The Frostfire Bolt thread (updated 3.2.2) - Page 38

Norwest · 03/19/09, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Charlyfox

Dear EJs,

This is my first post here so I’d likle to thanks every contributor of this outstanding forum. I’ll add that being French I am not a native English speaker and beg for your lenience concerning my English.

Context of my question:

1) I am the scorch bitch of the raid.
2) From readings here I assume that letting the scorch debuff drop will loose more overall raid dps than any personal gains I could make so I need to keep it up all time.

Motivation of my question:

Given the big dps difference between scorch and ffb, and the fact that the scorch debuff has a fixed duration unaffected by haste, I believe that there exist some haste break point where haste doesn t scale dps linearly : basically where you can include one more ffb in your scorche debuff maintaining rotation, you change your ffb/scorch ratio and will expect a non linear gain of dps (a kind of threshold/breakpoint effect). More accurately, the percentage of time you will be dpsing using ffb vs scorche takes a step change when you fit an extra ffb in your routine.

My question is the following :

what is the right mathematical modelisation that can take into account the time spent to cast HS pyro and LB ?

I fell that using an average number of Pyro+LB will not take into account the integer/ arithmetical side of this problem…

I know simulating in rawr will give me a good result for any one gearset but please keep in mind I am looking for the haste break points.

Here's the problem with trying to look for those breakpoints.

Say you've just cast scorch, you now have 30s to cast another one. In those 30 seconds you'll cast 2 or 3 living bombs, 0 to 5 Hot Streak pyros and the rest FFB. That's 2-8 instant casts between scorches. Each number of instants is a completely different case that has its own breakpoints and has to be looked at separately. Likely the breakpoints for 4 instants and 5 instants are completely different, so while you are optimizing one case you are making another worse.

In addition, instant cast times are variable and hard to predict. Spamming time and lag affect the time it takes to cast an instant. Over a 30second period and 5 instants, your error in estimated cast times gets to be significant. I'd estimate you can guess your lag within 20ms and your spam lag within 50ms. For 5 instants, that means you can be off my as much as .35s. That sort of error negates much of the benefit of getting your haste in the 'sweet spot'

ronoridius1 · 03/19/09, 2:18 PM

Is there an actual point to FFB now? Since Arcane and Fireball beats it. Is it the only debuff still that makes the Bloodstrike Glyph work for DKs? (20% more Bloodstrike/Heartstrike Damage on "snared" targets), people are saying it won't work on anything except FFB?

robbymo · 03/19/09, 2:24 PM

It depends on mana regen on long fights in Ulduar. I plan on using FFB as my seconds spec in case there are severe mana issues on the new progression fights.

Charlyfox · 03/19/09, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Norwest

Here's the problem with trying to look for those breakpoints.

Say you've just cast scorch, you now have 30s to cast another one. In those 30 seconds you'll cast 2 or 3 living bombs, 0 to 5 Hot Streak pyros and the rest FFB. That's 2-8 instant casts between scorches. Each number of instants is a completely different case that has its own breakpoints and has to be looked at separately. Likely the breakpoints for 4 instants and 5 instants are completely different, so while you are optimizing one case you are making another worse.

'

You are right, this is exactly why I am at loss not finding the relevant mathematical tool. I agree with your comment that a bit of lag could just negate any benefit of the sweet spot, but there could be ways of defining a safety zone to cope with those.

I read back the very interesting thread "Mathematics of dynamic cycles", but markovian processes analysis is in my opinion largely ineffective there as the debuff fixed windows goes against the basic principle that transition from one state to the other depends only of the initial state.

Do you believe that arithmetical analysis on the number of instants /HS Pyro generated ponderated by their probability of occuring would be the right approach ? It seems very close to what is done in rawr (if i understood correctly) but i didn't see any scaling effects there.

Originally Posted by robbymo

It depends on mana regen on long fights in Ulduar. I plan on using FFB as my seconds spec in case there are severe mana issues on the new progression fights.

This is also my case, firefrost seems to be the most sustainable single target dps spec at the momment

odyz · 03/19/09, 4:16 PM

As of 3.1 from that thread also here at EJ, the highest single target dps spec will be the 20/51 fireball spec shown here.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0&version=9704

That of course also assumes that you have the majority of BiS gear, and that you have another FFB spec mage to provide the scorch debuff. (Or Lock depending)

From watching streams and reading about many fights in Ulduar, the alternate spec has been a deep frost for the especially mana intensive fights but that seems very odd to me.

