However I'm pretty sure mimiron is tauntable so just make the tank taunt when you're at 120% threat.
That won't help, you will actually have to pull aggro for taunt to have an effect: Taunt - Spell - World of Warcraft
Needless to say that pulling aggro, even if it's just for a few seconds, might cause a wipe on some encounters.
Actually, I'm fairly certain both from experience and previous testing that taunt does indeed give the tank threat even if the top threat has not pulled aggro. This was analyzed earlier in BC when growl (bear taunt) had measurably different mechanics than a warrior's taunt. A bear was able to maintain aggro on a mob by doing nothing more than taunting while a mage continually surpassed him on threat, while the same could not be said for a warrior. At some point, taunt was changed to behave like growl to help homogenize the tanking classes. I know that at least for Hodir in particular, a good portion of our bear tank's threat comes from taunts in the 100-130% range. The tooltip saying it has no effect if the target is already attacking you is a remnant from the old spell that was never updated.
This is off topic for this thread, but your information and assumptions are wrong. Elitist Jerks - Threat Mechanics TankTips.com - Taunt Revisited
Taunting a Mob gives that person threat equal to the mobs previous target only. It will not equal threat of players that are over 100%.
Its easy to test:
1. Let a tank get a bit of threat and stop attacking
2. Pop Mirror Images
3. Go over the 130% aggro mark
4. Have the tank taunt
5. Notice the tank will not gain any additional threat.
This is off topic for this thread, but your information and assumptions are wrong. Elitist Jerks - Threat Mechanics TankTips.com - Taunt Revisited
Taunting a Mob gives that person threat equal to the mobs previous target only. It will not equal threat of players that are over 100%.
Its easy to test:
1. Let a tank get a bit of threat and stop attacking
2. Pop Mirror Images
3. Go over the 130% aggro mark
4. Have the tank taunt
5. Notice the tank will not gain any additional threat.
I understand what you want to show, but ironically you showed the wrong thing. You can't reach 130% of your tank threat while MI is active -- the threat indicated by by mods is only what your threat would be had you not popped mirror image -- your actual threat is 4 million less than what is being shown.
With this said, unless something was changed in threat mechanics that I am not aware of, taunting gives the taunter threat equal to the player than the boss has aggro on (in contradiction to 'the highest threat player'). This means that if you have 128% threat, and your tank taunts, he gains nothing (since the tank has aggro on the boss). If you get 131% threat, then the boss switched aggro to you, targets you and starts moving your direction (unless the mob has a ranged attack) If someone taunts at that point they gain your threat.
If the game allowed taunting to give the taunter the threat equal to the top threat, then all threat mechanics would be rendered completely pointless and the game completely dull.
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<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
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If the game allowed taunting to give the taunter the threat equal to the top threat, then all threat mechanics would be rendered completely pointless and the game completely dull.
Actually, this is really easy to test. Go to Malygos, have the tank build mediocre threat, get sparks to ensure threat passing, get a hand of protection, blow up to as much threat past the tank as possible, usually end up at 150-160% threat, have the tank taunt while the HoP is still on. When HoP wears off, Malygos will stay on the tank as his threat will be brought up to where your 160% value was at, taking you in line with him now to a 100% level, equal with the tank.
I know this has worked before because it was used when I did 6minute Malygos on normal mode. Now if Malygos is just a special condition, then I may be wrong.
This is also why some mechanics use top threat and current primary threat holder target for some abilities.
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This entire taunt thing is way off topic, but what it does is ridiculously easy to test.
Step 1) Find a target to shoot at, /focus it, hit it with any ability that will generate threat.
Step 2) Target yourself, push the following macro:
/script isTanking, status, threatpct, rawthreatpct, threatvalue = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("target", "focus")
/script ChatFrame1:AddMessage('Your target has '..threatvalue..' threat on the focus target');
Step 3) Have a warrior friend taunt the target off of you, preferably by taunting and tapping escape twice to prevent any further threat generating acts (maybe removing shield too? Unsure if blocking generates threat)
Step 4) Target the warrior, push the macro again.
Step 5) Make another threatening act against the target, wand it, downrank spell it, etc, so as not to pull off the warrior, but to add threat to yourself.
