I know that Flame Throwing doesn't directly increase dps, but also at the same time planning ahead for movements can negate the indirect dps gain.
I'm not sure I follow this reasoning. +3/6 yards is +3/6 yards. If it's not 41 yards, then it's 44. There's a lot more you could be spending your mental power on during a raid than "planning ahead for movements" so that you can take a very situational spell that could actually lower your aoe dps since you just knocked your enemies out of range of arcane explosion spam. Especially since it's very possible to do the thorim gauntlet hard mode without blast wave, I'm not seeing it.
I know that Flame Throwing doesn't directly increase dps, but also at the same time planning ahead for movements can negate the indirect dps gain.
There are 5280 square yards in a disc centered on a boss that a fire mage with 2/2 flame throwing can use to dps. There are only 4070 square yards available with 0/2 flame throwing. The intangible dps gain comes from having over 25% more area to plan movements around. I don't think it is at all fair to view flame throwing as nothing better than error trapping. It would be like saying we only spec 5/5 fire power so that we can run a less tight dps rotation.
Originally Posted by Kyth
The only true error is in not learning how to make your second kill better.
There are 5280 square yards in a disc centered on a boss that a fire mage with 2/2 flame throwing can use to dps. There are only 4070 square yards available with 0/2 flame throwing. The intangible dps gain comes from having over 25% more area to plan movements around. I don't think it is at all fair to view flame throwing as nothing better than error trapping. It would be like saying we only spec 5/5 fire power so that we can run a less tight dps rotation.
I don't think there's a single fight where needing an extra +3/6 yards is beneficial. There is ALWAYS space for ranged casters to be in range of casting, and with that being said, any talent that is a raw DPS boost should immediately be valued over the pseudo-utility of Flame Throwing.
I don't think there's a single fight where needing an extra +3/6 yards is beneficial. There is ALWAYS space for ranged casters to be in range of casting, and with that being said, any talent that is a raw DPS boost should immediately be valued over the pseudo-utility of Flame Throwing.
This sort of generalisation is downright silly. I can't imagine that you'd expect people reading this to take it seriously.
It is true there are some fights where range talents might not be required, not important or not even useful. But there is a big difference from saying that, to implying that said talents are useless/undesirable in all fights and should be skipped over. Yes there might nearly always be space to dps, but often have to move to get there. Movement is time, and time is a valuable commodity.
Old discussion though, and already been discussed to death already.
I don't think there's a single fight where needing an extra +3/6 yards is beneficial. There is ALWAYS space for ranged casters to be in range of casting, and with that being said, any talent that is a raw DPS boost should immediately be valued over the pseudo-utility of Flame Throwing.
Try hardmode Mimiron.
Even Freya could benefit a little bit from it and especially Yogg-Saron.
This sort of generalisation is downright silly. I can't imagine that you'd expect people reading this to take it seriously.
It is true there are some fights where range talents might not be required, not important or not even useful. But there is a big difference from saying that, to implying that said talents are useless/undesirable in all fights and should be skipped over. Yes there might nearly always be space to dps, but often have to move to get there. Movement is time, and time is a valuable commodity.
Old discussion though, and already been discussed to death already.
Please enlighten me on the benefits of having +3/6 yards of range in Ulduar.
No, Deconstructor doesn't count as there's no reason to not be within 30yards of range the entire fight.
No, Iron Council doesn't count as 30 yards is more than enough to avoid the AOE lightning while casting.
No, Kologarn doesn't count because the entire encounter situates you within 30yards of Kologarn.
No, Auriya doesn't count because you're essentially in melee range the entire fight.
No, Hodir doesn't count because the NPCs don't put toasty fires/moonlights 36 yards away. Also, being out of range of picking up the Storm Power debuff off of a raid member is stupid.
No, Mimiron doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately.
No, Thorim doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately. Also, try staying maxrange on hardmode Thorim and see what good that does you.
Originally Posted by c0nscript
Even Freya could benefit a little bit from it
No, Freya doesn't count because there's no reason to be at max range for the trio, no reason to be maxrange on the lashers, and no reason to be maxrange with the Conservator as there are MORE THAN ENOUGH mushrooms to stand under. Not to mention that "helping a little" doesn't make the extra 6 yards sound very useful.
No, General doesn't count because ranged will be within ~30yards of General so any shadow crashes will also be within ~30 yards of General.
No, Yogg-Saron doesn't count because the only phase where those extra 6 yards might be beneficial (Phase 1) is the only phase where topping the meters and killing mobs prematurely is useless.
If you want to say that the extra 6 yards is beneficial in Naxx, then there's only one fight that the extra range makes things easier (Heigan), but Naxx is old tier, and Ulduar is all that matters at the present time.
