The proc rate on both trinkets is 10% per cast, so you can use (cast_time) / (0.1) to get the average seconds before it procs. Assuming a 2.5s frostfire bolt cast, this is 25 seconds on top of the 45 second internal cooldown, which is definitely not negligible. Since the proc lasts 10 seconds and the cooldown is 70 seconds on average, you would divide by 7 instead of 5. Making this change, the Embrace is 148.5 and the Forge Ember is 116.9.
At any rate, the [Sundial of the Exiled] is wholly better than the [Forge Ember] (save for maybe the beginning of the fight depending on the mechanics of the procs).
While I fully appreciate what you are saying, I've never had to wait that long for the trinket to proc again, and I was hinting at using both of the above trinkets (although I guess expecting people to read my mind on that one was a bit much )
Guess it means the target dummies need to take a beating again
While I fully appreciate what you are saying, I've never had to wait that long for the trinket to proc again, and I was hinting at using both of the above trinkets (although I guess expecting people to read my mind on that one was a bit much )
Guess it means the target dummies need to take a beating again
Providing data on the proc rate might help. It's possible it's better than a 10%, and that would change the calculations. But as things stand, with the currently available data: it's worse, sadly.
Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But is it top 5? No.
Providing data on the proc rate might help. It's possible it's better than a 10%, and that would change the calculations. But as things stand, with the currently available data: it's worse, sadly.
Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But is it top 5? No.
All the trinkets have a cooldown of 45 seconds (tested in game), and the listed proc rates of most of them are "10% proc trigger spell".
Exception is [Dying Curse] with a 15% proc chance, but also a 45s cooldown.
You can look up proc chances pretty reliably in wowhead data. Cooldowns are usually 45s, look for comments.
However, I believe that this counts every spell, not just spell casts.
For example, a Scorch crit would count as 5 spells (Scorch, Ignite, 3 ISC stacks), giving it a 41% (=1-0.9^5) chance to proc it.
By all means, I didn't do thorough tests. But I did test the Sundial trinket with Scorch, counting the necessary casts to proc it.
It was only 5 tests, getting it to reproc within 1-5 casts every time the cooldown was up.
It's by no means representative, but it's a decent indication that it could work that way.
Especially since Dragon Soul/DM:C have always worked that way.
If self-buffs like Slow Fall proc those trinkets, it might be that Brain Freeze/Fingers of Frost also proc them.
Just some food for thought, it might make proc trinkets better than we currently think.
Last edited by Roywyn : 12/02/08 at 10:30 AM.
Reason: Trinket information
The fact that the sundial works off things like crafting and eating is further evidence in favour of Roywyn's post.
That trinket you linked is new to me. How does it rate as available trinkets go? If it is indeed possible to ramp it fully on 2 scorch casts then it might go a long way towards making frostfire more competitive on trash (where it normally fails quite hard).
The fact that the sundial works off things like crafting and eating is further evidence in favour of Roywyn's post.
That trinket you linked is new to me. How does it rate as available trinkets go? If it is indeed possible to ramp it fully on 2 scorch casts then it might go a long way towards making frostfire more competitive on trash (where it normally fails quite hard).
You mean It's been around for a while, a normal Sartharion-25 drop. It doesn't require any drakes alive, it's just normal loot.
It's best-in-slot for the next couple of tiers. Sadly for us as well as for 5 other classes.
It works with any cast aas it's supposed to work for healers as well.
Which means you can stack it to 10 with Slow Fall and always keep it up even through waiting (that was tested explicitly).
The multiple spells from scorch/etc. is a pretty interesting point, and I hope it works that way. I was mostly directing my comment at the gentleman pushing the Ember, which is a *good* trinket, it's just not *top five,* which was the relevant discussion. Breaking the top five in to a perfect 1/2/3/4/5 will be interesting, of course. I'll (hopefully have time to) run some tests on the sundial and its proc (as well as multi-proccing off of scorches/etc.) after work tonight, hopefully.
