
d is your spell power.
b is the critical strike bonus, which is 3.15 without Chaotic Skyflare. I don't recall off the top of my head the CSD formula, but it is known and that should be fairly easy to find.
c is your crit chance with FFB.
z is the bonus to your casting speed from gear-based haste.
h is your hit chance.
With all this information, you can easily calculate the equivalences listed above, which give the relative values of each stat with spell power set equal to 1.0 (as a baseline).
Sorry... this makes NO sence to me. I understand the math, but what is what? is it 1 crit/haste/hit = X spellpower? or what
The formula in the first post of the thread is correct; the formula from the post linked was incorrect (it was flipped over). Hence I've taken care to blank that post to make sure further errors don't result from that again.
The correct formula...
Would say something like this...
1 spell power = 2 crit rating = .9 hit rating = 1.1 haste rating
Purely made-up numbers simply to illustrate what it says. With this simple model, 1 spell power increases DPS the same as 2 crit rating does, as .9 hit rating does, as 1.1 haste rating does. This means that spell power > crit and haste but < hit.
If it's deemed more intuitive, you can choose to invert these expressions (flip them over), and get something like this:
1 crit rating = .5 spell power
1 hit rating = 1.11 spell power
1 haste rating = .91 spell power
This could be a clearer way of thinking about it. Again, I must emphasize, these are numbers given solely for the purpose of illustrating what the formula says. These numbers do not in any way, shape, or form reflect actual stat equivalences. The formula, however, does, albeit not as rigorously as any tool will give you, for the model is exceedingly simple (the only way you're going to be able to do it with "napkin math").
Not to discredit your numbers, but I think that an absolute increase would be more interesting to know than a relative increase. I think its more interesting from a players perspective to know that I go from 20% chance to proc HS to 22% rather than know its a 10% increase.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Not to discredit your numbers, but I think that an absolute increase would be more interesting to know than a relative increase. I think its more interesting from a players perspective to know that I go from 20% chance to proc HS to 22% rather than know its a 10% increase.
Manly, you are absolutely correct which is why I showed both the absolute and percent increase tables. However a previous poster was accused of "gross statistical ignorance" for showing large percent increases and I was merely defending the mathematics behind the numbers.
EDIT:
The previously posted table was for HS proc percent increase
Conclusion:
The assertion is not gross statistical ignorance.
Check the "dynamic cycles" thread (post #2) for accurate HS calculations. You're assuming every pair of consecutive crits will proc hot streak, which is simply not true. You completely neglect the fact that 3 crits in a row would not result in 2 hot streak procs, 4 crits in a row would not result in 3 hot streak procs etc. The actual portion of the casts that is pyro isn't crit^2, but rather crit^2/(1+crit+crit^2), which is lower since it doesn't count hot streaks that simply don't happen.
Of course # of hot streak procs and/or relative increase in hot streak procs is quite meaningless without actually figuring out how much DPS is gained by having that instant pyro and extra crit chance.
Peacemaker7: something to consider is what is meant when one says "the chance of HS proccing." Do we mean it averaged out over all casts? Or in pairs of FFBs?
The accepted formula for the former is (crit chance)^2 / (1 + crit chance), in which case one has 35% more HS procs (from 16.67% @ 50% to 22.5% @ 60%, a change of 5.83%).
That said, while I realize it's common to term HS in this manner, I prefer not to. A HS Pyroblast is 1 GCD spent not casting the next FFB. I much prefer to look at casting weights (i.e. what percentage of time is spent casting Pyro or FFB or LB and so on). It is from these weights that we get the rewritten expressions in the dynamic cycles thread, which have the same information merely presented in a different manner.
Of course # of hot streak procs and/or relative increase in hot streak procs is quite meaningless without actually figuring out how much DPS is gained by having that instant pyro and extra crit chance.
I will state that since HSPyro is our highest DPS spell by a large margin, an increase in HSPyro chance will always increase our DPS, and time not spent casting other spells is more than made up for when tossing instant Pyroblasts.
I will state that since HSPyro is our highest DPS spell by a large margin, an increase in HSPyro chance will always increase our DPS, and time not spent casting other spells is more than made up for when tossing instant Pyroblasts.
This is still far from enough information to properly calculate the increase in DPS from added crit, since 10% more HS procs or even 1 more HS proc per minute doesn't tell you anywhere near accurately how much your DPS is going to increase from that. There's rawr that does that for you, use it.
Thanks for the help with the Formula... One other thing. I dont quite see how frostfirebolt crits for 334% damage? I can see 50% burnout, 100% iceshards, 5% t7, 3% CSD, 40% ignite thats 198%... wheres the other 136% coming from???
Read the first post, the formula is given in full.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
01/19/09, 12:29 PM