FFB being the lightest mana usage spec compared to the very gear dependent FB spec, it seems to be the obvious choice for 3.1 when it arrives.

solbergb · 03/19/09, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by robbymo

It depends on mana regen on long fights in Ulduar. I plan on using FFB as my seconds spec in case there are severe mana issues on the new progression fights.

FFB is also moderately good at trash and adds while being almost as good as arc/fire on bosses. (better AOE, less dependence on Torment of the Weak which may not apply to adds or anything that dies fairly quicky)

I went back to it after doing arc/fire because in Nax/Maly/Sarth3D the few % increase in single target damage applied to fewer fights than he few % decrease in "everything else" damage, and in the hardest fights we were doing it was a wash (eg, sarth3d requires both good single target and aoe dps in the initial dps race...the time I was saving the raid with better drake dps was being lost in the aoe add cleanups). So I went with the spec that was less annoying to play when not raiding.

I think it will make an excellent general purpose spec for Uldar, good for long fights, good for fights with adds. Your other spec might be more single target oriented, for things more like Patchwerk or which have phases where single target dps over 2 min or so is very critical to overall success.

Hotan · 03/22/09, 1:24 AM

while this might be the FFB thread, everybody fairly clearly understands that it has migrated to being the FB thread.

I do know for sure from being frost on PTR (we didn't have anybody online with replenish so they made me do it) that the mana regen is absolutely ridiculous.

Pinsor · 03/22/09, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Hotan

I do know for sure from being frost on PTR (we didn't have anybody online with replenish so they made me do it) that the mana regen is absolutely ridiculous.

Care to elaborate? Do you mean yours, the raids, or whose? Also, did you use FrB glyph and WE glyph with standard MA glyph?

Hotan · 03/22/09, 5:39 PM

FrB glyph, WE Glyph, MA Glyph

My mana regen was amazing. I would have had to try to actually be put in a situation where running out of mana was possible.

I can't speak too much for the damage, and this all seems much more appropriate for the frost raiding thread.

TigaFin · 03/22/09, 5:55 PM

If there's a strong point to frost/TTW, it's that mana is not a problem (even with the semi-broken replenishment). 10% mana cost reduction from clearcasting, 3% from precision, 10% from frost channeling, 9% from brain freeze. If there was anything useful in the first 10 points in arcane aside from clearcasting, I think frost mages would go for it. (Brain freeze was a 1.7% DPS increase on Patchwerk this week and it's a good mobility talent, so I'm taking it and not ice floes.)

But yeah, this is the wrong thread for it.

willem11 · 03/23/09, 7:14 AM

When you gear out of the 2 t7 bonus I guess flamecaps are back again, time to start farming them again it seems.

BeeLz · 03/23/09, 8:12 AM

Originally Posted by willem11

When you gear out of the 2 t7 bonus I guess flamecaps are back again, time to start farming them again it seems.

Well, unless the fight is short I don't think you can go without mana gems.

willem11 · 03/23/09, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by BeeLz

Well, unless the fight is short I don't think you can go without mana gems.

Remember mana gems will be allot less effective also without the 2t7 bonus. And its not like ffb has mana issues.

odyz · 03/23/09, 5:53 PM

From the optimal sets thread, unless I missed something, flamecaps were only ~2.27 dps increase. Much better to be using speed pot or potion of wild magic.

Again I may have missed something in the calculations.

Docjowles · 03/23/09, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by odyz

From the optimal sets thread, unless I missed something, flamecaps were only ~2.27 dps increase. Much better to be using speed pot or potion of wild magic..

Neither of which shares a cooldown with flame caps. Unless you're saying that using a flame cap instead of a mana gem would require you to pop a mana pot to avoid going OOM.

odyz · 03/23/09, 6:06 PM

No rather I was more figuring out which would yield better overall damage.

Using flamecap (80 fire for 1 min) + runic mana pot (~4300 mana) or
Using mana gem (~3400 mana) + potion of wild magic (200 crit 200 dmg 15 sec)

I neglected the lack of the T7 bonus originally, apologies.

Omnia · 03/23/09, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by odyz

As of 3.1 from that thread also here at EJ, the highest single target dps spec will be the 20/51 fireball spec shown here.

According to Rawr, Arcane still beats Fireball assuming that no evocations are interrupted. Note that SimulationCraft is known not to model the Arcane spec properly, if that's where you got that info from.