Hi i was wondering what kind of rotation you guys use? Currently i use:
Living Bomb
Scorch
Scorch
Frostfirebolt
x
x
x
living bomb
scorch
x
x
x
(x= forstfirebolt until living bomb explodes)
Hi i was wondering what kind of rotation you guys use? Currently i use:
Living Bomb
Scorch
Scorch
Frostfirebolt
x
x
x
living bomb
scorch
x
x
x
(x= forstfirebolt until living bomb explodes)
That is a sufficient enough rotation, although I have ~ 1.3 seconds in between my third FFB and LB explosion so I tend to scorch once in between. By doing the Improved Scorch debuff is prolonged and more overall damage is dealt.
Inoko, maybe my post was a little misleading as I didn't intend for the ember to suddenly become top 5 material mandatory for everyone, I just personally hold it in higher regard than the maexxna trinket, as with timing I believe it could be a dps loss on some occasions (of course untested on mage, but I did have the trinket on my elemental shaman on beta, and the proc could be a touch annoying at times with rotations) From post calculations (also showing a little fish in a big pond :p) its seems me passing may have been a mistake, but I'm not overly disheartened since one piece of gear isn't exactly going to make or break me this early in the expansion
When MI fades (not when the images die), you get X+Y threat back.
That has always been my understanding of the ability, and is reinforced by multiple posts in this thread.
This is exactly how I have seen it work. Last night for me was a perfect example of this on Malygos, I popped mirror images (and other cooldowns) not very long before a vortex and the images expired just before I landed again. I'd over-aggroed the tank with the dps I'd done whilst mirror images were up (before this I was a little bit of a margin behind the MT), so I immediately got a big jump in threat and went past the tank and he turned and hit me when he landed (and breathed on the raid).
You could almost say its like having a BoP thrown onto you, temporary threat removal for you (in the case of a BoP, immunity from physical damage only), but once it has expired you get all of the threat back (including the threat you did whilst under the threat removal effect).
Can anyone test if 1/3 and 2/3 ranks of EP double dip FFB?
If they do, then a 11/51/9 build might be viable.
Instead of cookie cutter 0/53/18, you gain 80 resist all/6% clearcasting/6% crit if 2 mages do this. However you lose 6% dmg to FFB, 2% less mana via EP and icy veins.
Let me be clear, 6% more crit to everything is better than 6% damage to FFB, especially with hotstreak.
I'm at 11% hit from gear right now, if I get 12% then 1 point in EP if it double dips caps me. The choice is an extra cast via icy veins vs 80 resist all.
3 pieces of Tailoring craft + Mage armor + DK Frost Auro + Dr00d Buff = 406 Frost Res (Tested last night). There is also Paladin buff which I haven't counted it yet. Ofc some of them can overwrite others (not stacking) but I have seen 406 FR with the ones above on me. You DON'T need any more res in Saphiron. Over 400 is stated as "excellent" resistance in WoW tooltip.
If your choice depends on icy veins vs 80 resist all, go for Icy Veins without thinking. Less hit cap, less mana, more damage, more haste. I wouldn't chose 3% crit over all these.
P.S. And if you are having mana issues, get your self a Glyph of Mage Armor and pop up Mage Armor before you oom. It solves the problem. (Ofc you sacrifice +5% crit from Molten Armor with Glyph)
I have a question on the importance of haste vs crit. I did a fight vs Gluth last night, and we wiped multiple times trying to figure out his first decimate... but my dps appeared to fluctuate widely. I ranged from 1800-3000 dps! (Curse of Elements was up). When I looked at recount, I saw that 1800 dps wielded ~20% crit, while the 3000 dps had 50% crit. From that, it seems to confirm what others have said in that FFB is rather spiky and I'm put at the mercy of RNG. But... is there a way to 'fix' that?
The above observation makes me want to prioritize: hit until capped > Spellpower > crit > haste. And a quick look at Rawr shows something along those lines, where 10 crit = 5.44 dps, and 10 haste = 5.06 dps. But my question is whether there's a "cap" to haste that I would be interested in anyway. Perhaps a haste # that allows a LB > FFB rotation so that FFB fits comfortably inbetween LBs? Part of my issue w/ gear decisions right now is choosing between similar amounts of crit and haste, or maybe in scenarios where Rawr rates the haste higher, but I would like more crit. Or is there anyway method to "fix" this spiky damage rather than just stacking crit?
I'd like to hear how you want to build up a haste set that allows more optimal living bomb uptime given the fact that scorch refresh and hot streak procs are bound to fluctuate the cast cycle. Theres the obvious (make it near a 1.5s multiplier but its still somewhat messy. I wouldn't gear haste specifically in order to try and optimize living bomb uptime.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I think its worth it a bit to sync them with trinkets if it doesn't affect your total # of cast times in the fight.