Now the only encounters in Ulduar where I could see you trying to argue the value of +3/6yards range would be:
IC, where you would want to be in a Rune of Power and be in range, but the only time you could do this without being within 30 yards of range would be if you sat under a Rune of Power placed under one of the two other adds, which would mean a DPS loss travelling toward the Rune and and OUT of the rune to A) avoid AOE lightning and B) move into a new Rune of Power. Not to mention you'd be out of range to spellsteal the shield.
Mimiron, where you'd like to be at 36yards in Phase 1, however you have as much time as you could possibly need to set up prior to the pull, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Originally Posted by c0nscript
Try hardmode Mimiron.
Mimiron HM, where you start basically against the wall, however, you move as a group, and as such, spreading out 6 yards from your raid to cast a couple of fireballs just to have to move those 6 yards again shortly anyway is pointless. All this would give you is a net total of 6 yards less movement.
General, where the only reason you would be at a distance greater than 30 yards would be to stand in a saronite vapor, but I fail to understand why you would want to cast while in a saronite vapor when all the shadow crashes should allow you to be within 30 yards.
Originally Posted by c0nscript
especially Yogg-Saron.
Yogg-Saron, moving from Crusher to Crusher, this is the only one where you could argue that an additional 6 yards could be beneficial, HOWEVER you're moving CONSTANTLY during the entire phase to be in range of each crusher, and at times those extra 6 yards that you didn't have to run for the first Crusher, you may have to run to get to the next Crusher. So in this case, one is moving for a large fraction of the phase, however the 6 yards does not provide a 100% benefit, at which point I would argue that other talents with more raw +DPS would be much more beneficial than a talent that provides utility that is only half as useful. (See SotM)
Please enlighten me on the benefits of having +3/6 yards of range in Ulduar.
No, Deconstructor doesn't count as there's no reason to not be within 30yards of range the entire fight.
No, Iron Council doesn't count as 30 yards is more than enough to avoid the AOE lightning while casting.
No, Kologarn doesn't count because the entire encounter situates you within 30yards of Kologarn.
No, Auriya doesn't count because you're essentially in melee range the entire fight.
No, Hodir doesn't count because the NPCs don't put toasty fires/moonlights 36 yards away. Also, being out of range of picking up the Storm Power debuff off of a raid member is stupid.
No, Mimiron doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately.
No, Thorim doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately. Also, try staying maxrange on hardmode Thorim and see what good that does you.
No, Freya doesn't count because there's no reason to be at max range for the trio, no reason to be maxrange on the lashers, and no reason to be maxrange with the Conservator as there are MORE THAN ENOUGH mushrooms to stand under. Not to mention that "helping a little" doesn't make the extra 6 yards sound very useful.
No, General doesn't count because ranged will be within ~30yards of General so any shadow crashes will also be within ~30 yards of General.
No, Yogg-Saron doesn't count because the only phase where those extra 6 yards might be beneficial (Phase 1) is the only phase where topping the meters and killing mobs prematurely is useless.
Yes for Mimiron. I only completed his hard mode on 10man difficulty, but even there it gets hectic sometimes in p4. If the fires go bad or the tank has to pull out, it simply good to have more range.
Yes for Freya, since Eonars Gifts sometimes spawn far away from the raid.
And most definitly yes for Yogg-Saron. P1 it is nice, but in p2 it really shines. Less movement is more dps. I definitly can start casting earlier, if I get into striking range faster.
All the rest of the encounters are easy anyway, therefore only the encounters that benefit from range matter. This means you should skill Flame Throwing.
Originally Posted by clemroh
[*]Yogg-Saron, moving from Crusher to Crusher, this is the only one where you could argue that an additional 6 yards could be beneficial, HOWEVER you're moving CONSTANTLY during the entire phase to be in range of each crusher, and at times those extra 6 yards that you didn't have to run for the first Crusher, you may have to run to get to the next Crusher. So in this case, one is moving for a large fraction of the phase, however the 6 yards does not provide a 100% benefit, at which point I would argue that other talents with more raw +DPS would be much more beneficial than a talent that provides utility that is only half as useful. (See SotM)[/list]
If you move in a circle, because of spawn luck (or unluck?), this might be true, but as soon as getting to the next Crusher means turning around, the mage without range will run 12yards extra. Furthermore, more range means higher chance that the next target is range, so you don't have to move.
If you wish to present a compelling argument as to why range talents should be optional, you need to present and discuss the opportunity costs associated with obtaining them.
Why this discussion is taking place inside the FFB thread, I dont know. Arcane and Arcane/Fire are the ones who actually have semi-decisions to make, specifically with regards to Student of the Mind VS Flame Throwing/Incanters Absorption.
