The reason I did not do what you suggested was because that would cause Arcane Blast Spam to became vastly superior to anything else. We have already seen what Blizzard thinks on this subject.
Now perhaps say, 10 or 15% extra crit damage from ARCANE spells per stack, and you have something.
On the PTR, the tooltip specifies the base damage of Arcane Blast to be 1256 to 1460. On live, the tooltip specifies 966 to 1122. My spec was same for both live and the PTR (59/0/12).
Either I failed to notice (or comprehend) it when someone mentioned the increase in base damage already in this thread, or it's new.
Be wary of tooltips. They are often misleading, and often talents will modify the values shown in the tooltips even though the multipliers they change in teh way damage is dealt doesn't map exactly in the way it is shown. Compare the tooltip from live and PTR using 0/0/0 spec if you want to have the proper stuff.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Be wary of tooltips. They are often misleading, and often talents will modify the values shown in the tooltips even though the multipliers they change in teh way damage is dealt doesn't map exactly in the way it is shown. Compare the tooltip from live and PTR using 0/0/0 spec if you want to have the proper stuff.
Ah, I see. In that case, the 0/0/0 tooltip for Arcane Blast on the PTR reads that the base damage is 1185 to 1377. If it helps, I noticed that the spell was hitting for around 250 damage more than I am accustomed to on live when I was testing my spec out with the new spell mechanics last night. At first I thought it was simply receiving the 15% damage bonus before it hit the target, so I examined the tooltip a bit more closely and saw that it showed different base damage values than Arcane Blast on live.
I would guess that they're playing with the numbers a bit to try and make Arcane Blast spam a decent option for burning mana. I've been wrong before though.
I'll see if I can hop on the PTR myself and check it out (unfortunately I haven't been able to get on for days), but that would be a very interesting change if it's true. Arcane mages have long been calling out for Arcane Blast to do more damage. I am slightly worried they're going about things the wrong way though. Arcane seems to be getting constantly fixed (ie the old t5 20% increased damage bonus) rather than just being given some good scaling.
Obviously haste will always be a bad stat for us. In mana conserving rotations too much haste forces our rotation to clip and pushes into a non-optimal rotation. For mana burn rotations too much haste is bad just as it always was for arcane. What we really need is some sort of crit scaling. A start would be giving us 100% crit damage to bring us in line with all other mages specs.
I have loaded my Char in Rawr 2.14 and created the new 57/3/11 Arcane Build, added the glyphs for all 4 Builds (arcane,fire,frostfire,frost), activated the option snared and 3.0.8 Mode, all possible Raid Buffs/Flask/Food are activated.
And then i get following DPS Results:
Arcane 5224,51
Fire 5026,33
Frostfire 4962,99
Frost 3835,23
For me TTW works. When i deselect it the Arcane Build is loosing about 600 dps. And the Fire Build is loosing about 350 dps. ( have not checked not numbers, but i can see some changes )
Make sure you have selected 3.0.8 and the set the Snared Time to 1.
Ah, I was curious if that option existed somewhere. Found it.
My 3.0.8 mode bugs out as soon as it is selected, however it still calculates DPS before it stops responding. Assuming the information can be trusted, it shows Arcane as top. However, the Glyph of Arcane Blast is a factor in this. (It also seems to cause it to wig out too.) Even without the glyph, arcane still is on top by a VERY small margin using my gear (Going to load up Manly's and use his as a base). Going to play around with gems a bit and see what happens.
Edit:
Played around with Gems abit and made a suit of armor and somewhere along the path Fireball spec overtook Arcane, albeit by a fairly small margin. This is even assuming 15% of fight time spent in Molten Fury and maintaining Scorch, both of which seem fairly reasonable to me.
Frostfire is staying behind slightly by about 100 DPS. I dislike how forced we are to take haste. I have a feeling that is skewering the results for Arcane a bit. See if I can't get a good looking low haste suit together.
Edit 2:
On the contrary, I went optimized equipment for Arcane and it seemed to actually benefit from haste better than fireball did? This is a bit unexpected. Wouldn't this make us more mana starved?
I have this implemented as a channeled spell that cannot "miss".
Generally, for all actions (read "spells") I separate out the player_buff() and target_debuff() methods.
For direct-damage spells these methods are called when the cast-time completes.
For channels and DoTs the behaviour is the same, except that the "target_multiplier" is ignored. At each tick of the channel/DoT, target_debuff() is called again to get the most accurate target_multiplier.
Arcane Missiles is a special case: At each tick target_debuff() is still called, but all the relevant buffs are in play: hit/crit/mult etc debuffs. However, I do not call player_buff() again. So if the player state changes, I do not track it.
