General Mage Discussion and Information - Page 3

Sancus · 12/12/08, 9:52 AM

Uhh, why would you use Combustion before the pull in the first place? Use it after you have Scorch up....

Zynix · 12/12/08, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Hoffski

Nothing is stopping you from stacking scorches first, but also nothing is forcing you to pop combustion before the fight even starts. If you wait 3 seconds to pop combustion so you can stack scorches first, then you'll get much more damage from 3 FFB crits than 2 scorch crits and 1 pyro/ffb crit. On boss fights I usually do the following:

1) Cast living bomb while tank aggros and I move into position.
2) Cast scorch twice.
3) Cast FFB until living bomb explodes. While casting, use mirror image.
4) After bomb explodes, pop icy veins and combustion.

This pretty much guarantees all 3 combustion charges will be used for FFBs and does a ton of damage in the first 20 seconds of the fight without pulling aggro.

That does sound like a better way to do it. Though I prefer to pop mirror image along with icy veins and trinket, I could add combustion into that. Whats your reason for using mirror image at that stage?

Enthorn · 12/12/08, 9:55 AM

First ten seconds of the fight should be pretty easy. Throw Living Bomb up, cast scorch twice, blow your cooldowns, and start spamming Frostfire Bolt. Cooldowns (usually in a macro): Combustion, Icy Veins, Trinket (if applicable), Mirror Image. Never go into a fight with Combustion already up. Scorch doesn't crit for 334%.

Some people start out the fight by popping a Haste potion immediately so that the cooldown begins. This works if you know the second when the tank will engage, otherwise you'll just end up using the potion, getting 12-13 seconds of haste buff, and you won't be able to use it later (or even have the option of using a mana potion). I've only had a few fights where I can use a haste potion over a runic mana potion, and I haven't used a haste potion before the pull yet.

You'll want to save your mana gem, it's simply not worth stacking just for the sake of stacking if it means wasting the ~4400 mana you'll be getting back. You should use your mana gem immediately when you can get all of the mana back, though. If it happens to fall on a second cooldown, awesome. Case in point, I just got my 2-piece set bonus, so I can ditch my Serpent-Coil Braid. Unfortunately, both of my trinkets are on use ([Mark of the War Prisoner] and [Tome of Arcane Phenomena]). I've generally been using the second trinket with a mana gem, but I'll be replacing it with [Sundial of the Exiled] soon (spell power will generally always be better for a frostfire build, but there is a certain amount of haste that Rawr will suggest).

Hoffski · 12/12/08, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Zynix

That does sound like a better way to do it. Though I prefer to pop mirror image along with icy veins and trinket, I could add combustion into that. Whats your reason for using mirror image at that stage?

I just use it any time before I blow all my cooldowns so I won't pull aggro.

Kintoun · 12/12/08, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Enthorn

...snip...(spell power will generally always be better for a frostfire build, but there is a certain amount of haste that Rawr will suggest).

Always make sure to constantly recheck stat values in rawr when you add a new piece of gear or re-gem. Rawr always bounces back and forth between haste and crit for me (dramatically).

Herbo · 12/12/08, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Zynix

That does sound like a better way to do it. Though I prefer to pop mirror image along with icy veins and trinket, I could add combustion into that. Whats your reason for using mirror image at that stage?

There is actually a bit of a mechanics reason to pop Mirror Image at the start of a fight. It's not the best aggro dump to use because it just suspends your threat for 30seconds or until your images get gibbed. It is, however, a great way to suspend your initial threat generation so that you can blow your trinkets and cooldowns in that first 10seconds of a fight.

Due to the fact that pulling aggro is related to a percentage of threat, it will be harder to pull aggro the larger the total threat pool is. Even if you look at a fight like Patchwerk that is a stand-n-blow-it fight with tank threat generation upwards of 5k TPS a tricked out FFB mage can get some gnarly crits that will spike their dps and tps through the roof in the first 10 seconds if they were to blow all cooldowns and trinkets.

A tank can easily be sitting in the neighborhood of 50k+ threat after ten seconds but if a mage were to spike a huge FFB > Hotstreak Pyro at around the 6-7.5 second marker they would be riding the fine line of reaching their 130% threat limit. A good tank could still hold them off but it would be a bit of a nail biter. If the tank wiffed a swing in there while the mage got lucky with crits it could go south in a hurry. This whole scenario is dependant upon the RNG so it could get better or worse depending on how both parties perform.

If you look at the first 30seconds of a fight, however, the mage's tps will start to even out after their trinkets and cooldowns start to drop off, and the tank's threat generation will have a chance to match or pull ahead. When your images fade (assuming they live 30s) and all your pent up threat is slammed down you are then dealing with a possible threat ceiling of 195k (130% x 5000TPS x 30s). That's 6500dps (sustained not incremental spikes) you'd have to crank out to pull agro off a 5k TPS tank.