I do not like the current design Blizzard has for range talents as a Fire/Arcane mage. Range is meaningful, it's important. Considering giving it up for Student of the Mind is like playing a game of lesser-evils. You make the decision, but was it a fun decision to make? Before you answer that, make sure you really know the value of the 3 points you put into the SoTM talent.
Two points of SoTM is only worth around .53% dps. In a 5 minute fight I would only need about 1.58 seconds of movement saved by flame throwing to compensate for the loss of spirit. Yes, with a very well oiled raid group I could see dropping flame throwing, but with a less than perfect group the ability to compensate for bad positioning is far too valuable.
A single botched spell or forced reposition due to range in an encounter is enough to give flame throwing an advantage over the second two points in SotM with my gear, and I suspect this is true with all gear levels. More important is that in situations where SotM has an advantage (no movement), it's a marginal improvement. However when flame throwing has an advantage (shadow crash at 40 yards), it can make a significant impact.
Please enlighten me on the benefits of having +3/6 yards of range in Ulduar.
No, Deconstructor doesn't count as there's no reason to not be within 30yards of range the entire fight.
No, Iron Council doesn't count as 30 yards is more than enough to avoid the AOE lightning while casting.
No, Kologarn doesn't count because the entire encounter situates you within 30yards of Kologarn.
No, Auriya doesn't count because you're essentially in melee range the entire fight.
No, Hodir doesn't count because the NPCs don't put toasty fires/moonlights 36 yards away. Also, being out of range of picking up the Storm Power debuff off of a raid member is stupid.
No, Mimiron doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately.
No, Thorim doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately. Also, try staying maxrange on hardmode Thorim and see what good that does you.
No, Freya doesn't count because there's no reason to be at max range for the trio, no reason to be maxrange on the lashers, and no reason to be maxrange with the Conservator as there are MORE THAN ENOUGH mushrooms to stand under. Not to mention that "helping a little" doesn't make the extra 6 yards sound very useful.
No, General doesn't count because ranged will be within ~30yards of General so any shadow crashes will also be within ~30 yards of General.
No, Yogg-Saron doesn't count because the only phase where those extra 6 yards might be beneficial (Phase 1) is the only phase where topping the meters and killing mobs prematurely is useless.
If you want to say that the extra 6 yards is beneficial in Naxx, then there's only one fight that the extra range makes things easier (Heigan), but Naxx is old tier, and Ulduar is all that matters at the present time.
Now the only encounters in Ulduar where I could see you trying to argue the value of +3/6yards range would be:
IC, where you would want to be in a Rune of Power and be in range, but the only time you could do this without being within 30 yards of range would be if you sat under a Rune of Power placed under one of the two other adds, which would mean a DPS loss travelling toward the Rune and and OUT of the rune to A) avoid AOE lightning and B) move into a new Rune of Power. Not to mention you'd be out of range to spellsteal the shield.
Mimiron, where you'd like to be at 36yards in Phase 1, however you have as much time as you could possibly need to set up prior to the pull, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Mimiron HM, where you start basically against the wall, however, you move as a group, and as such, spreading out 6 yards from your raid to cast a couple of fireballs just to have to move those 6 yards again shortly anyway is pointless. All this would give you is a net total of 6 yards less movement.
General, where the only reason you would be at a distance greater than 30 yards would be to stand in a saronite vapor, but I fail to understand why you would want to cast while in a saronite vapor when all the shadow crashes should allow you to be within 30 yards.
Yogg-Saron, moving from Crusher to Crusher, this is the only one where you could argue that an additional 6 yards could be beneficial, HOWEVER you're moving CONSTANTLY during the entire phase to be in range of each crusher, and at times those extra 6 yards that you didn't have to run for the first Crusher, you may have to run to get to the next Crusher. So in this case, one is moving for a large fraction of the phase, however the 6 yards does not provide a 100% benefit, at which point I would argue that other talents with more raw +DPS would be much more beneficial than a talent that provides utility that is only half as useful. (See SotM)
Hi wall of text, all of this is neat, but with all due respect, you haven't even done many of these bosses on hard mode.
Saying flame throwing is useless is like saying run speed to boots is useless, it is wrong and it reeks of someone speaking without having any experience. In the end, like many people have stated, 3/3 student of the mind is an extremely small dps increase in most cases, nothing a good mage couldn't make up for anyway.
Flame throwing is incredibly useful on many of that fights that you so broadly generalized. Range on Mimiron can most certainly become an issue in phase 4 as you may at time be cut off by rockets, fire, a frost bomb, or a spin up. It can help you get to trees and/or roots on hard mode freya that would otherwise not be within your range. How about the phase 3 to 4 transition on One light in the Darkness when you have a few corruptor's still up and you want to be with your raid so you don't get gibbed by incoming immortal guardians. How about on hodir when you just came out of a flash freeze, one of the important NPCS is pinned up against a wall, and you still want to be in that moonlight in toasty-fire range so once you break the NPC out you can get right back on the boss.
