In practice this is true, you learn from experience per fight what ratio you are using, and you can get your timing pretty accurately using addons like TimeToDie+TimeToOom. However, remember that this is the Rawr.Mage thread, the model which traditionally sets itself apart from other models by calculating the optimal ratio of 2 spell-cycles. In that context, presuming Rawr mechanics are correct and you fill in fight length and other fight parameters correctly, then you should be trusting Rawr to tell you the ratio between the 2 cycles and by extension the stat ratios for the cycles together, rather than apart. Remember than each fight is different and Rawr as it stands now can only model single target fights (with/without movement).

Furthermore, even though I've just argued against it, I'm fairly certain you can already model a pure ScLBPyro fight and a pure FBLBPyro fight using Rawr. For example, you could check 'disable mana sources' and set a long fight time to get your scorch rotation; and maybe set a low 'cost multiplier' to allow a pure fireball fight. Remember to disable cooldowns or pick an appropriate fight length so that your results aren't skewed by extraneous burst damage.

Related to optimization for Mana, does Rawr currently consider Armor-Switching midfight a viable option for Frost, if the Automatic Armor option is enabled?

The current modeling doesn't consider armor switching, I'll think about adding support for that.

Kavan,

Rawr still seems to push haste on us even after checking Molten armor and unchecking Use Automatic Armor AND reaching 517 haste. Is there a setting we can tweak for the Haste Modifier to help remedy this?

Thanks so much for all of the work you do for all us mages!

If it goes for haste it's because it thinks haste is better. If you can set up two gear sets, one that goes for haste and one for crit, and can argue why the haste one shows too high damage then we can do something about it.

I want to echo what Kavan has said before about the haste "softcap" being a misleading term. I'm seeing a lot of people assuming that it's like the hitcap and you want to avoid any haste from 518 upwards. The fact is that haste is still making your spells cast quicker and lowering your GCD. Considering both scorch and pyroblast! are free and a large chunk of your damage, those get direct benefit. Don't get hung up thinking that haste makes your fireball so much more expensive. There's not as much downside to haste as I think people are imagining.

Which secondary stat is better is also not set in stone; remember that it's a function of your gear. E.g. if you have stacked crit purposely, picked gear preferring crit, then the relative value of haste and mastery increases. In those cases Rawr might start to suggest reforging or regemming away from crit. It doesn't mean that Rawr prefers haste or mastery overall, just for that gem or reforge. You have to consider it in the context of your whole crit-stacked gearset.

As far as I know it values both breakpoints. The difference with previous versions is that there were some improvements made in the modeling so if your only concern is that the latest version gives a different result then trust this result over results from older versions. The nature of breakpoints is that if you're close to either one it's worth skewing your haste to get over it because you get "free" dps. Once you get over the first one haste doesn't lose value and as you get closer to second it becomes worthwile to get over it.

Any thoughts on what the 15% breakpoint corresponds to? The 12.5% one was obvious given the additional LB tick, but I don't recall any discussions root-causing this second one.

15% is from Combustion 2nd extra tick I believe.

Yes , there is another combustion tick on 15% :



(Extract from Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium)

That means the new "soft cap" for combustion is 6.34% to get a new extra tick on raid buff

I have been playing around with this a lot in the last few days, and the tool is showing a result which I find almost hard to believe. I am not sure how to check the calculations behind it (besides my back of the envelope math which i don't think is accurate) I ran the same setup in SimCraft and got different outcomes, which is adding to the confusion.

Basically the 4 trinket options I have are:

DM Card Volcano Darkmoon Card: Volcano - Item - World of Warcraft
Theralion's Mirror (359) Theralion's Mirror - Item - World of Warcraft
Bell of Engaging Resonance (359) Bell of Enraging Resonance - Item - World of Warcraft
Fig Jeweled Serpent Figurine - Jeweled Serpent - Item - World of Warcraft


Rawr seems to be overvaluing the Serpent, showing it is second BiS...until recently it was much farther down the list, where you would expect it vs. 359 level trinkets. In addition, the Bell is rated as only about 50% of the dps as the 372 version. I wouldn't think the difference in stats would make that big of a difference. I did notice that the CS is different for the 2 procs. Is this accurate, or an error in the tool?

