Rawr.Mage - Page 52

Hinalover · 09/09/09, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by hypetech

I seem to be seeing some strange behavior with the "Build Upgrade List" option. When I make my list, I am seeing the horde and alliance versions of the same item (same ilvl version) showing different DPS values. I am also seeing this difference for the Royal Moonshroud Bracers for example, one of the crafted bracers of which there are only one version. On further investigation of my upgrade list, it seems that it is switching the gem in the upgrade list, and listing some items twice because of the different values the gems cause. I haven't seen the upgrade list builder do this before, so I wasn't sure if it was intended behavior, or what had changed to cause it.

For example, my list shows the bracers as a 55.3 DPS upgrade with a sp/spi gem, and then again as a 23.13 DPS upgrade with a sp/hit gem. I am attaching my character's xml file and my saved upgrade list for reference. Attached as zip since XML attachments don't seem to be allowed.

I had pointed this out just before 2.2.15 was released and they have a semi-fix for this. This morning they checked in a fix so that any item (whether it's alliance or horde) that was marked as selected, will be shown in the item chart.

hypetech · 09/09/09, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Are you using a high thoroughness? Results are never guaranteed with the optimizer (just extremely likely), so with a low Thoroughness, to see the same item change in value between multiple runs of the upgrade list. Two items with identical stats having different upgrade values is just a more obvious example of that happening. I haven't gotten to look at your file yet, though, will look when I get home.

Yes, I use max thoroughness along with the re-gem and re-enchant options if those make a difference. I've always used it that way.

Kavan · 09/09/09, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

I had pointed this out just before 2.2.15 was released and they have a semi-fix for this. This morning they checked in a fix so that any item (whether it's alliance or horde) that was marked as selected, will be shown in the item chart.

Actually that fix was for some other bug that had the same symptoms, I didn't get a chance to look into your case yet.

Kavan · 09/09/09, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by hypetech

For example, my list shows the bracers as a 55.3 DPS upgrade with a sp/spi gem, and then again as a 23.13 DPS upgrade with a sp/hit gem. I am attaching my character's xml file and my saved upgrade list for reference. Attached as zip since XML attachments don't seem to be allowed.

This is an interesting case. As Astrylian said the root problem here is the random nature of the optimizer and thoroughness. Even though you have thoroughness at max the thoroughness for build upgrade list is artificially lower than the one when used for normal optimization (10 times lower). I actually preferred it the old way when they both used the same scale.

In your particular case for the lower evaluation it tries to compensate for lack of hit on new bracers by switching some gems to sp/hit while in the better case it realizes that it can replace your belt with the one with hit and gain more overall. When I use the actual max thoroughness as used for the optimizations I always get the max result so this is definitely the case of thoroughness limiting quality of result.

For a workaround if you need high quality results and are willing to wait for them you can try using the build upgrade list in batch tools which uses the same scale for both optimizations and upgrades. Just load a single character in and run the upgrades (I think performance wise progressive upgrade list will be fastest but I haven't tested with single character before).

Devilspit · 09/09/09, 7:40 PM

Mage
Fire
Combustion now also increases your critical strike damage bonus with Fire damage spells by 50% when activated, now lasts until you have caused 3 non-periodic critical strikes with Fire spells.

new ptr build

tommynt · 09/10/09, 4:53 AM

I wonder a bit why RAWR values spirit so high - looks like spirit is even a good stat on gear nowadays -
for example when comparing:
Etched Signet of the Kirin Tor
[Etched Signet of the Kirin Tor]
74 SP
43 haste
41 crit

to
Band of the Invoker
[Band of the Invoker]
89 SP
50 haste
50 spirit

the spirit on the Band should convert to 25 crit rating
so
+ 14 SP
+ 7 Haste
- 16 crit

That is definatly a little gain, but RAWR rates the Band 40 points/dps higher then the Signet for a gain of something like half a gem slot

RAWR also rates hit very high - like double as high as haste/spellpower untill cap.

I like using rawr a lot but these 2 facts look a little bit weired to me and I aint sure anymore if I can trust RAWR

It is also a bit annoying that with the new Crusader loots most Items are double listed, once with an Alliance name and once with a Horde name - is there a option to have only Alliance loots shown for me?
I allready disabled Items being listed with different gems which helped the multi listing Problem a bit.

Please excuse grammatical errors, I am no native speaker.

Maje · 09/10/09, 4:55 AM

Having picked up the [Reign of the Unliving] I checked some of the damage it does. This is not a rigorous test, however it seems to benefit from CoE and uses your crit rate (not certain whether fire crit or gear crit), Playing with Fire and CSD also seem to effect it.