Also, no one really cares about easy mode bosses, you could walk in there wiith RP gear on with any talent points you want and kill it, that's why it's easy mode. The only bosses that you have any sort of point on would be Thorim and Vezax, and I'm usually frost for hard mode Vezax and I could argue that flame throwing could increase your dps while in the tunnel, as well as the times that you need to move behind other groups to dodge wall lightning.
Giving up range talents is a valid strategy for every raiding mage, nobody will dispute that. But, the real discussion should be about whether the tradeoffs were worth it, and whether the decisions were meaningful/fun to make. Currently this boils down to rants about the stale Student of the Mind - and the situational/gimmicky (with Disc priest) Incanters Absorption.
The situation can only be improved by Blizzard taking another design pass at the talent trees, which is not likely to happen until the next expansion. Until then, this is what we have been given to play with.
Yes for Mimiron. I only completed his hard mode on 10man difficulty, but even there it gets hectic sometimes in p4. If the fires go bad or the tank has to pull out, it simply good to have more range.
Originally Posted by Hilbs
Range on Mimiron can most certainly become an issue in phase 4 as you may at time be cut off by rockets, fire, a frost bomb, or a spin up.
Having personally only experienced phase 3 of firefighter, I cannot agree nor disagree with either of you here. Though I can tell you that having the extra range in any of the other 3 phases is not necessary at all. (And even less necessary in any of the easymode phases, with the obvious reason being 'easymode'.)
Originally Posted by testthewest
Yes for Freya, since Eonars Gifts sometimes spawn far away from the raid.
Originally Posted by Hilbs
It can help you get to trees and/or roots on hard mode freya that would otherwise not be within your range.
Yeah, the gifts are very often out of range (usually more than a simple 6 yards), but Phase1 of Freya isn't mana intensive at all and blinking to a tree shouldn't be an issue at all. However, I will agree that when the Conservator is up, that extra range could prove to be beneficial in those cases where the gift is further than 30 yards away from the closest mushroom.
As for the roots, unless for some reason your group is spread out across the entire zone, there's no reason why you shouldn't be in range of AT LEAST one iron root, at which point by the time one iron root goes down, the other will have gone down before you would have been able to finish a cast anyway.
Originally Posted by testthewest
And most definitly yes for Yogg-Saron. P1 it is nice, but in p2 it really shines. Less movement is more dps. I definitly can start casting earlier, if I get into striking range faster. If you move in a circle, because of spawn luck (or unluck?), this might be true, but as soon as getting to the next Crusher means turning around, the mage without range will run 12yards extra. Furthermore, more range means higher chance that the next target is range, so you don't have to move.
Originally Posted by Hilbs
How about the phase 3 to 4 transition on One light in the Darkness when you have a few corruptor's still up and you want to be with your raid so you don't get gibbed by incoming immortal guardians.
It has virtually no benefit in Phase1 as getting extra casts off as the mob is being pulled to the center simply risks prematurely killing the mob. And for those that don't pull the mob to the center, you'll be within 30 yards range anyway.
As I previously stated, the only period where I could see flame throwing to be most beneficial IS in this phase HOWEVER I believe that users of Flame Throwing overestimate this benefit as a large fraction of this phase involves you running around anyway, not to mention that if the next mob is in front of you and not behind you, you would have to run the 6 yards that you 'saved' anyway. Yes, if it's behind you, you would technically run ~12 yards less (assuming no blinking during this encounter) however when you're running around for ~200 yards (vague estimate), an 'extra' 12 yards really doesn't make much of a dent.
Now you mention the transition from phase 3 to phase 4... however to my knowledge there is no phase 4, so I'm going to assume you meant the transition from phase 2 to phase 3. A rhetorical question: if you're trying to stay with your raid, and your raid is in range (usually 30 yards), why WOULDN'T you be in range?
Originally Posted by Hilbs
How about on hodir when you just came out of a flash freeze, one of the important NPCS is pinned up against a wall, and you still want to be in that moonlight in toasty-fire range so once you break the NPC out you can get right back on the boss.
If you have NPCs out of range of the raid, you're doing it wrong. And if you're in a toasty fire, then you shouldn't need to be breaking out the mage. I'll agree that the six yards COULD prove beneficial because, yes, sometimes the NPC is JUST over 30 yards away, but there's 2 NPCs you should be aiming for and odds are if one's not in range (whether over 30 or over 36 yards away) the other one will be.
