Your Damage Per Second for that GCD would be better suited throwing the Pyro than the LB ( Theory Craft-o-Matic FFB included for reference to baseline), the only time to be concerned about whether or not you should cast the Pyro is if the situation is going to lose you the scorch debuff or if not casting it immediately will cause you to potentially reproc it, hence the precasting example.

I suppose there could be some super elaborate thought of Pyros DoT uptime and the LB uptime etc, but really you're balancing between potentially losing a proc by getting 4 crits in a row and potentially avoiding some munching from the FFB->HS Pyro precast combination.

If I'm missing some other benefit to tossing the LB first I apologize, but I'm confused why you would want to other than for an ignite munch buffer. And if that's your point, then we agree!

But your damage per second for that GCD doesn't matter, because the next GCD is going to be spent doing whichever one you didn't do. So you're better off casting LB then Pyroblast since it means LB will go off 1 GCD faster.

Solisa and Shurik above confirm that you can do:
FFB (Crit) -> FFB (Crit) -> FFB (Crit, Hot Streak proc while casting, Living Bomb crits while Casting) -> Recast Living Bomb -> HS Pyro -> HS Pyro

The reason this is working is because the HS buff gets consumed when the pyro leaves your hands, however it only gets applied when ffb crits the target, so in terms of HS buff applying/wearing off, the pyro was "casted" after the second FFB. The reason this works even though you got a LB crit before the pyro, is because you can still get a "1" count towards your next HS buff when HS is active (however if you crit again before using it, it'll just refresh HS and set the counter to zero). Overall that's a pretty messed up mechanic, but it works fine if you use the priority system without canceling spells in all situations except the very rare and sort of avoidable (if you're not playing "on the edge" with your scorches) FFB crit -> FFB crit -> FFB+LB crit -> scorch needs refreshing so can't cast pyro.

One thing I still wonder, though, is how to actually figure out when would be the optimal time to scorch, but this one has obviously way too many variables to come up with a practically usable model.

If you can refresh Living Bomb before using your Hot Streak then it is beneficial for the reasons you noted - better Living Bomb uptime and prevention of Ignite munching. In cases of FFB crit x2 followed by LB crit with a third nuke midair, you can still pull it off if you're standing at max range, but it is really a judgement call. Under most other circumstances the hot streak can come after the LB/Scorch safely, and it is beneficial to hold off on it if you know it won't get overwritten.

So, what I'm reading in the last few posts contradicts the first post in this thread. That first post states that this is the correct priority for spell rotations:

HS Pyro -> LB -> Scorch -> FB/FFB

Yet ITIG above says to refresh LB first in order to increase uptime and avoid Ignite munching. It seems as if both priorities have merits in different situations. My question, therefore, is what guidelines should I use to decide how to prioritize my rotations?

I'm looking for something simple (a la the title of this thread). Frankly, my thought processes don't work quickly enough to perform elaborate analyses during a fight like Sarth+3; I want to be able to have a priority in my head so that a quick glance at my buff timer bars, coupled with the fight's circumstances, tell me which spell to cast next.

Can anyone help?

Let me take a stab at it, general rule and some situations where you may want to make an exception.

HS Pyro -> LB

If both are up for the next chaincast and you are casting a spell with travel time (frostfirebolt or fireball), you may want to do LB first in order to avoid ignite munching if both frostfirebolt and pyroblast crit, and also for 1.x seconds of LB uptime. If you are doing a no-travel-time spell like scorch, HS Pyro is always better unless you think the mob might not die in 11ish seconds but will die in 12ish seconds. The above is a pretty solid rule of thumb for most situations, but you won't kill yourself by reversing prority.

LB > XXX

If the mob is going to die in less than 12 seconds, LB is always lower priority although if you have to move anyway and aren't in range/arc of fireblast it's better than nothing. The payoff that makes it worth gcd is on the explosion.


HS Pyro > LB > scorch

Unless the scorch stack is about to drop and you're the only mage. This priority is still likely better for you, but not for the raid.


xxx> FB/FFB

Unless you have so much haste that you're casting near 1 second FB/FFB. This will normally only happen if you are doing something like the spellsteal of a ZA trash buff, but might be close to it if you have bloodlust+totem wrath+icy veins+hyperspeed accelleraors+trinket buff all running, plus a healthy dose of haste on your equipment. In general though this is mostly a theoretical consideration, only encountered in "gimmic" fights.