Frah · 03/24/09, 12:52 AM

No mater what I do FFB is still top dps spec for me regardless of what rawr says. I tried arcane/fire and frostfire on ptr patchwerks and I did more as FFB. Given they are both the same rotations I would have thought RNG would have not played a significant part. So I was then thinking how well do models reflect the increased cast rate and hence the increased proc opportunity of FFB over fire/arc. If its not this then the only other thing i could think of would be the fact I had to evocate as arcane fire (although I still saw my dps being higher as FFB during the encounter than fire/arc)

ash2ash · 03/24/09, 2:54 AM

Originally Posted by Frah

No mater what I do FFB is still top dps spec for me regardless of what rawr says. I tried arcane/fire and frostfire on ptr patchwerks and I did more as FFB. Given they are both the same rotations I would have thought RNG would have not played a significant part. So I was then thinking how well do models reflect the increased cast rate and hence the increased proc opportunity of FFB over fire/arc. If its not this then the only other thing i could think of would be the fact I had to evocate as arcane fire (although I still saw my dps being higher as FFB during the encounter than fire/arc)

That's wierd. I think you might be raiding with a prot warrior that doesn't keep tclap up, resulting in a 12% drop in dmg of your main nukes for fireball/arcane specs.

Arantes · 03/24/09, 4:24 AM

Originally Posted by Frah

No mater what I do FFB is still top dps spec for me regardless of what rawr says. I tried arcane/fire and frostfire on ptr patchwerks and I did more as FFB. Given they are both the same rotations I would have thought RNG would have not played a significant part. So I was then thinking how well do models reflect the increased cast rate and hence the increased proc opportunity of FFB over fire/arc. If its not this then the only other thing i could think of would be the fact I had to evocate as arcane fire (although I still saw my dps being higher as FFB during the encounter than fire/arc)

This may be a silly question but I have seen mages not take the talent: Do you have Torment the Weak when specced arcane or fire? You're talking about PTR testing so I'm sure you do. If that's the case, then as ash points out you likely don't have Thunderclap or any other tank debuff up on the mobs.

donnamatrix · 03/24/09, 12:12 PM

I will be adding FFB for my dual-spec in 3.1 (currently Arcane)

Is there a macro function which allows casting Pyroblast within a FFB sequence, but only if Hot Streak is active?

Still learning the WOW-method of macro writing (as opposed to Excel)

something like:

/castsequence frostfire bolt, pyroblast [iff hot streak=active, /stopcast]

Any help is appreciated. I don't normally like the button-mashing, but my lag in 25-man naxx is horrid.

Thanks!

Donnamatrix

Saruk · 03/24/09, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by donnamatrix

I will be adding FFB for my dual-spec in 3.1 (currently Arcane)

Is there a macro function which allows casting Pyroblast within a FFB sequence, but only if Hot Streak is active?

Still learning the WOW-method of macro writing (as opposed to Excel)

something like:

/castsequence frostfire bolt, pyroblast [iff hot streak=active, /stopcast]

Any help is appreciated. I don't normally like the button-mashing, but my lag in 25-man naxx is horrid.

Thanks!

Donnamatrix

No, you can't do this in a macro. My advice would be to get EBB and set up a hotstreak bar, that way you are sure never to miss a proc.

Griggsy · 03/24/09, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Saruk

No, you can't do this in a macro. My advice would be to get EBB and set up a hotstreak bar, that way you are sure never to miss a proc.

What he said works well for many folks.

Or try Event Alert - it can flash the screen and put a big icon up on the screen to alert you anytime it's up.

For me this is a god-send since I am often leading raids and have to pay attention to many other aspects of the fight and what others are doing and would otherwise miss my own procs without something so obnoxious as this to remind me.

donnamatrix · 03/24/09, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Griggsy

What he said works well for many folks.

Or try Event Alert - it can flash the screen and put a big icon up on the screen to alert you anytime it's up.

For me this is a god-send since I am often leading raids and have to pay attention to many other aspects of the fight and what others are doing and would otherwise miss my own procs without something so obnoxious as this to remind me.

Who's better than you!

Thanks so much. I'll check these out

Donnamatrix

robbymo · 03/24/09, 12:56 PM

I use Mage Alert. It actually has a voice that will tell you what ability proc'd. For HS you will hear a voice that simply say's 'Hot Streak', and your screen will flash as well. Works very well and I almost never miss a HS proc.

A quick and small buff notification add-on for mages. When Clearcasting, Missile Barrage, Hot Streak, Firestarter, Fingers of Frost or Brain Freeze procs, a small notification box appears and remains until buff is used or gone. Automatically detects talented Fiery Payback and notifies when below 35% health. Also keeps the player updated on Living Bomb, presenting them with a movable frame showing the time until their Living Bomb explodes.