Originally Posted by Hilbs
Also, no one really cares about easy mode bosses, you could walk in there wiith RP gear on with any talent points you want and kill it, that's why it's easy mode. The only bosses that you have any sort of point on would be Thorim and Vezax, and I'm usually frost for hard mode Vezax and I could argue that flame throwing could increase your dps while in the tunnel, as well as the times that you need to move behind other groups to dodge wall lightning.
The reason why I posted easy mode bosses was simply to illustrate its value throughout Ulduar. Yes, the easymode bosses can be done blindfolded with one arm tied behind your back, but they're still part of Ulduar so I figured I'd list them anyway. Also, if you're going to state that "easy" encounters don't matter, then whether or not 6 yards is beneficial in Hallway is really a non-issue as the hard part isn't initiating hard mode. Also I can assure you that you ARE within 30 yards of Thorim even while dodging the wall lightning.
Perhaps I was too one-sided in my original reply to make +3/6 yards seem completely useless, however I believe that the DPS gain from SotM or even the survivability from Magic Absorption to be more beneficial because a set DPS increase is much more useful than the highly variable Flame Throwing, with, as can be seen, is only up for debate on three encounters in all of Ulduar. And as for Magic Absorption, a dead DPS is 0 DPS. (However, again, only applying to a handful of encounters...)
Of course, without Flame Throwing... Fireball, Living Bomb, and Pyroblast are indeed at 35 yards, but Flamestrike/Scorch are both at 30 yards, and Fire Blast is at 20 yards. I suppose you could argue that you don't keep the Scorch debuff up, you never use Flamestrike, and Fire Blast is highly situational. Fair enough, and Frostfire Bolt equally has the odd setup with Frostfire Bolt being 40 yards and everything else having their respective bases (making for the awkward 40 yard FFB and 20 yd FB).
I value maximum range on a number of encounters, from Freya, Kologarn, and Ignis, to Yogg-Saron, Iron Council, etc.
It's less distance I have to travel to attack a tree on Freya; it's more distance I can stay from Kologarn and still drop Flamestrike on adds; it's less distance I have to travel if I'm breaking adds on Ignis; it's more range I have against adds in phase 2 on Yogg-Saron; it's more room I have to continue DPSing during Lightning Tendrils on Iron Council or stand in Rune of Power.
I'm not even looking at hard modes -- I haven't really done too many hard modes. While Thorim hard mode is an obvious example of where range isn't important at all, there are ample situations where range is indeed useful. You can argue that it isn't but I don't really see the alternatives as anything better, as Tyrian has mentioned. Two points in Student of the Mind is 20 DPS for me. For a best in slot mage, they're looking at ~56 DPS for 2 points, and 80 for 3 points. The Mp5 gained is minimal -- we're talking in the 20s range. For best in slot mage, 2 points is 18 Mp5, starting with 873 spirit.
For me, it's a 12 Mp5 gain, starting at 615 spirit. Is that really worth 6 yards?
How did we get side tracked from talking about Flame Throwing vs Blast Wave?
I know I didn't disappear that long, but in just 2 days we lose track of the topic?
In all the talking that's been done, and my personal experience, the time to run the 6 yards is less than .5seconds. Which with all the examples used, can be at maximum, about a 100dps gain if all situations work out perfectly, but can be a 0 dps gain.
While you guys can continue to argue the benefits of Flame Throwing over Student of the Mind, I've decided that Blast Wave and 1 point in Blazing Speed is a better overall boost to my play. It's the original topic I suggested, and there are benefits to having Blast Wave that you guys have determined to be ineffective, but I would go out on a limb that you guys have played without BW for long enough now that you've adapted to life without it, so hearing its possible benefits has become something of a 'bad spec' ideal.
The one thing that probably sealed the deal of me taking Blast Wave over every other option is the ability to toss mobs in and out of situations. I can toss Stormcaller Brundir out of Rune of Power, quicker than a tank having to move him out, and safer than counterspelling him. Plus I can do it as I'm running into the Rune of Power so there is no real loss of dps time, and all mobs would be within range of each other on that fight so Flame Throwing is not game breaking.
Of all discussion that has gone on as of lately, we've become overly concerned with maximizing dps, while losing sight of the idea that not all fights are stationary, so our maximum potential dps is not always achievable, so wouldn't utility be useful?
Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.
Perhaps I was too one-sided in my original reply to make +3/6 yards seem completely useless, however I believe that the DPS gain from SotM or even the survivability from Magic Absorption to be more beneficial because a set DPS increase is much more useful than the highly variable Flame Throwing, with, as can be seen, is only up for debate on three encounters in all of Ulduar. And as for Magic Absorption, a dead DPS is 0 DPS. (However, again, only applying to a handful of encounters...)