In the end Mirror Image is helpful whenever you decide to pop it but it can really do the most good in my opinion early as possible in a fight allowing you to get the most use out of trinkets and cooldowns for maximum good times.

♦ nathanbp · 12/12/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Herbo

When your images fade (assuming they live 30s) and all your pent up threat is slammed down

Quick point: I'm 99.9% certain that your threat does not return to normal levels for 30 seconds no matter how long your images last (you can see a Nathanbp loses Mirror Image line in your combat log after 30 seconds, even if your images die right away).

Saruk · 12/12/08, 2:31 PM

Rather than write mouse-over macros and use Decursive, for those of you using Grid, the combination of Grid and Clique (Clique : WoWInterface Downloads : Unit Mods) is actually pretty nice. Install Clique and just go into your spell-book then specify any spell you want to cast with a mouse button click on a frame. I use middle mouse for decurse. When the mouse is not hovering over a game frame, the button you use is returned to whatever other use you have it assigned to.

manly · 12/12/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Herbo

There is actually a bit of a mechanics reason to pop Mirror Image at the start of a fight. It's not the best aggro dump to use because it just suspends your threat for 30seconds or until your images get gibbed. It is, however, a great way to suspend your initial threat generation so that you can blow your trinkets and cooldowns in that first 10seconds of a fight.

Due to the fact that pulling aggro is related to a percentage of threat, it will be harder to pull aggro the larger the total threat pool is. Even if you look at a fight like Patchwerk that is a stand-n-blow-it fight with tank threat generation upwards of 5k TPS a tricked out FFB mage can get some gnarly crits that will spike their dps and tps through the roof in the first 10 seconds if they were to blow all cooldowns and trinkets.

A tank can easily be sitting in the neighborhood of 50k+ threat after ten seconds but if a mage were to spike a huge FFB > Hotstreak Pyro at around the 6-7.5 second marker they would be riding the fine line of reaching their 130% threat limit. A good tank could still hold them off but it would be a bit of a nail biter. If the tank wiffed a swing in there while the mage got lucky with crits it could go south in a hurry. This whole scenario is dependant upon the RNG so it could get better or worse depending on how both parties perform.

If you look at the first 30seconds of a fight, however, the mage's tps will start to even out after their trinkets and cooldowns start to drop off, and the tank's threat generation will have a chance to match or pull ahead. When your images fade (assuming they live 30s) and all your pent up threat is slammed down you are then dealing with a possible threat ceiling of 195k (130% x 5000TPS x 30s). That's 6500dps (sustained not incremental spikes) you'd have to crank out to pull agro off a 5k TPS tank.

In the end Mirror Image is helpful whenever you decide to pop it but it can really do the most good in my opinion early as possible in a fight allowing you to get the most use out of trinkets and cooldowns for maximum good times.

You really ought to get your facts straight. Mirror Image 'reduces' your threat for 30s, totally unlinked with your images themselves. It doesn't matter whether they die or not. All that mirror image does, effectively, is normalize your threat over 30s, and due to bugs in it, it forces you to pop MI before you reach 97.75% threat.

As far as I'm concerned, the dps increase from mirror image is abysmally low -- I'd rather save it as a threat management tool rather than try and eek out one potential extra MI cast in a fight. Anyway they do tend to die a lot.

LostnFound · 12/12/08, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by ohnoes

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.

I have been testing not using living bomb on fights like thadius lotheb and patchwerk. And noticed an increase in dps can anyone explain this? Or maybe this will change with living bomb being able to crit and proc hot streaks.

Here is a link to the webstats.

Wow Web Stats

Sorry cant find the wws reports that I used living bomb on these fights.

geonon · 12/12/08, 3:28 PM

I just left Deep Frost for FfB spec based on rec's from here and guild. I understand the importance of getting scorch up to increase crit and not wasting combustion on scorch, but I don't fully get the rotation:

LB > Scorch > Scorch > FfB > FfB > FfB > (once LB explodes) Combustion > Spam FfB

1. Is 2 Scorch's enough to get crit up?
2. Do we still throw in a Instant Pyro when available?
3. When the mob's health is low and FfB cast time is too long, do we spam Scorch until death?
4. Is there any benefit of having fireball on my actionbar for heroics/raids?

Again, coming from Deep Frost, I could always do Ice Lance/Frost Nova(Or Blizzard) when they were low and cast time was a concern. I just don't want DPS to drop because I don't know the new rotation or understand the spec.

I guess this is what I've been using since yesterday and it's been a significant improvement over Deep Frost, but I'm still low on the DPS meter.

LB (as tank begins to pull) > Icy Veins/MI (as tank makes contact) > Scorch > Scorch > FfB > FfB > FfB (LB usually ignites) > Combustion > Spam FfB (until combustion caps) > Rinse and repeat.
Insert instant Pyroblast when applicable and Tome of Arcane Phenomena when Icy Veins expires

Thanks for all of the advice in this thread. I've already learned so much.