Step 6) Target yourself, push the macro again.
Step 7) Target the warrior, push the macro again.
Step 8) Have the warrior taunt again, and push the macro.
If we assume that the first threatening act you make puts 1000 points of threat on the target, and the second 100, then you should see your initial threat at 1000, the warriors taunted threat at 1000, your threat after making the second act at 1100, warriors still at 1000, and warriors following the second taunt still at 1000.
All taunt does is take the current target of the mob, and set the taunting persons threat to their threat value and forces the mob to attack the taunting person.
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Actually, this is really easy to test. Go to Malygos, have the tank build mediocre threat, get sparks to ensure threat passing, get a hand of protection, blow up to as much threat past the tank as possible, usually end up at 150-160% threat, have the tank taunt while the HoP is still on. When HoP wears off, Malygos will stay on the tank as his threat will be brought up to where your 160% value was at, taking you in line with him now to a 100% level, equal with the tank.
I know this has worked before because it was used when I did 6minute Malygos on normal mode. Now if Malygos is just a special condition, then I may be wrong.
This is another mechanic in action. Immunities to a mobs main attack (physical attacks in the case of HoP, all attacks when talking about DS or IB) forces them to attack the secondary aggro target (if there is one) for the duration. Threat is however still intact for the duration and as soon as the immunity drops you will be reaquired as the mobs target. This means that if you surpass 130% of the current tanks threat while you're affected by HoP you will be the primary target for the mob, but since you're immune it will ignore you until the HoP ends (which is why taunting works in your example).
General Hard mode was recently downed by Fusion and all four of their mages were FFB (Wow Web Stats). Is this because of the mana concerns during that fight or is FFB now superior to ttw/fire?
General Hard mode was recently downed by Fusion and all four of their mages were FFB (Wow Web Stats). Is this because of the mana concerns during that fight or is FFB now superior to ttw/fire?
I had noticed Fusion was FB and Frost specs (thanks I learned a lot from you guys), I initially assumed Frost was a pvp build, then I took a peek and said "what the...." Did some research and found out it was for the general....again thanks for the tip.
I couldn't figure out which thread to put this.
In an effort to maximize the use of dual specs, I was wondering if anyone has suggestions of different specs for different uldar fights. For example, Arcane for XT (ie burst heart), but FB or FFB for Hodir to utilize crit buffs.
2. Razorscale - Arcane or FFB (burst and add killing, though I don't like TTW here)
3. Ignis - FB
4. XT - FFB (burst and good AOE)
5. AoI - FB
6. Kologarn - FB or FFB (add killing + LB hitting more than 1 part)
7. Auriaya - FFB (mana effiency and good aoe)
8. Hodir - FFB (no question, crit multiplier)
9. Thorim - FB or FFB (gauntlet adds not allways having TTW)
10. Freya - FB or FFB (some aoe too)
11. Mimiron - FB or FFB (I like the mana efficient FFB and burst of here (Icy veins up all phases). LB for hitting all 3 parts in phase 4)
12. General Vezax - Frost or FFB (FFB is more than enough for non-hard mode)
13. Yogg-Saron - FFB (don't allways have TTW up on tentacles)
I might seem biased towards FFB. It's a good overall spec in Ulduar imo.
You should fireblast whenever moving and you have no HS proc or LB to refresh, which can hurt on mana if you have to AOE in the fight as well.
Also Icy veins is good burst to stack during important phases. I suspect the mana effiency of FFB will be even more noticable once losing my 2 piece t7.5 and grabbing 4 piece t8.5.
Also note that I'm not a huge fan of TTW being such a large chunk of FB/Arcane specs damage and I find flamestrike quite clunky.
Once again, theese are opinions, your milage and preferences may vary.
2. Razorscale - Arcane or FFB (burst and add killing, though I don't like TTW here)
3. Ignis - FB
4. XT - FFB (burst and good AOE)
5. AoI - FB
6. Kologarn - FB or FFB (add killing + LB hitting more than 1 part)
7. Auriaya - FFB (mana effiency and good aoe)
8. Hodir - FFB (no question, crit multiplier)
9. Thorim - FB or FFB (gauntlet adds not allways having TTW)
10. Freya - FB or FFB (some aoe too)
11. Mimiron - FB or FFB (I like the mana efficient FFB and burst of here (Icy veins up all phases). LB for hitting all 3 parts in phase 4)
12. General Vezax - Frost or FFB (FFB is more than enough for non-hard mode)
13. Yogg-Saron - FFB (don't allways have TTW up on tentacles)
I might seem biased towards FFB. It's a good overall spec in Ulduar imo.