The tool is showing figurine/DM Card to be the best combo. Up until a couple of days ago, the tool showed Card/Bell as the best option, and I just ran all the iterations through SimCraft, and it shows Card/Mirror as the best combo!

Any input/insight you could give to this would be greatly appreciated. Character is Aerowynn on Andorhal if needed for testing.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Added links for all trinkets.

Regarding trinkets the first thing to check would be whether the proc rates and internal cooldowns match. If you haven't refreshed your item cache in a while try doing that.

As for Tyrande's Favorite Doll I can't reproduce your problem, when I change arcane damage it changes the value of the trinket. Can you verify you're using 4.0.16.0b version?

After reinstalling Rawr it works. I normally use Rawr offline and the version was an older one.
I remember the LK Rawr version had such a nice update feature. Is it possible to include this with the new one?
Thank you.

I refreshed the cache and it now shows the ICDs as being the same. I am trying to do the math on calculating the values of these trinkets, buti am not sure if I am doing it correctly. I am doing:

For static stat: Stat*relative weight (as listed in fire compendium thread)

For variable stat: stat*relative value*duration/ICD

For example, taking Therallion's Mirror:

321 intellect * 3.7216 = 1194.63
1926 mastery/20 sec 1926*1.3588*20/120=436.17

Total value 1630.8.

Am I totally off base on my math/logic? Thanks.

This assumes the on-proc effect of a trinket immediately procs again when coming off cooldown. You really should also factor in the chance to proc in relation to how quickly you are casting spells able to proc it to determine how much additional uptime is lost by trying to trigger the proc in the first place.

So your math will not provide a precise average value for the trinket, but it may be useful enough for quick comparisons depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

I've been playing around with custome spell cycles a bit and stumbled upon some interresting stuff:


Fistly there is no way to include neither Pyroblast nor Pyroblast! into custome cycles. This results in a significant drop in a significant drop in glyhp of pyroblast's value and weird dmg distributions overall. Hopefully this will be fixed soon
Secondly, adding lb>fire blast>scorch resulted in a whooping ~3k dps gain(~15%), lb>fire blast>fireball even in ~3.3k. This seems quite confusing, since fireblast's dpet is considered lower than scorches' dpet, not to talk about mana costs. Having specced into impact my first thought was "maybe rawr is taking aoe targets into account", but setting the number of aoe targets to 0 results in exatly the same dps. Moreover putting points out of impact doesn't affect dps, so I assume it is not modeled at all (?) The only explaination I could think of were more hot streak proccs due to fire blast's higher crit chance, but glancing at the dmg distributions there were even less pyros casted with costume spell cycles activated.

Why does Rawr sometimes rate gear with spirit as better than items of the same iLevel with two DPS rating stats? Specifically, when I import my toon (Finkum@Frostmourne-US), the i346 shoulders [Kyrstel Mantle] (with spirit reforged to crit, with int+crit gem) are rated slightly higher than the equal iLevel [Mantle of Master Cho] with crit + haste (with any gem).

It can't be the case that the Kyrstel Mantle gives enough haste (with appropriate gem + socket bonus) to reach some sort of breakpoint as the Mantle is consistently rated higher for a number of different haste values.

I enabled the unlimited mana option in case Rawr still thought spirit increased mana regeneration for mages, but although the rating disparity lessened, the Mantle was still rated higher.

Almost certainly that is due to gems. You need a yellow to meet a metagem requirement, I'd guess.

I searched the thread and did not see it mentioned, but when using the Optimizer in rawr hosted on this site, it suggests I use another Jeweled Serpent when I have one equipped already. You are only able to complete the quest to create it once.

It is in the thread, but hidden on page 12. The reason is that Rawr gets its data from Wowhead which shows this item with the "unique" checkbox un-clicked. You can make the item unique yourself by selecting Edit Items from the Options menu, or right-clicking the item in the right-hand panel and choosing Edit.

Edit - Gem issue seems to have fixed itself.

I am also getting vastly different numbers between the web client and the new downloadable alpha. Im not sure exactly why, or what to put in the issue tracker, but the same saved file is showing a 3kish dps difference.

I noticed a dps decrease for my character on the web client too. I found that there is an 'ignite munching' parameter in the Spells & Buffs tab now. Setting this to 0 resulted in a ~3k dps increase for my character.

I'm guessing this is a new feature...