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Old 06/11/09, 7:02 PM   #616
Mythanar
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Lightbringer
Thanks Kavan, that explains it; it also explains why slight variations in gear make this bug disappear.

Perhaps averaging the stat value over a wider interval (based on relative DPS change as a result of, for example, +20 spirit) for capless stats and stats far from cap is a more robust approach. Regardless, now that this bug is known and documented (even if only on EJ forums), and is verified to only affect "Relative Stat Values", it is not nearly that annoying.

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Old 06/11/09, 8:30 PM   #617
Garlicsauce
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Hey guys, fairly new to Rawr and have to say it really is stunning how much information you can get with such ease.

Just one thing I have encountered with my current gear, I am at 13.91% hit and need 14% for the hit cap, but Rawr doesn't see this as being an issue. The optimizer doesnt advise any regems/gear changes to get me to the cap.

I understood that until Hit Cap, Hit is a large way ahead of any other stat so why is Rawr not advising me to cap it out?

My gut feeling is that the tiny percentage - .09% isn't big enough to warrant the dps loss elsewhere that a regem etc. would cause.

Is this the reason? Any input here?

Regards.

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Old 06/11/09, 9:10 PM   #618
Shaewyn
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Mage
 
Malygos
Originally Posted by Garlicsauce View Post
Hey guys, fairly new to Rawr and have to say it really is stunning how much information you can get with such ease.

Just one thing I have encountered with my current gear, I am at 13.91% hit and need 14% for the hit cap, but Rawr doesn't see this as being an issue. The optimizer doesnt advise any regems/gear changes to get me to the cap.

I understood that until Hit Cap, Hit is a large way ahead of any other stat so why is Rawr not advising me to cap it out?

My gut feeling is that the tiny percentage - .09% isn't big enough to warrant the dps loss elsewhere that a regem etc. would cause.

Is this the reason? Any input here?

Regards.
Quite simply, this is because you probably don't have any upgrades that can provide you with such a small amount of hit.

I have this as well - I'm 2 hit rating under the cap right now, but to gain those two hit, I would lose 10 spellpower. Rawr calculates (correctly) that 10 spellpower gives me more DPS than 2 hit does.

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Old 06/12/09, 9:58 AM   #619
cbags
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Mage
 
Garona
If you run the optimizer and set an additional setting requiring that your hitcapped, it will adjust accordingly, and gove you a set that is capped.


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Old 06/12/09, 3:45 PM   #620
Garlicsauce
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Originally Posted by cbags View Post
If you run the optimizer and set an additional setting requiring that your hitcapped, it will adjust accordingly, and gove you a set that is capped.
But in this case that would be a DPS loss?

That was what confused me. I always thought the rule was quite clear, that hit cap is ALWAYS more important.

I have no problems with ignoring the small gap I have to the hit cap, as long as Rawr is correct in advising me to.

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Old 06/12/09, 4:00 PM   #621
 nathanbp
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Mage
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Garlicsauce View Post
But in this case that would be a DPS loss?

That was what confused me. I always thought the rule was quite clear, that hit cap is ALWAYS more important.

I have no problems with ignoring the small gap I have to the hit cap, as long as Rawr is correct in advising me to.
Usually the smallest increment you can increase your hit by is 8 hit rating from a [Veiled Monarch Topaz]. If you are less then 8 hit rating from the cap, it's likely for it not to be a dps increase to switch one of your gems from Runed to Veiled. If you hover over your hit percentage in Rawr it will tell you how much hit rating short of the cap you are. I would trust the Optimizer in this case.

Originally Posted by Crowl View Post
If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.

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Old 06/12/09, 4:24 PM   #622
cbags
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Mage
 
Garona
I was just saying that if absolutely felt the need to have it hit cap you, you could


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Old 06/15/09, 5:25 AM   #623
Omnia
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Mythanar View Post
Perhaps averaging the stat value over a wider interval (based on relative DPS change as a result of, for example, +20 spirit) for capless stats and stats far from cap is a more robust approach.
I've suggested this to the devs before, but their general recommendation was to look at the Item Budget chart instead (since the delta there is 10 item points, instead of 1 stat point). That said, I still think the chart names are misleading: an uninformed user will likely look at the "stat value" chart thinking it represents macro-level stat scaling, even though it does not. For that purpose, maybe we could use a new chart with stat deltas of ~30-50 :-)

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Old 06/15/09, 10:05 AM   #624
Light4
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
Rather than computing the difference of dps(stat+1)-dps(stat) it should be better to use the partial derivative of the dps function which should have a smaller mesh size.