I disagree. FFB is significantly behind FB on single targets. While it is true that FFB has better AoE, the AoE portions of the mentioned fights are not significant/difficult (at least on normal modes).
Razorscale - Single target is significantly more important than AoE. Fire>FFB
XT - Single target is significantly more important than AoE. Fire>FFB
Kologarn - AoE is relatively insignificant compared to the single target damage required to the chest when an arm is down. Fire>FFB
Auriaya - The AoE is significant, however, the adds die very quickly which makes Blizzard less than ideal. Arcane Explosion is a much better spell for this type of AoE. Arcane>Fire>FFB.
Thorim - The way we do it, I spend as much time sheeping the adds in the hallway as I do DPSing the small adds. The necessity of killing the mini-boss quickly outweighs the benefits of not having ttw on the adds. Fire>FFB
Mimiron - Mana efficiency shouldnot be a big deal for mages on this fight. We get time to regen 15-25% of our mana between phases and we can use 4 mana gems and 2 evocations if we plan ahead. The single target damage from Fire still is much more important than any AoE or efficiency that FFB might off. Fire>FFB
Vezax - After 2 successful kills of Vezax as Fire, I can say that mana is not an issue. Wand when you are not in black stuff, do your normal rotation when you are.
You are forgetting that FB has no burst at all. Using it on Razorscale is a bad idea, as you'll do mediocre dps on landing phases in contrary to FFB or Arcane.
Same for XT's heart.
I'd also argue burst on Kologarn's arm when he has players gripped, but FB performs well here and there's little aoe.
Icy veins is part of what makes FFB a better spec than Fireball on some fights. 20% extra haste, multiplied with Heroism+trinkets etc is nothing to sneeze at.
If you argue killing miniboss in gauntlet is important, FFB and Arcane does a better job there than fireball, because of burst.
Also on Mimiron, TTW will probably not be active on the head.
The 3% more DPS that fireball does, is not enough to offsett the advantage of icy veins and TTW independancy on some fights.
Also the reason I mention AOE is not only because FFB has superior AOE, but it has the mana to spam it as needed on any fight. And you can allways fireblast while moving without worries of mana (with a slightly stronger fireblast to boot, though that is not a big chunk of damage)
I disagree. FFB is significantly behind FB on single targets. While it is true that FFB has better AoE, the AoE portions of the mentioned fights are not significant/difficult (at least on normal modes).
XT - Single target is significantly more important than AoE. Fire>FFB
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I think you're overlooking the benefit of a FFB specced into improved Blizzard for XT, it isn't about the dps its about the control. With the improved blizzard spec I can easily hold down a pile without any help, where as the locks dealing with piles that don't have mages on them require shaman or hunters running around to help them out with earthbind and frost trap. Granted post nerf the fight became a joke on normal but before the nerf the control factor helped free up a lot of dps to stay on the heart making beating the original enrage a lot easier.
But if you do the fight right and dont tank XT in the center of the room like most people do, you dont need (much if any) aoe.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
This is also true, you can have 2 or 3 people take care of all the aoe if you tank XT in a corner on top of a trash pile.
Way off topic (?), but the correct placement is in the middle along one of the shorter walls. If tanked here, the two closest trash piles will not spawn adds.
Additionally (for our raids at least) DPS is high enough that we just chain heart phases. He ends one and goes right into the next. Mages on that fight don't usually worry about adds and spec FB as there is no "burst" phase with him always in heart mode.
The only fight where I think FFB is demonstrably better than Fireball/TTW is Hodir, because of how ridiculous Storm Power is. You can make an argument for FFB on XT and maybe Auriaya, but I've not seen any evidence of FFB being clearly superior.