A lot of what makes the HS pyro so good compared to FB/FFB is the faster cast time. average dmg/hit is generally less.

And of course you never want to interrupt the casting of your slow nuke.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't worry at all about ignite munching. While it's sure to happen, you're also going to see benevolent ignite overlaps (in which you gain damage).

The only thing you risk with holding onto a Hot Streak buff is that if you have a Hot Streak buff and you've scored 3 critical strikes in a row, you run the risk of losing the Hot Streak buff to a critical Living Bomb if it explodes before your next critical frostfire or scorch.

While Pyroblast is higher DPCS, you're not losing DPS by holding onto a Hot Streak, provided you don't lose it. You are however losing DPS everytime you do a Pyroblast before a Living Bomb. That's not to say you should reapply Living bomb after every Frostfire Bolt when you have Hot Streak ready. On the contrary, that's a good way to end up losing Hot Streaks, as outlined above.

But consider the times when Scorch is about to run out, Living Bomb has just exploded, and your last Frostfire Bolt was a non-crit (or your last frostfire bolt was a crit and the one before it was a non-crit). Next assume that both Living Bomb and Scorch crit. I would reapply Living Bomb and cast Pyroblast after my next Frostfire Bolt, in that scenario. (Conversely, what you don't want is to have to reapply Scorch, have it crit, and have Living Bomb crit at the same time, all the while having Hot Streak still up from two previous frostfire bolt crits.)

In cases where that is a possbility just hit Pyro right after Scorch. There is a small window of time after Scorch crits but before it gives you the Hot Streak buff (probably tied to your latency?) where you can get a Scorch crit then two instant Pyros in a row.

T + 0.0 - Cast Living Bomb
T + 7.0 - Cast FFB 1, Crits, HS counter at 1
T + 10.0 - Cast FFB 2, Crits, HS counter at 2, procs HS 1, counter back to 0
T + 12.0 - Living Bomb Detonates, Crits, HS counter at 1
T + 13.0 - Cast FFB 3, destined to crit and proc HS 2.


Now, here's the race, if my FFB travel time is longer than my GCD modified by haste and for lag a la Affix's double shatter effect of precasting the GCD, I can put up a living bomb, but thats a risky risky maneuver. I know no great documentation has gone into travel times (I really should do that eventually), but a second and a half modified by haste and precasting to get off the first HS pyro is a bit chancy.

I'll totally agree that if it isn't the situation above that the LB first can potentially be a good choice, but if you have two FFB crits in a row, and a LB detonation crit, the risk of not precasting the pyro becomes very much so worth considering. The secondary concern I would have with this is actual execution and tracking which state you're in (safe to LB, not safe to LB)

All and all, I think a more verbose way of putting the prioritization would be:

Maintain Scorch, HS Pyro unless LB needs refreshing and theres no risk of losing a proc in which case LB, LB if needing refreshing, FFB otherwise.

If this can be done reliably enough (and I won't be surprised if it can be, considering how buffs/debuffs tend to apply), then in no situation should you divert from the standard rule, as no bad luck in the world can cause you to lose your pyro, again, assuming you can pull the double pyro reliably in a case of 2 FFB+LB+scorch crit.

I'm not sure why scorch is not listed at the front of the priority list, considering that even if it's not the best for personal dps, having it wear off is probably the biggest raid dps loss you could have (and possibly personal as well if you have to cast 2 due to it wearing out). While you could say you should scorch before it runs out but delay it to the last second if you have a HS up or LB to apply, I'd say that how much you can afford to push scorch forward depends on the fight a lot more than anything else, so if you're past the "can afford" point you should probably reapply it over casting a LB or pyro, and if you're not past that point you should cast anything but a scorch, unless you happen to just have enough time for an instant but not enough time for FFB, in which case you should use LB/pyro before the scorch if needed/available.

One way you can avoid having lost procs is to be thinking one spell ahead - Be spamming the button for the next spell that you want to cast while your current one is casting - This is probably the most reliable way to prevent *gasp* pyro-muching(?)