I never said anything against magic absorption, any mage doing hard modes that doesn't use magic absorbtion is doing it wrong, it's incredibly crucial to our survivability, especially on Firefighter, Algalon, and Thorim. Just about the only hard mode fight i don't take magic absorption for is one light in the darkness, since it simply isn't needed and extra mana regen is far superior. I really can't see myself ever taking 3/3 sotm, it just doesn't seem worth it compared to the other talents you could take instead. Maybe when i have a lot more spirit and given the t9 two piece bonus, but not now.
Also, if you look at my fireball spec, I only have one point in flame throwing, and i actually go frostfire with 3/3 perma 3/3 imp blizz 1/1 glyphed blast wave and 0/0 flame throwing for freya hard. It's just simply in my opinion the best spec for freya, good aoe, and good single target damage as well. It also lets me use my healthstone instead of a mana gem and i can simply pop an evocate between the fourth and fifth set of adds and be perfectly fine on mana for the duration of the encounter. I do use a stoneblood flask for freya hard as well (I'm an alchemist) to make up for not having magic absorbtion. I was just pointing out that saying flame throwing is not useful at all is a misnomer, i wish i had the points to pick up that other point in flame throwing in my fireball spec but i just don't. Gotta have MA for most fights and with the way our mana is right now i feel like i need to have 2/3 meditation as well.
Originally Posted by Hate Monkey
How did we get side tracked from talking about Flame Throwing vs Blast Wave?
I know I didn't disappear that long, but in just 2 days we lose track of the topic?
In all the talking that's been done, and my personal experience, the time to run the 6 yards is less than .5seconds. Which with all the examples used, can be at maximum, about a 100dps gain if all situations work out perfectly, but can be a 0 dps gain.
While you guys can continue to argue the benefits of Flame Throwing over Student of the Mind, I've decided that Blast Wave and 1 point in Blazing Speed is a better overall boost to my play. It's the original topic I suggested, and there are benefits to having Blast Wave that you guys have determined to be ineffective, but I would go out on a limb that you guys have played without BW for long enough now that you've adapted to life without it, so hearing its possible benefits has become something of a 'bad spec' ideal.
The one thing that probably sealed the deal of me taking Blast Wave over every other option is the ability to toss mobs in and out of situations. I can toss Stormcaller Brundir out of Rune of Power, quicker than a tank having to move him out, and safer than counterspelling him. Plus I can do it as I'm running into the Rune of Power so there is no real loss of dps time, and all mobs would be within range of each other on that fight so Flame Throwing is not game breaking.
Of all discussion that has gone on as of lately, we've become overly concerned with maximizing dps, while losing sight of the idea that not all fights are stationary, so our maximum potential dps is not always achievable, so wouldn't utility be useful?
There is no reason to ever use unglyphed blast wave, not only does it cost more mana, but citing something like the example you used from iron council, well, your tank just needs to move faster. In an ideal world, you want to move brundir or molgeim just slightly out of the rune of power so your melee can make use of the rune of power as well, so why would you throw him halfway across the room with blast wave? And you have blazing speed, but no run speed to boots? :/
I think people are forgetting the fact that there are plausible scenarios where you can't just move that six more yards for range without flame throwing. Iron Council (HM), for example, depending on where the Stormcaller Brundir tank moves him out of Rune of Power, and how your ranged situate themselves in an arc around him, you, as a mage, and *having* a range of fourty-one yards often times have to sit in the back, at least thirty-six for scorch. So in this scenario, if there isn't room to move directly forward six yards (no flame throwing) due to static disruption, you may have to run to one of the ends of the aforementioned arc of players, this would be an incredible loss in DPS.
A similar scenario occurs in phase one of firefighter, I'm not sure how *your* group does it, but our strategy involves squeezing people as closely together as possible, but not so near that napalm overlaps two people, near the front of the room after the first flame suppressant. This is done to control the location of fire for phase two. Often times there would not be a reasonable place to move (keeping in mind the task at hand; fire control) with only a thirty six yard range.
Similar scenarios can occur in phase two, three, and four of the same fight depending on the movement of other players as well as fires.
Now, granted this fight is nerfed into the ground and the DPS requirements are no where NEAR what they were pre-nerf, so the your decisions on movement aren't as considerable as they were, for a guild learning the fight, it can make a difference.
This discussion has become completely inane, but to try and move past it, here's my take.
If you're progressing on the various Ulduar hardmodes, tailor your spec to the fight. Trying to generalize things with a one-size-fits-all spec is kind of silly, because there isn't one (until you're comfortably on farm, anyway). As mentioned in previous posts - sometimes the extra range is crucial, sometimes MA is crucial, sometimes you really need to focus on mana. The only relevant point in regards to your spec is: are you maximizing your potential to help your guild beat each new encounter?
