Upcoming mage changes

◊ Lord BEEF · 12/10/08, 2:05 PM

New blue post, some pretty significant changes

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Mage changes

The buffs here are designed primarily to make Arcane more competitive with Fire / Frostfire builds in PvE. Because they could end up buffing Arcane in PvP, we are prepared to adjust the damage of say Arcane Barrage if needed, but we want to see these in action on the PTR first.

Mage PvE damage in general is something we are keeping a close eye on. With the recent hunter changes, many of which were nerfs to PvE damage, we want to make sure mages now don’t break away from the pack of damage-dealing specs.

1) Evocation – cooldown reduced to 4 min.
2) Arcane Flows – now also reduces the cooldown of Evocation by an additional 1 / 2 min.
3) Arcane Blast – overhauled. Will now increase the damage of your next Arcane spell by 30%. However using Arcane Blast itself does not consume the charge, but instead increases the mana of your next Arcane Blast, up to a maximum of 3 stacks. You can alternate Blast and Barrage to keep buffing Barrage, or you can build Blast up higher for a heavy mana cost.
4) Torment the Weak – now works with Arcane Blast and does bonus damage to targets afflicted by any kind of slowing effect (e.g. Thunder Clap).
5) Elemental Precision – renamed Precision and now works on all spells.
6) Improved Blizzard – snaring effect reduced to 20/40/50%

Doesn't the torment of the weak change improve frost dps by about 12%? And maybe fire builds that aren't all about frostfire bolt?

Lyer · 12/10/08, 2:10 PM

I don't want to read too much into his post about torment, but doesn't that imply it will work against bosses now? The evocate cooldown is nice and arcane finally got some love. As far as how this pans out, I think I'm going to take the wait and see approach.

◊ manly · 12/10/08, 2:10 PM

I think blizzard gave up entirely on designing a proper mage mana regen mechanic.

◊ nathanbp · 12/10/08, 2:15 PM

I bet the elemental precision change was easier than making FFB not double-dip.

Tyrian · 12/10/08, 2:18 PM

The evocation changes are somewhat amusing. I just wish they'd get rid of the channeling mechanic instead. I would be inclined to believe that these changes are the results of Blizzards internal data showing that a startling amount of mages who raid are Frostfire spec - pushing all their efforts/beta work on other specs like Arcane completely to the wayside.

Grai · 12/10/08, 2:19 PM

The change to arcane blast sounds like a large buff to the tree, but likely still leaves us with the same rotations.

Not to sure what to think about Elemental Precision potentially working with Arcane spells now, but the fact that they're touching it at all likely means that Frostfire double dipping will probably be gone.

The lack of any mention of how spirit effects us is disheartening.

Ivorthemage · 12/10/08, 2:27 PM

1) That arcane blast dynamic, including Torment, looks like a fun playstyle, assuming the dps can hold up. Awaiting the theorycraft...

2) With the implicit 3% nerf to frostfire for elemental precision, and explicit buff to Torment, this looks to put Fire clearly on top, unless arcane somehow sneaks past it. Torment specs were already on top but had the unfeasible option of requiring a Slow Bitch. This mostly removes the need for the Slow Bitch. At worst, the fire mage throws a frostfire bolt in the rotation to keep the slow debuff up. Most likely, you get slow from another source.

3) Arcane will also get some mileage in the frost tree from precision now. The return of arcane frost?

◊ manly · 12/10/08, 2:28 PM

Well let me sort this out, because theres a few big WTF in there.

1) Evocation – cooldown reduced to 4 min.
2) Arcane Flows – now also reduces the cooldown of Evocation by an additional 1 / 2 min.
My own interpretation is that after years of mages complaining about mage mana regen being inappropriate (seriously, having to drink in between every single pull gets tiresome over the months) they still give us proof that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Mana is always either 100% irrelevant, or you go oom and don't even show up on DMs. Any mana class ought to have a spammable mana regen mechanic, ideally one that doesn't destroys your dps too much (ie: like evocation does). But that isn't the route they ever went with for mages (why?), and its not changing anytime soon.

Protip: lowering the evocation cooldown does not makes mages manage mana like the goal supposedly is.

4) Torment the Weak – now works with Arcane Blast and does bonus damage to targets afflicted by any kind of slowing effect (e.g. Thunder Clap).
The same question still persists. Does that means it works on bosses ? If yes, then we still have totally retarded talent that makes no sense at all. I will gladly go 18/53/0, and enjoy the 10% dps boost over my ffb build. Oh yeah, and we're watching mage dps.

5) Elemental Precision – renamed Precision and now works on all spells.
FFB fix. Good thing overall.

6) Improved Blizzard – snaring effect reduced to 20/40/50%
I understand that deep frost/blizzard does ridiculous aoe dps while having awesome control, but shouldn't something be done about it? In any case, a fair change, since it was somewhat preventing future talents to exist because it was somewhat too good at what it did.