I read a lot of the posts but I still do not see a set rotation. I am confused as to why some people precast pyroblast in order to get a back to back Hot Streak.

In my gear I usually get about mid 4k to high 4k DPS.

The World of Warcraft Armory

The reason you don't see a rotation is because there isn't one, you just prioritise spells, since this build is relying heavily on procs. The only slight bit of 'rotation' you use where it is a fixed spell cast are the first three spells which is LB -> Scorch -> Scorch. Now anything could happen really, you could crit with both scorches, meaning a pyro would follow, or you could crit none, meaning an FFB would follow. It just depends on how things work on critwise for you so you prioritise.

A general rule of thumb:
LB > HSPyro > Scorch > FFB

LB is 2k - 6k damage depending on how much SP you have and whether it crits or not, and is only using the 1.5S GCD, so you are losing DPS when it isn't up.
HSPyro is the same, but you have 10 seconds while it is there, so this is prioritised over everything except LB.
Scorch should be reloaded roughly when there is 3-5 seconds left on its duration unless LB runs out, or you get a lot of HS procs.
DO NOT stop casting FFB/Scorch to launch a HSPyro or LB. Do it after.

another question. I get tells saying it is better not to use HS proc when heroism is up. Is that true?

Also, I heard that LB should only be used when one is moving around such as 3d when u have to move out of a Voidzone or wave. Myth?

Did you even read what you quoted yourself?

from 3.1 patch notes:

Rune of Razorfrost now affects Frost damage done by the DK only, but stacks up to 10%.

It was at least debatable which was better depending on gear and raid make up, but I suppose this permanently puts deep fire/arc ahead of frostfire.

I don't think we will be able to free points from Improved Scorch since it will probably include a self-only benefit (it seems blizzard intend to avoid the "only one people in the raid get the debuff/buff talents because it's a waste of talent points").

I'm expecting something like 1% crit / point in improved scorch.

obviously I did. Let me rephrase what I was saying: Why do some people say LB should only be casted when moving around and not used in a rule of thumb rotation? Mind you that was said by a mage who pulls high 5k DPS in 3drakes,nax, ect.

I guess if you had an encounter with a reliable 12-15(maybe even a little more) seconds interval when you'd definitely had to move (perhaps even longer than 1 GCD, ie not just a Void Zone) it might be an idea to NOT rely on HS procs and adjust your rotation to this circumstances by delaying LB a little. Else I'd have no idea why one should do so:

The big question is, do the criticial strikes count towards HS procs, as there is nothing to indicate otherwise, it could be quite the buff to the procs per minute.

So now that new glyph is worth more than what one? Not Frostfire, remaining are Molten Armor and Improved Scorch, but i am not good at math and i can only suppose dropping Scorch is the best choice. Someone can think about it mathwise?

Well first we have to see what happens with scorch.

Second you have to know if the raid has anyone else to provide the buff (warlock specced into imp shadowbolt, frost mage)

Third, you have to take an honest look at yourself and say "do I ever lose the scorch stack when I'm maintaining it". If the answer is yes, and nobody else is maintaining the raid debuff the raid probably needs you to take the glyph. 10% crit is a huge deal for all the casters in the group, even 5% is a lot of dps left on the table.

The math on scorch glyph otherwise looks something like this.

Assuming you don't lose the scorch stack and your behavior won't change without the glyph (ie get more conservative and overscorch to keep it up) then the value of the glyph is 3 scorches per fight that instead could be something more useful like a frostfirebolt and a half (or ffb+pyro or ffb+living bomb).

If the fight is short, and on trash, this is a fairly significant hit. If, as expected, Uldar fights will be 3-6 minutes or longer instead of the 1.45 minute Patchwerk kind of stuff we're seeing now at the top end, a couple extra scorches is fairly insignificant. Scorch, because of the extra shot at pyroblast procs, isn't as bad relatively speaking as it used to be.

so yeah, raidng mages will likey go with frostfirebolt+molten armor+living bomb if the crits proc hot streaks. If they don't, the glyph will be ignored, as the dot crits probably don't by themselves outweigh the convenience of the scorch glyph and the indirect behavior benefits it supports (not overscorching, and faster recovery of stack if you miscalculate)