This discussion has become completely inane, but to try and move past it, here's my take.
If you're progressing on the various Ulduar hardmodes, tailor your spec to the fight. Trying to generalize things with a one-size-fits-all spec is kind of silly, because there isn't one (until you're comfortably on farm, anyway). As mentioned in previous posts - sometimes the extra range is crucial, sometimes MA is crucial, sometimes you really need to focus on mana. The only relevant point in regards to your spec is: are you maximizing your potential to help your guild beat each new encounter?
Couldn't have said it any better myself. I'm constantly respeccing, it's kind of insane actually. Arcane with pushback resist for 4 tower FL before it got nerfed, different arcane spec for killing life sparks on XT hard, fireball with MA for steelbreaker, thorim, firefighter. frostfire for hodir, arcane for kiling stars on algalon. There is so one size fits all spec for hard mode ulduar, you are 100% on the ball with that. You have to adapt to the fight / how your guild chooses to strategize for the fight.
I always considered talents below the 0.5% dps increase per talent point falling under personal preference. As far as I'm concerned I would never play a fire spec without 2/2 burning soul, and with the way trees are now, I would never seriously consider playing a fire spec without 2/2 flame throwing.
Also I do think many players strongly exaggerate fight respeccing. Ultimately its a matter of how much sub-optimal dps are you willing to accept vs time lost to respec. An FFB spec could be used for 100% of fights in ulduar and perform decently in all scenarios, however it will never shine under any context.
For what its worth, I did every single hard mode using either fireball or ffb spec, with no single significant change on the spec that was made specifically to cater to one given fight. The only (major) detail here is that I was never specced for the rare but occasionally needed imp blizzard; that was tasked to other mages. But other than that I felt like I never had a real incentive to constantly change specs as most mages seems to agree upon is a necessity.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
For what its worth, I did every single hard mode using either fireball or ffb spec, with no single significant change on the spec that was made specifically to cater to one given fight. The only (major) detail here is that I was never specced for the rare but occasionally needed imp blizzard; that was tasked to other mages. But other than that I felt like I never had a real incentive to constantly change specs as most mages seems to agree upon is a necessity.
I can't imagine pre-nerf Mimiron without MA.
Similarly, because I was still running my MA spec all of Tuesday this past week, I ran hard OOM on XT due to lacking the regen talents and getting "lucky" on crits (which means unlucky on mana.) Before XT was nerfed most recently, I wouldn't have wanted to go OOM -- it could've been the difference between a kill and failure for us.
So.... yes, I'd agree it's probably exaggerated even for hardmodes.....now. Especially as guilds have more gear from 10/25 farming in between. It hasn't always been though, with MA/regen being a pretty needed switch-via-respecs as needed (regen for pre-nerf XT, MA for pre-nerf Thorim and pre-nerf Mimiron, regen again for Yogg)
I always considered talents below the 0.5% dps increase per talent point falling under personal preference.[...] But other than that I felt like I never had a real incentive to constantly change specs as most mages seems to agree upon is a necessity.
I guess the old Manly that said he'd pay 5000 gold for a 10dps increase is dead!
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
I always considered talents below the 0.5% dps increase per talent point falling under personal preference. As far as I'm concerned I would never play a fire spec without 2/2 burning soul, and with the way trees are now, I would never seriously consider playing a fire spec without 2/2 flame throwing.
Also I do think many players strongly exaggerate fight respeccing. Ultimately its a matter of how much sub-optimal dps are you willing to accept vs time lost to respec. An FFB spec could be used for 100% of fights in ulduar and perform decently in all scenarios, however it will never shine under any context.
For what its worth, I did every single hard mode using either fireball or ffb spec, with no single significant change on the spec that was made specifically to cater to one given fight. The only (major) detail here is that I was never specced for the rare but occasionally needed imp blizzard; that was tasked to other mages. But other than that I felt like I never had a real incentive to constantly change specs as most mages seems to agree upon is a necessity.
Time lost to respec? It's not very hard to hearth, click to unlearn my talents, click talented, and take my summon back.
Did you get launched up top on hard mode FL? I'd imagine that being a nightmare getting a quick shutdown before the nerf without 5/5 stability and arcane power.
In all, its a combination of how much you want to min/max (FFB instead of Fireball on hodir for example), combined with the strategies that your guild uses, like the way we have mages killing life sparks on XT. Before the most recent round of nerfs on XT, we had really good success using 3 arcane mages to kill the sparks. Now after the nerfs, 2 can handle it with lots of time spent dpsing the boss as well.