Geonon (Noctem Ordeum) - Undead Mage - (US)Terokkar

LostnFound · 12/12/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by ohnoes

Is there ever time you don't want to use living bomb in your rotation? ie. Icy Veins, Haste proc, and Hero

Just started playing my mage again and couldn't seem to find this one within the threads so I figure this is the best place to ask.

Originally Posted by geonon

1. Is 2 Scorch's enough to get crit up?
2. Do we still throw in a Instant Pyro when available?
3. When the mob's health is low and FfB cast time is too long, do we spam Scorch until death?
4. Is there any benefit of having fireball on my actionbar for heroics/raids?

Geonon (Noctem Ordeum) - Undead Mage - (US)Terokkar

1. 2 scorch's should be enough with glyph it stacks it 5times.
2. Yes I always pyro the second hot streak procs unless in the middle of a ffb cast finish the cast. Also if you dont use it right away you might crit with 2 other spells and possibly lose another hot streak proc.
3. Fireblast!
4. Untalented fireball vs ffb glyphed why?

Herbo · 12/12/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by manly

You really ought to get your facts straight. Mirror Image 'reduces' your threat for 30s, totally unlinked with your images themselves. It doesn't matter whether they die or not. All that mirror image does, effectively, is normalize your threat over 30s, and due to bugs in it, it forces you to pop MI before you reach 97.75% threat.

As far as I'm concerned, the dps increase from mirror image is abysmally low -- I'd rather save it as a threat management tool rather than try and eek out one potential extra MI cast in a fight. Anyway they do tend to die a lot.

-90Million threat for 30seconds in my mind was functionally equal to suspending your threat but you are of course right about my use of terms. I totally biffed the mirror images being tied to the threat reduction bit, but wouldn't normalizing your threat over an early 30seconds of a fight be reason enough to utilize it early? The dps increase from the spell itself is completely inconsequential given that they die when they are glared at, but the dps increase from being free from early threat management seemed in my mind to make it worthwhile since the spell does not consume any of your GCD for standard spell rotations.

Granted since it doesn't do anything long-term to your threat table where in a fight you cast it is not going to affect when or if you use invisibilty/pull aggro. Good tanks don't have threat issues in regards to early bombardment these days anyway, but casting it early doesn't hurt more than casting it late in my mind especially if you play with tanks that aren't perfect. Am I totally off base?

morgulhir · 12/12/08, 5:01 PM

I would use this rota to begin a fight as FFB spec (Deep fire)

1. LB when tank pulls
2. Scorch -> Scorch (Glyph of scorch - gives you 3 stacks with 1 cast)
3. FFB spam (and ofc Pyro when HS procs) until LB explodes (for it should not take a tick from combustion with crit)
4. use this macro:
/cast combustion
/cast icy veins
/use 13 (or 14 or a trinket name)
/use <mana gem> just shift+click on your managem when making the macro (place this line in the macro only if 1) You have 2xT7 setbonus 2) you are sure you're not going to get any OOM problems later on)
/cast mirror image (for making sure you won't pull with first crits)
/cast frostfire bolt (optional, you can also just press this macro and FFB button separately)
5. Then just continue 1) keeping scorch up 2) Keeping LB up 3) Pyro on HS -> else, FFB spam

This is cool, as you only press 1 button, and really don't lose any time on clicking the spells 1 by 1.

If your tank doesn't really rock on making aggro, you can use "invisibility" just a few seconds before IM fades, so you'd go lower in threat and even to 0 with 3 sec.

When the fight continues and stuff becomes coming out of CD mana gem comes out of CD before the other spells, if you have mana issues, use it when you can, if not - save it for the next macro-time

manly · 12/12/08, 5:06 PM

It depends on context. Usually threat issues will happen when everyone is equal on threat. This almost always means on the pull, or after an aggro wipe. As far as any other times are concerned, generally you won't run into threat issues, but again, it depends on context. I try and save my MI for when we get double spark during malygos, because thats a garanteed aggro pull otherwise. I try to save MI for AOE. It comes down to how the fight is designed, but making a sweeping decision to always pop MI at the start of the fight strikes me as wholly inedequate for a number of cases. Just going by memory, the list of fights I will intentionally avoid it on the pull is:

-malygos
-razuvious (I often run into threat issues later in the fight for some reason, prob due to tank switches)
-gothik (not that theres a boss on the pull, but I do save it for aoe)
-heigan (debatable, usually the run towards the center platform is enough aggro built up by tanks to make it hard to pull aggro right off the bat, but it can happen later on)
-noth (save for teleports if needed)
-gluth (save for the one-off zombie that whacks you)
-sartharion