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Old 06/15/09, 11:24 AM   #625
Astrylian
Rawr
 
Astrylian's Avatar
 
Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
You guys are making quite alot of assumptions.

Omnia, it's not +1 stat, it's +/- however much makes it change in value,
Light4, there is no 'dps function'.

I've added a minimum range that it'll track over to +/- 10 for the next release. It'll still do the change point detection on top of that.

Rawr!

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Old 06/15/09, 11:29 AM   #626
Muphrid
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Light4 View Post
Rather than computing the difference of dps(stat+1)-dps(stat) it should be better to use the partial derivative of the dps function which should have a smaller mesh size.
Well, if one can compute the symbolic function itself, one has all the necessary information right there, but ultimately, the disclaimer Rawr has not to use relative stat values in and of themselves is valid: why bother with these broad generalizations when Rawr itself can compute total damage done (and DPS) swiftly and accurately for any gear combination (and find the ideal gear combination out of a finite set of gear choices, to boot)?

When most stats were linear with caps it made sense to write out stat equivalence formulas. Nowadays, however, GCD caps complicate haste, Hot Streak complicates crit, and spellpower has never been all that well-behaved (an explicit formula for the %DPS gain from spellpower for rotations with more than one spell aren't pretty). The amount of useful information to be had in formulas has diminished significantly, and I think trying to express the values of stats through approximation is simply inappropriate given that we have the power to compute them exactly.

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Old 06/16/09, 12:48 PM   #627
Dorvan
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Garlicsauce View Post
But in this case that would be a DPS loss?

That was what confused me. I always thought the rule was quite clear, that hit cap is ALWAYS more important.

I have no problems with ignoring the small gap I have to the hit cap, as long as Rawr is correct in advising me to.
No, it's not that cut and dry, such guidelines are always rules of thumb. When you read something like "always reach hit cap before anything else" what it is saying is that if you are choosing between an amount of hit and an amount of some other stat that are in the same ballpark, the hit is better as long as you're below hit cap. It should be pretty obvious that there inherently must be some tradeoff ratio at which gaining the other stat is better than gaining hit.

For me, for example, that ratio between spellpower and hit is about 3:2, so that 3 SP is worth about them same to me as 2 hit rating. The thing is that gemming can always allow me to make a tradeoff favorable to hit (since there the ratio is 19:16) up to a granularity of 8 hit rating, so going for hit will always win out via gemming. once you're less than 8 hit rating from cap, however, those favorable gemming ratios become less favorable, tipping the balance of the tradeoff. If you have to give up 10 SP to gain 2 hit that a ratio of 5:1, *far* worse than than 3:2 tipping point for me. Thus, that situation favors sticking with the spellpower and remaining 2 hit under cap.

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Old 06/16/09, 12:58 PM   #628
Daytrader
Banned
 
Gnome Mage
 
Mannoroth
Hard mode Vezax

What is the best way to set up Rawr to mirror the Hard Mode Vezax fight? Specifically the multipliers and the mana restrictions.

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Old 06/16/09, 1:02 PM   #629
Garlicsauce
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Originally Posted by Dorvan View Post
No, it's not that cut and dry, such guidelines are always rules of thumb. When you read something like "always reach hit cap before anything else" what it is saying is that if you are choosing between an amount of hit and an amount of some other stat that are in the same ballpark, the hit is better as long as you're below hit cap. It should be pretty obvious that there inherently must be some tradeoff ratio at which gaining the other stat is better than gaining hit.

For me, for example, that ratio between spellpower and hit is about 3:2, so that 3 SP is worth about them same to me as 2 hit rating. The thing is that gemming can always allow me to make a tradeoff favorable to hit (since there the ratio is 19:16) up to a granularity of 8 hit rating, so going for hit will always win out via gemming. once you're less than 8 hit rating from cap, however, those favorable gemming ratios become less favorable, tipping the balance of the tradeoff. If you have to give up 10 SP to gain 2 hit that a ratio of 5:1, *far* worse than than 3:2 tipping point for me. Thus, that situation favors sticking with the spellpower and remaining 2 hit under cap.
Yeh I've gotten my head around it since I posted, thanks for the help, it still feels weird seeing "Miss" pop up the odd time on Boss fights but once that DPS loss is being made up elsewhere I can look past it

Thanks for the help.

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Old 06/16/09, 4:51 PM   #630
MyrddinE
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Dumbel View Post
heya, I was just running the optimizer and it kept telling me to replace my 32sp jc gems with the 19sp ones. I don't really understand this.
It doesn't know it's allowed to use the 32sp JC gem. Go to Edit Gem Configurations, and turn on the JC gem sets.

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