Respecing a neccessity? Nah. Good practice to ensure your raid runs as efficiently as possible? I think so.
And like Kyth said, the current state of our talent tree where we are forced to either increase dps or gain mana regen is painfully irritating. It's really high time that evocate got changed to not being one of the most archaic mana regen abilities in the game. Also, with the replenishment nerf it's going to be even worse. I really hope they do something to address it.
Please enlighten me on the benefits of having +3/6 yards of range in Ulduar.
•No, Deconstructor doesn't count as there's no reason to not be within 30yards of range the entire fight.
•No, Iron Council doesn't count as 30 yards is more than enough to avoid the AOE lightning while casting.
•No, Kologarn doesn't count because the entire encounter situates you within 30yards of Kologarn.
•No, Auriya doesn't count because you're essentially in melee range the entire fight.
•No, Hodir doesn't count because the NPCs don't put toasty fires/moonlights 36 yards away. Also, being out of range of picking up the Storm Power debuff off of a raid member is stupid.
•No, Mimiron doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately.
•No, Thorim doesn't count as there is more than enough space and time for you to position yourself appropriately. Also, try staying maxrange on hardmode Thorim and see what good that does you.
First of all, Fire Blast is good ability to use while moving and haven't LB Pyro, 26 yards vs 20...
•Yes, Deconstructor - you can continue your dps out of raid with "Searing Light" debuff on you, or you can use some extra Fire Blast on Sparks while... mm run away with Gravity Bomb.
•Yes, Iron Council - what will you do when Rune of Power is out of range? Wait some sec when tank bring add to melee? or if use blink from rune of death a little far from boss
•Yes, Kologarn - some Fire Blast when running out from room + Pyro if proc
•No Auriaya - ok
•Yes, Hodir - you have to move too much on this encounter, I use Fire Blast on every movement to have more pyro procs, and try to be not in 20 range from boss +_+
•Yes, Mimiron - there is space, but wasting time for positioning - you lose more dps then 2 points in "spirit" benefit (for fb spec ex)
On Thorim FK h.m. i took Magic absorption instead of range, and looking fraps after fight I have noticed loss of dps when I was out of range.
P.S. before I considered that range does not matter too, I was wrong
As I previously stated, the only period where I could see flame throwing to be most beneficial IS in this phase HOWEVER I believe that users of Flame Throwing overestimate this benefit as a large fraction of this phase involves you running around anyway, not to mention that if the next mob is in front of you and not behind you, you would have to run the 6 yards that you 'saved' anyway. Yes, if it's behind you, you would technically run ~12 yards less (assuming no blinking during this encounter) however when you're running around for ~200 yards (vague estimate), an 'extra' 12 yards really doesn't make much of a dent.
Perhaps I was too one-sided in my original reply to make +3/6 yards seem completely useless, however I believe that the DPS gain from SotM or even the survivability from Magic Absorption to be more beneficial because a set DPS increase is much more useful than the highly variable Flame Throwing, with, as can be seen, is only up for debate on three encounters in all of Ulduar. And as for Magic Absorption, a dead DPS is 0 DPS. (However, again, only applying to a handful of encounters...)
You are theorycrafting wrong. You're basicly dismissing talents because they don't matter much. Well, neither does SoTM.
Saying stuff like "but you run 200y anyway, so why does 12y less matter?" is like saying "but I have 60% crit anyway, so why does 0.5% more crit from SoTM matter?" It's meaningless and provides no usefull input.
Let me requote an important post here, and I suggest you read it again.
Originally Posted by Extrudedcow
Some quick numbers pulled from rawr based off my gear:
Two points of SoTM is only worth around .53% dps. In a 5 minute fight I would only need about 1.58 seconds of movement saved by flame throwing to compensate for the loss of spirit. Yes, with a very well oiled raid group I could see dropping flame throwing, but with a less than perfect group the ability to compensate for bad positioning is far too valuable.
A single botched spell or forced reposition due to range in an encounter is enough to give flame throwing an advantage over the second two points in SotM with my gear, and I suspect this is true with all gear levels. More important is that in situations where SotM has an advantage (no movement), it's a marginal improvement. However when flame throwing has an advantage (shadow crash at 40 yards), it can make a significant impact.
That's 1.58 seconds of extra running in a 5 minute fight, which makes flame throwing a higher DPS increase. That's not some nifty utility only talents, that's added dps. I can bet that in any movement fight you will be able to save 1.58 seconds.
Not to mention you're increasing your area to spread out by something like 42% by having those 2 talents, also alot more valuable in a few fights, for survivability (of yourself and your raidmembers) and DPS.
Not to mention the added range on Fireblast, which might increase your mobility damage if it means you get in range.
07/04/09, 10:16 PM