As for AOE in general, there is only 3 concepts that should ever exists. Either you have
1- a cast time aoe that is cast on a target (aka seed of corruption) or
2- an instant cast/channel in which you target the ground or
3- an instant cast around you (aka arcane explosion).

Blizzard somewhat is fine because it has a large radius and begins casting right away. However, a long cast on the ground with a small reticle is particularly bad and frustrating/unfun (aka flamestrike).

◊ Lord BEEF · 12/10/08, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ivorthemage

2) With the implicit 3% nerf to frostfire for elemental precision, and explicit buff to Torment, this looks to put Fire clearly on top, unless arcane somehow sneaks past it. Torment specs were already on top but had the unfeasible option of requiring a Slow Bitch. This mostly removes the need for the Slow Bitch. At worst, the fire mage throws a frostfire bolt in the rotation to keep the slow debuff up. Most likely, you get slow from another source.

I'm not sure if frostfire bolt would work as a slow on a boss for purposes of torment.

However, it's working from attack speed debuffs which every single tank has. So essentially you get 12% damage against things that are tanked.

Axolotl · 12/10/08, 2:32 PM

the blue post was just edited:

"3) Arcane Blast – overhauled. Will now increase the damage of your next Arcane spell by 15%. However using Arcane Blast itself does not consume the charge, but instead increases the mana of your next Arcane Blast, up to a maximum of 3 stacks (and a 45% buff). You can alternate Blast and Barrage to keep buffing Barrage, or you can build Blast up higher for a heavy mana cost. "

◊ Lord BEEF · 12/10/08, 2:32 PM

Arcane Blast change clarified:

I'll try to explain this better. It sounds more confusing than it is. Here is the tooltip:

Blasts the target with energy, dealing X Arcane damage. Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the damage of all Arcane spells is increased by 15% and mana cost of Arcane Blast is increased by 200%. Effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 10 sec or until any Arcane damage spell except Arcane Blast is cast.

Consider a few scenarios:

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Barrage
Next Arcane Barrage is 15% more damage.

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Missiles
Each missile in the next volley is 15% more damage.

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast
The second Blast does 15% more damage, but costs 3x normal cost.

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast
The third Blast does 30% more damage, but costs 5x normal cost.

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast
The fourth Blast does 45% more damage, but costs 7x normal cost.

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast
Any Blast beyond the fourth is still at 45% more damage, and still costs 7x. I wouldn't do this.

Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Blast -> Arcane Barrage
The Barrage is 45% more damage, but at the normal cost and consumes the charge so you are back to normal damage after that.

Tyrian · 12/10/08, 2:34 PM

However, a long cast on the ground with a small reticle is particularly bad and frustrating/unfun.

I am genuinely bemused how Flamestrike has managed to survive to this day in its current incarnation, moreso than the Evocation issue. Especially given that its 'frustrating, unfun' mechanics have been detailed so transparently for years now.

alia · 12/10/08, 2:34 PM

Arcane Blast issue has already been clarified. Please delete.

◊ manly · 12/10/08, 2:36 PM

You build it up prior to use cooldowns such as AP.

Lurker · 12/10/08, 2:39 PM

Are we already sold on LB / Burnout over Ice shards?

arch · 12/10/08, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by manly

4) Torment the Weak – now works with Arcane Blast and does bonus damage to targets afflicted by any kind of slowing effect (e.g. Thunder Clap).
The same question still persists. Does that means it works on bosses ? If yes, then we still have totally retarded talent that makes no sense at all. I will gladly go 18/53/0, and enjoy the 10% dps boost over my ffb build. Oh yeah, and we're watching mage dps.

Yes, any kind of slowing effect as in movemenet/attackspeed/castspeed.

This is kinda annoying as we already know 18/53/0 will beat 0/53/18 if you have the mana for it.

alia · 12/10/08, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lurker

Are we already sold on LB / Burnout over Ice shards?

IIRC the TtW/Fire build is for Fireball, not ffb (especially due to spell impact). An 18/45/8 build may be acceptable, though I'm not certain how, as you said, Ice Shards/5 wasted points stack up with LB and Burnout. My guess is "not favorably".

Ivorthemage · 12/10/08, 2:57 PM

The trick to know is that a non-torment fire build was just a smidgen behind frostfire as is. 0-3% in the Rawr simulations I ran across a variety of gear levels (factoring in focus magic's dps increase on another caster). If frostfire could add torment without giving up a thing in frost, it would remain just slightly ahead of fire, but giving up burnout, living bomb, piercing ice, and elemental precision and still keeping up? Not a chance.

Enthorn · 12/10/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by arch

Yes, any kind of slowing effect as in movemenet/attackspeed/castspeed.

You are misinterpreting, or perhaps simply reading too much into, Ghostcrawler's comment. He didn't say anything about bosses being susceptible to slowing/snaring effects. He said that Torment the Weak provides the damage bonus to targets that are afflicted by any kind of slowing effect.