They gain a percentage of your +damage at cast time, not rescaling as it changes (that is, if your trinket wears off) as Water Elementals do. Each image's Frostbolt will increase by about 10% of your +damage gains.
So if, for instance, dying curse proc and you use a mana gem with 2pt7, then you're going to have them doing 100 extra damage per frostbolt. Keep in mind 3 of them are casting each frostbolt, so thats a gain of like 300 damage every couple seconds . . . I wouldn't really pass that up.
Anyways, a couple of questions for people to ponder:
1) If I have a hotstreak proc, is it worth it to hold on to that proc until its time to refresh Living Bomb, and then do Frostfire Bolt --> Living Bomb --> Hotstreak Pyro (in order to avoid potential ignite munching) or should I just use it right away (in order to avoid a possible second hot streak proc before you use the first one thus wasting the proc)? This is, in essence, a question of "WHich is greater" between "The percent chance of proccing hotstreak while hotstreak is already up before Living bomb, at a random point in its remaining duration, ends -- multiplied by the difference between a Pyroblast and half of a Frostfire bolt". Compared to "The percent chance of both an instant pyroblast and the Frostfire bolt cast directly before it both critting -- multiplied by the ignite damage lost as a consequence of only the Pyroblast's ignite actuallly occurring.
And then, for bonus points, figuring out if there's a duration at which when Hot Streak procs it becomes a better idea to save it vs use it right away and what that remaining duration on living bomb might be. For instance, perhaps at 10 seconds left it's a better idea to use it right away but at 3 seconds left it makes more sense to save it.
I know that's a confusing way of putting it, but hopefully someone understands what I'm saying.
2) What is the potential value of Molten Shields as a raid talent? Many Frostfire builds seem to have spare points that people tend to place into talents of questionable value such as impact and Frostbite -- is it possible that Molten Shields could be a significant source of dps in *some* encounters? Will it, for instance, deal its damage EVERY time I take damage from Sapphiron's Auara or does it not respond to aura dps?
1) I've been wondering this myself. Personally, I haven't seen any ignite munching since I've started looking for it. After a boss fight if I add up my crit damage I can calculate the rough amount of ignite damage that should have been done. It's usually very close to the actual amount of ignite damage dished out. I'm really not sure how big of a problem ignite munching is because I just haven't really seen it yet. Tuesday I'll test it out on Loatheb. If I use hot streak as soon as it procs on that fight and I don't see any munching, then I'll probably just stop worrying about it all together.
2) I don't believe molten shields procs on any kind of periodic damage, like AoE auras and dots. Personally I'm just hating molten armor's damage in general now since it's bugged and procs ignite; but I guess it messing up sheeps is a problem mostly limited to 5-man instances.
Also, I've never used scorchio, but ClassTimer works really well for me. You can select which timers you want and which you don't want and can even enter your own custom spell durations to track. As for knowing when things proc, I still haven't seen anything better than PowerAuras. Whenever hot streak procs I have it so a big red skull appears over my character...makes it pretty obvious.
I'd like to hear how you want to build up a haste set that allows more optimal living bomb uptime given the fact that scorch refresh and hot streak procs are bound to fluctuate the cast cycle. Theres the obvious (make it near a 1.5s multiplier but its still somewhat messy. I wouldn't gear haste specifically in order to try and optimize living bomb uptime.
Sorry, let me rephrase. My question was more if there was a general guideline to haste that you consider when picking gear, or do you just go w/ the pure numbers that simulators, such as Rawr, generate. It's sort of the difference between practical & theory I'm asking.
And haha, in that fight with ~20% crit, my hot streak proc'd a total of 5 times in something like 5 mins...
