Rawr.Mage - Page 81

mcdubjr · 03/23/10, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Draginclaw

Is there a way to change glyphs manually in the program? Looking to change the fireball one to the 3.3.3 version.

Options->Advanced->Patch 3.3.3

Interesting, Fire is coming out about 90dps ahead of Arcane when I use this option.

Juravieal · 03/23/10, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by mcdubjr

Options->Advanced->Patch 3.3.3

Interesting, Fire is coming out about 90dps ahead of Arcane when I use this option.

Im noticing the same thing, even being 80 over hit in my fire set, and without regemming my arc gems. Going to try it out tonight and see how it goes.

Omnia · 03/23/10, 6:36 PM

Rawr is showing 3.3.3 Fire as 1.5% dps ahead of Arcane in respective 264 BiS gear, fully buffed on a static fight. That said, fights with pauses might favor Arcane due to increased AP/IV uptime %.

The two specs should be close enough now that it will come down to playstyle preference. For me, I'll prefer Arcane for the 40% vs 20% threat reduction, except for LK where Living Bomb is really useful.

forthTelanor · 03/24/10, 6:04 PM

My 2.3.13 version of Rawr doesn't seem to have the stock talent trees to choose from like in past versions. I've tried deleting Rawr and redownloading with no luck. Anyone else getting this?

Astrylian · 03/24/10, 6:21 PM

Accidentally included the default talent specs in v2.3.13. You can just copy the talents.xml file from the data folder of v2.3.12.

Chakhal · 03/25/10, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Omnia

Rawr is showing 3.3.3 Fire as 1.5% dps ahead of Arcane in respective 264 BiS gear

That depends how accurate the model is.

I asked Kavan about how Ignite is modeled in Rawr, apparently it calculates the exact same damage as tooltip i.e. 40%

In reality we often end up with much lower coefficients due to Ignite munching and double resist.
For example: this Lord Marrowgar log

Total fire critical damage: 1141792
(FB, Pyro, LB explosion, LB ticks, MA, Fire Blast, Scorch)

Total Ignite damage (including resisted): 358352

Effective Ignite: 31.38%
(29.78% if we exclude resisted Ignite)

Damage loss: 98365 = 4.94% of total damage

The results are similar on other logs I looked at, with effective Ignite damage between 25 and 32% of total fire critical damage.

To analyze the real potential of fire specs on single target, it would be interesting to have a new variable in Rawr to modify the Ignite coefficient.

EDIT: the above values are not exact. One parameter was missing. See post #1221 for details

smulch · 03/29/10, 2:24 PM

TTW and Empowered fire does not seems to increase pyroblast damage. Is it a tooltip error or did you forget it?

Kavan · 03/29/10, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by smulch

TTW and Empowered fire does not seems to increase pyroblast damage. Is it a tooltip error or did you forget it?

In current live release you need to enable patch 3.3.3 in advanced options.

smulch · 03/29/10, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

In current live release you need to enable patch 3.3.3 in advanced options.

Even when doing this, it doesn't change the tooltip for either of those skills (it does affect the fireball glyph however).

Astrylian · 03/29/10, 10:09 PM

Turning on PTR modes never changes tooltips.

Shaitans · 03/30/10, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Chakhal

That depends how accurate the model is.

I asked Kavan about how Ignite is modeled in Rawr, apparently it calculates the exact same damage as tooltip i.e. 40%

In reality we often end up with much lower coefficients due to Ignite munching and double resist.
For example: this Lord Marrowgar log

Total fire critical damage: 1141792
(FB, Pyro, LB explosion, LB ticks, MA, Fire Blast, Scorch)

Total Ignite damage (including resisted): 358352

Effective Ignite: 31.38%
(29.78% if we exclude resisted Ignite)

Damage loss: 98365 = 4.94% of total damage

The results are similar on other logs I looked at, with effective Ignite damage between 25 and 32% of total fire critical damage.

To analyze the real potential of fire specs on single target, it would be interesting to have a new variable in Rawr to modify the Ignite coefficient.

I wanted to point out the potential disconnect between your last sentence (regarding single target) and the log you posted. The log comes from Marrowgar where, presumably, some of those ignites are being done to the bonespikes. Clearly, the bonespikes will die before ignite finishes its damage. I'd like to be clear in that I agree with your assessment that fire will have less DPS than its theoretical because of the point I just made and perhaps should be something to consider when deciding to go fire vs arcane for a particular fight.

So my question regarding your effective ignite findings is this: What is the actual effective ignite damage on a single-target encounter where presumably ignite would only be loss due to the boss dying at the very end and perhaps the double-resist bug, and if so, how much is lost?

darkprophet · 03/30/10, 1:01 PM

So just wondering beacuse im no math genius, however I'm an exceptional player, now with the 3.3.3 fire buffs, I've heard from both sides, one saying Fireball is better with BiS gear(including 277 and everything except heroic LK weapon) , and others say Arcane is better in the BiS gear, on rawr I tried checking it today, i got a 200dps difference between fireball and arcane in Bis gear. However, I still see most top end mages still raid with arcane, so just to clear things up, when should i go Fireball spec? Or if its always gonna be worse..does anyone have the math to show arcane is better in BiS gear over Fireball, or even some logic because I don't always rely on rawr for all of my decisions.

Arril · 03/30/10, 2:07 PM

Well my logic is simple. Old habits die hard.

When RAWR posits a theoretical 1-2% DPS gain for switching specs, that is assuming perfect play. For myself, pretty much all the progression 10-man raiding experience I have in the last year has been done as Arcane - and just the rust from trying to maximize a fire spec effectively would drop my performance this coming week to a subpar level. Poor play will drop me far more than the 1-2% that a respec might theoretically get me.

I really can't use our heroic 10-man progression runs to try to relearn how to optimize a fire-based playstyle, thus I'll stay Arcane until the theoretical DPS gap is larger than 1 or 2%. Were we farming something, I might take the time to respec and relearn. But for tonight's raid, I'll stay Arcane.

Omnia · 03/30/10, 2:41 PM

Also, keep in mind that there is still some uncertainty about Rawr's modeling of Ignites, whose actual damage it may be overestimating. So, Fire dps may be slightly lower in practice.

seaferret · 03/30/10, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by darkprophet

So just wondering beacuse im no math genius, however I'm an exceptional player, now with the 3.3.3 fire buffs, I've heard from both sides, one saying Fireball is better with BiS gear(including 277 and everything except heroic LK weapon) , and others say Arcane is better in the BiS gear, on rawr I tried checking it today, i got a 200dps difference between fireball and arcane in Bis gear. However, I still see most top end mages still raid with arcane, so just to clear things up, when should i go Fireball spec? Or if its always gonna be worse..does anyone have the math to show arcane is better in BiS gear over Fireball, or even some logic because I don't always rely on rawr for all of my decisions.

I can save you some time and give you a TL;DR, but I don't think that the answer is clear cut yet.

Rawr: Fire is best in BiS
SimulationCraft: Arcane is best in BiS
Magegraf: Fire is best in BiS (with Vontre cautioning us that properly modelling ignite munching would lower fire's predicted DPS in any simulation)

None of these predict a difference greater than around 500 DPS.