Taken literally, that means, if the target can be slowed (not immune), then Torment the Weak works. Manly's question is entirely valid, and I asked the same thing on the WoW thread. Ghostcrawler seems to be actively replying to it, so we'll see. You could be entirely right, but GC was quite vague.

Masaru · 12/10/08, 3:00 PM

So the Precision change puts Arcane spells back to have a crazily lower hit cap, correct?

I'm vaguely annoyed by the Torment the Weak change as I enjoy FFB play quite a lot. Put it seems obvious that arcane-powered fireball specs will shoot up by a wide margin now.

Eyegore · 12/10/08, 3:02 PM

You are misinterpreting, or perhaps simply reading too much into, Ghostcrawler's comment. He didn't say anything about bosses being susceptible to slowing/snaring effects. He said that Torment the Weak provides the damage bonus to targets that are afflicted by any kind of slowing effect.

Taken literally, that means, if the target can be slowed (not immune), then Torment the Weak works. Manly's question is entirely valid, and I asked the same thing on the WoW thread. Ghostcrawler seems to be actively replying to it, so we'll see. You could be entirely right, but GC was quite vague.

Well, thunderclap was specifically listed, which is an attack speed slow and not a movement speed slow that bosses for sure ARE effected by, so I would feel safe in assuming other attack speed debuffs from other tanks _should_ also work. Inferring from that that cast speed slowing effects also work seems logical, however that in no way means that it is true.

Lhivera · 12/10/08, 3:04 PM

Corrected some stuff about Fire and TTW.

Short analysis: A slight nerf to FFB spec, which is probably good, a significant buff to a max-DPS Frost spec and Fire spec (because, realistically, Torment the Weak didn't do anything for them before, because Slow Slaves weren't really present), and probably a decent buff to Arcane. Result is probably that Fire is max DPS, FFB is a bit lower, Frost is lower but possibly at least in a competitive range now, Arcane will be improved but not sure how much.

Arcane: Since I haven't looked at the breakdown of how much damage is coming from which spells in a few months, I'm not going to guess whether the changes are enough or too little or too much, but they should certainly get Arcane closer to target. I really wish they would stop reducing the cooldown on Evocation (although the talented cooldown reduction is good). Much preferable would be a 5-minute cooldown (3 or 4 for Arcane), reduced base regeneration, and increase the regeneration via spirit.

Fire: DPS up by 12% because TTW now does something for it. Probably max-single-target DPS spec now, but with its higher threat and lower efficiency, is it viable compared to FFB? And if it is, is it so far above Frost as to keep Frost nonviable?

Frost: The bad news is, Frost Mages now must spec 18 into Arcane for competitive DPS, which requires dropping Brain Freeze and getting two more points (probably from Arctic Reach or Improved Blizzard).

The good news is that the extra 10% DPS relative to FFB (+12% from TTW, -2% from losing Brain Freeze) may push Frost DPS up into a competitive range, depending on how Fire works out.

The other bad news is that, by losing Brain Freeze, Frost's DPS rotation became even more boring than it already was, which hardly seems possible. I seriously hope they're working on the Shatter Combo problem, because that's the only thing that can save the spec from actually killing players in real life by suppressing respiration and heart rate.

Frostfire: Loses the double-dip on Elemental Precision, resulting in a small DPS reduction as FFB Mages will need to gear for another 3% hit.

Overall, this seems to be a good set of changes, but Frost PvE needs a hell of a lot of work on its flavor before it's going to be fun to play.

Ivorthemage · 12/10/08, 3:10 PM

Lhivera, the 3% nerf to FFB and the applicability of Torment to fireball should probably shove fire specs 12% ahead of frostfire.

Azrayne · 12/10/08, 3:10 PM

Evocation change is pointless, having a shorter cooldown won't do anything about the fact that we lose a huge chunk of DPS if we use it.

arch · 12/10/08, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Enthorn

You are misinterpreting, or perhaps simply reading too much into, Ghostcrawler's comment. He didn't say anything about bosses being susceptible to slowing/snaring effects. He said that Torment the Weak provides the damage bonus to targets that are afflicted by any kind of slowing effect.

Taken literally, that means, if the target can be slowed (not immune), then Torment the Weak works. Manly's question is entirely valid, and I asked the same thing on the WoW thread. Ghostcrawler seems to be actively replying to it, so we'll see. You could be entirely right, but GC was quite vague.

He specifically listed thunderclap which is an attackspeed slow. There are hardly any bosses that are immune to thunderclap slowing, only physical immune twin emperor comes to mind.

Even so, what's the point in giving +12% damage to your main nuke for trash/pvp/grinding? It's rather obvious that they want this retarded talent to be a part of our dps balance. And things will get even more hilarous if we ever were to run into a boss who's immune to this sort of stuff. This talent should have been removed during beta.