On Mimiron if you have a DK in the raid, his diseases will spread to all three sections during P4, so TTW should be active there. Same deal with Yogg, since our DK tank doesn't take portals and doesn't have much else to do in P2, he keeps diseases going on Crushers for the mages. There's not many cases where TTW should be inactive - if you're missing it, yell at your tanks.
We spec full Frost on Vezax (hardmode) for mana. Freya +3 is pretty terrible for mages in general, but we've found having one Frost mage in the raid for snares is useful there.
Quick question. I assume this rotation for FFB is the same as for FB. get living bomb up, scorch's, then FFB continuously until HS procs, or you need to re-apply LB and Scorch correct?
Quick question. I assume this rotation for FFB is the same as for FB. get living bomb up, scorch's, then FFB continuously until HS procs, or you need to re-apply LB and Scorch correct?
If you dont have an affliction lock putting up shadow mastery, yes, that's the rotation.
But if you do the fight right and dont tank XT in the center of the room like most people do, you dont need (much if any) aoe.
We tank him at the base of the stairs, know the other way is easier, but we have several players who are bad relearners so we've just kept doing the way that we 1 shot it each time and while it doesn't eliminate spawns on the nearby trash piles they are siginificantly less than the back piles.
I disagree. FFB is significantly behind FB on single targets. While it is true that FFB has better AoE, the AoE portions of the mentioned fights are not significant/difficult (at least on normal modes).
Razorscale - Single target is significantly more important than AoE. Fire>FFB
XT - Single target is significantly more important than AoE. Fire>FFB
Kologarn - AoE is relatively insignificant compared to the single target damage required to the chest when an arm is down. Fire>FFB
Auriaya - The AoE is significant, however, the adds die very quickly which makes Blizzard less than ideal. Arcane Explosion is a much better spell for this type of AoE. Arcane>Fire>FFB.
Thorim - The way we do it, I spend as much time sheeping the adds in the hallway as I do DPSing the small adds. The necessity of killing the mini-boss quickly outweighs the benefits of not having ttw on the adds. Fire>FFB
Mimiron - Mana efficiency shouldnot be a big deal for mages on this fight. We get time to regen 15-25% of our mana between phases and we can use 4 mana gems and 2 evocations if we plan ahead. The single target damage from Fire still is much more important than any AoE or efficiency that FFB might off. Fire>FFB
Vezax - After 2 successful kills of Vezax as Fire, I can say that mana is not an issue. Wand when you are not in black stuff, do your normal rotation when you are.
Vezax - you can even do vezax as arcane(normal mode), but its just harder and FFB spec is best there, without a doubt.
Mimiron - 10man arcane is best spec, i recently did mimiron hard mode and found out arcane was best spec there, simple cause of survival and better dps.
XT - Assuming you are doing 25man hard mode and you are killing heart, arcane is best then, but it requires good gear etc, it isnt so simple take spec and do well.
I think people in general overvalue fireball spec and it is most boring spec for me. Remember there is situaions where torment the weak doesnt work.
General Hard mode was recently downed by Fusion and all four of their mages were FFB (Wow Web Stats). Is this because of the mana concerns during that fight or is FFB now superior to ttw/fire?
I think frostfirebolt scales to most buffs better then other specs when it comes to increased damage zones on Vezax, the Hodir buffs, or possibly the heart on XT (more overall single target fire, more on heart FFB for myself having tried it both specs.) Mana is obviously easier FFB for Vezax, but I could see frost being best mana wise for hard mode.
FFB is certainly better on XT hardmode for heart dmg although at some point this might not matter much. Depending on how you do the fight exactly, I can see mana being a huge concern for Fire/TTW especially with 4pc t8.
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FH - LF 1 Baller PvE Mage
All noncrit DoTs (not Ignite) generate Combustion charges (Bug?)
On vezax hard mode if raid dps is good, FFB spec is ok for hard mode.
XT hard mode i didnt try FB there, but you dont need aoe at all as hard mode, and shooting for like 8mins or more on single target i think mana would be an issua with FB.
You dont feel survival problems until you start doing hard modes. I found 1 FFB minus. I spent over 10hours at mimiron hard mode and FFB was a problem for me, its so fragile there(died several times) - you dont have magic absorption and you have playing with fire.
05/09/09, 2:17 PM