Also all the fight specific buffs the ones I've seen are Storm Power, Nether Power, Icehowl stun.

Rawr doesn't seem to take into account target debuffs (enabled/disabled CoE in rawr etc.), also the proc damage seems very low compared to real fight scenarios.

lunamoonraker · 09/10/09, 5:06 AM

Originally Posted by tommynt

It is also a bit annoying that with the new Crusader loots most Items are double listed, once with an Alliance name and once with a Horde name - is there a option to have only Alliance loots shown for me?

Do you have the latest release? From Release Notes 2.2.15;

Rawr will now load the faction-specificity of an item from the Armory, and will only show items available to your race's faction. Note that there are still a few ilvl258 items that aren't on the Armory, so there are still a few items in Rawr which don't have faction data, but the vast majority of items do.

Works fine for me (few exceptions as it states and considering the different ilevel versions of each)

Astrylian · 09/10/09, 5:10 AM

Tommynt, everything you described sounds like it's working correctly. Comparing [Band of the Invoker] to [Etched Signet of the Kirin Tor], you missed the fact that it's also a significant Int boost as well, and the Spr benefits from stat multipliers, such as Kings.

Hit really is very highly valued, until capped.

If you use the latest version, most items are not double listed; only items which Rawr can't tell which is which (due to not being on the Armory yet) are double listed.

Kavan · 09/10/09, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

Rawr doesn't seem to take into account target debuffs (enabled/disabled CoE in rawr etc.), also the proc damage seems very low compared to real fight scenarios.

CoE not affecting it was an oversight, I'll have it fixed for next release. Can you check if the proc is affected by Fire Power talent?

Maje · 09/10/09, 7:34 AM

Fire Power doesn't, but it seems that Playing with Fire does. Also on a 5 minute fight rawr seems to model the damage at around 6.5k with 8 hits where is on Algalon 5 minutes fight the damage the proc did was 52.5k on 20 hits. The crit rate (not sure what rawr uses) was around the crit rate of my spells though the sample size is to small to say for certain.

Edit: also it seems changing the fight length doesn't change the amount of damage done by the proc in rawr.

Not sure how much that'll help but with 50 procs the damage was as follows (boss):
hit: 1647(R: 364) - 2355 (avg - 2048.3 some damage was partially resisted)
crit: 2563(R: 367) - 3539 (avg - 3143.3 some damage was partially resisted)

Normal fire build, with CoE on the target.

Xentropy · 09/10/09, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by Kavan

CoE not affecting it was an oversight, I'll have it fixed for next release. Can you check if the proc is affected by Fire Power talent?

I posted this in the item sets thread several days ago, but basically it's affected by CoE (+13% spell damage), playing with fire (+3% spell damage), and sanctified ret (+3% all damage). Crits are also affected by CSD (154.5% crits). My crit rate appears to be the expected rate based on what shows for spell (not fire) crit on the character sheet, plus debuffs like imp scorch. It is subject to the usual +3 level target spell resists as well.

Kavan · 09/10/09, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Maje

Fire Power doesn't, but it seems that Playing with Fire does. Also on a 5 minute fight rawr seems to model the damage at around 6.5k with 8 hits where is on Algalon 5 minutes fight the damage the proc did was 52.5k on 20 hits. The crit rate (not sure what rawr uses) was around the crit rate of my spells though the sample size is to small to say for certain.

Edit: also it seems changing the fight length doesn't change the amount of damage done by the proc in rawr.

Not sure how much that'll help but with 50 procs the damage was as follows (boss):
hit: 1647(R: 364) - 2355 (avg - 2048.3 some damage was partially resisted)
crit: 2563(R: 367) - 3539 (avg - 3143.3 some damage was partially resisted)

Normal fire build, with CoE on the target.

I've found the problem you're having. It's just a display issue, the by spell tooltip isn't showing all the damage from the proc, I'll have it fixed. For a full raid buffed with fixed CoE I'm getting average damage at about 2700 in Rawr which seems to be in line with your data.

Maje · 09/10/09, 7:31 PM

Yep the damage is shown properly now, only one issue due to how rawr models the proc ie. damage per crit and not every 3 crits the number of proc hits is actually multiplied by 3. Not important.

3.2.2 Combustion according to rawr is a wooping .3% dps increase, unless it's not moddeled properly; I used v.36594 .

swiss · 09/11/09, 4:00 PM

Ok after looking at the new rawr. I noticed a option in buffs/potions. That allows you to enable "double pot trick". What is this? I have never noticed this in prior releases.