Also, just noticed something for any of you who use Rawr to simulate stuff... the latest version's change log includes, "Added ghost hit for Frostfire bolt in Mage." I'm mentioning that cause everytime I try to optimize stuff now, it keeps targeting a 11% hit rate for me, rather than 14%. At least that's how I'm interrupting it!
hey guys,
this is my first post on EJ... thanks for having me.
my mage is my only character. i take pride in researching my character and trying out different things.
question on FFB spec. i currently spec'd 0/52/19 --> no points in world in flames and 3 points in imp blizzard instead of frost channeling.
did i make an error in doing this. i read somewhere that the 10% threat reduction does not apply to FFB, also, i've only been running 10 man naxx so far and have run into zero mana problems with no t7 and sometimes not even evocating. last night i blew away the rest of the dps on most fights. i was just wondering, is my rational for this correct? blizzard to me seems to be the best aoe we have at range and i thought adding the slowing effect etc would be a good thing. i took blast wave and dragons breath for purely close range and "oh crap" situations. is this hurting my dps that much? any and all feedback please.
basically if anyone has experience with the 25 man naxx and suggests that frost channeling is a better option due to mana issues then i'd love to know. i figure 2 pc t7 would solve that but i simply just dont know yet.
i tried /scorchio and /scorchio2 to no avail. I don't see any icon on my minimap or fubar. At this point I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do to set it up.
You may wish to try Needtoknow. Set up the bars so that Targets debuff is Improved Scorch and Winter's Chill. You may even overlap the bars on top of each other, so that the one that IS active on your target atm is displayed. No lag on its update either, unlike Scorchio.
I also use Needtoknow to monitor Hot Streak and Living Bomb. Allows most efficient use of a priority cycle (i.e. Always cast HS Pyro first, then decide whether to cast a new LB first or reScorch (often the latter 2 fall within 2secs of each other, Needtoknow makes the judgement call oh so easy).
You may wish to try Needtoknow. Set up the bars so that Targets debuff is Improved Scorch and Winter's Chill. You may even overlap the bars on top of each other, so that the one that IS active on your target atm is displayed. No lag on its update either, unlike Scorchio.
I also use Needtoknow to monitor Hot Streak and Living Bomb. Allows most efficient use of a priority cycle (i.e. Always cast HS Pyro first, then decide whether to cast a new LB first or reScorch (often the latter 2 fall within 2secs of each other, Needtoknow makes the judgement call oh so easy).
No actually scorchio2 is perfect once you know they put the config in the 'normal' spot (that most mods dont use). The only problem scorchio2 suffers is really minor -- the number of stacks of scorch on the target is written after the name of the target, which is messy because it keeps changing place (differing target name lengths). Not to mention its kind of hard to read. If only it was written in the format #scorchstacks# - #mobname# it would be a huge improvement (very easy to hack in). Ideally though the icon for scorch would show the number of stacks on it.
-------------
Also, about the flaky crit rates I was getting, I found the source.
The talent Master Poisoner from mutilate rogues (?) gives 15% raid-wide crit per rogue.
Yes, 100% raid-wide crit rate is doable.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
(before someone mentions it, yes I am double posting, but hours later)
So has anyone tried 3/3 shatter ffb builds ? Sancus did and is getting good results. I think I'll give a shot to
(0/51/20 - 3/3 shatter, no DB/bwave, 0/2 flame throwing, 3/3 WiF, 1/3 frost channeling, 1/3 imp. blizz) http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...h=000000000000
And then theres another point of contention for that build specifically. Is it worth it to cast flamestrike at all, given that more time spent blizzarding means more frostbites ?
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I'm looking for some kind of macro so that pyroblast only casts when hot streak proc is up. I'm lagging quite a lot lately and certainly during bloodlusts I find myself casting pyroblasts instead of frostfire bolts because of lag and crit streaks.
Another thing I'm not quite sure about is whether I should gear for 8% or 11% hit. Or something in between? Missing scorches, living bombs and pyroblasts sure is annoying but getting 80 hit itemvalue for spells that that do +/- 30% of your dps seems a waste.
I'm looking for some kind of macro so that pyroblast only casts when hot streak proc is up. I'm lagging quite a lot lately and certainly during bloodlusts I find myself casting pyroblasts instead of frostfire bolts because of lag and crit streaks.
Blizzard broke the ability to make these kinds of macros a long time ago, so no, there is no macro that will check for Hot Streak before casting Pyroblast while in combat.
Praetorian: I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>. That didn't go over too well. Sebudai: Imagine a combination of Life Grip, Death Grip, Disengage, Typhoon, and Thunderstorm. It would be like the Large Hadron Collider of WoW.
11/29/08, 10:25 PM
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