Your statement seems to imply that I need to call player_buff() at each tick..... Can you confirm this? Perhaps use a spell-power trinket and cast AM such that the buff will fade half-way through the channel?
Sorry to be a bit late in replying to this. I have recently gotten around to leveling my mage alt, and distinctly remember seeing the damage of individual AM bolts tick up (on a string of non-crits) as each one procced another stack of [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. So yes, it would seem that each individual missile independantly calculates damage based on current buffs. (unless my memory is really playing tricks with me, but at any rate anyone with that trinket still about can very easily test it)
With the Arcane Build you have 6% Hit from Talents, the Crit Multiplier is only 1,84 so the next best Stat after Spell Power is Haste. Just as simple as that.
Maybe Arcane is listed so high in Rawr because in the Sequence it uses ABMBAM during Icy Veins/Heriosm/Arcane Power, sounds for me that Rawr is assuming that a 15 seconds uptime of the MBAM Proc is possible.
Or am I wrong with the translation of the Sequence Function?
On the contrary, I went optimized equipment for Arcane and it seemed to actually benefit from haste better than fireball did? This is a bit unexpected. Wouldn't this make us more mana starved?
Any chance Rawr was set to "unlimited mana"? My understanding is that the haste concern with Arcane has always been at least partially related to mana consumption, so if set to unlimited, this could be why a larger than expected gain from haste is noticed.
Any chance Rawr was set to "unlimited mana"? My understanding is that the haste concern with Arcane has always been at least partially related to mana consumption, so if set to unlimited, this could be why a larger than expected gain from haste is noticed.
No, I made sure that was unchecked.
One thing I can say for sure is that the projections for Fireball and Frostfire are a bit off due to the ignite bug that still has not been fixed >.>. ASSUMING Rawr is not FUBARing Arcane, it is safe to say that Arcane has potential to outdo Fireball and Frostfire, however the lack of Imp Scorch is a bit iffy.
With all the arcane viability talk, i'm getting more concerned about the fire/frost +10% crit buff talents. The current position of said talents is such that it's really a little awkward/silly for an arcane mage to throw 18 points in fire to get(although theres nothing stopping them). Furthermore, mutiple fire/frost mages still feel a little stupid in a raid all having said talents, given that they don't give any other benefits.
None of this is really news, but the sentiment will grow a little when more mages decide to spec Arcane in light of the changes. More raids might indeed be faced with a scenario where they can't assume a deep fire/frost mage is present, like now for many guilds.
Naturally, many raiders will spec whatever is best for the raid - even if it is an awkward arcane '+18 fire' spec - but that doesn't make it good design on Blizzards part. There's definetely work that needs to be done to make improvements in this area.
Not only is there the concern with that debuff, but I also am TICKED they are doing nothing with spirit for the Arcane Tree. Crit scaling on living spirit, proc scaling on Missle Barrage, or SP scaling on a redone Mage Armor Glyph would all be fantastic along with some kind of either Crit Buff fire/frost give or perhaps even some type of unique spirit buff to the raid?
Even if Arcane comes out on top DPS, it is undeniable that SOMEONE needs to bring along that buff, which means someone is forced into a spec they may not particularly enjoy. However, it seems Fireball is VERY close to arcane, passing it depending on gear (assuming Rawr is 100% correct), so perhaps it's not as big an issue as I am making it out to be.
I'll see if I can hop on the PTR myself and check it out (unfortunately I haven't been able to get on for days), but that would be a very interesting change if it's true. Arcane mages have long been calling out for Arcane Blast to do more damage. I am slightly worried they're going about things the wrong way though. Arcane seems to be getting constantly fixed (ie the old t5 20% increased damage bonus) rather than just being given some good scaling.
Obviously haste will always be a bad stat for us. In mana conserving rotations too much haste forces our rotation to clip and pushes into a non-optimal rotation. For mana burn rotations too much haste is bad just as it always was for arcane. What we really need is some sort of crit scaling. A start would be giving us 100% crit damage to bring us in line with all other mages specs.
They cant give much crit multiplier scaling on arcane because of arcane power.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Thx for the Clarification of this fact Astrylian, i thought AB Spam with MBAM on Proc would be listed something like "AB3MBAM".
what i did not have expected is the small range the DPS differs from about 4350 to 4660 (my gear) with all possible Rotations, for example AB Spam, ABABar, AB2ABar, AB3ABar with MBAM on Proc and used in different ways like before ABar or after or even stacking an extra AB Debuff up before using the MBAM Proc.
I hope the different Specs we have, like Fire, Frostfire, Arcane will all be nearly doing the same amount of DPS so RNG will be the Difference what Spec will be on Top at the End of the Fight.
And no one is forced to be the only Crit Slave in a 25 Raid just to bring this Buff, because there will for sure be 1 or 2 Mages prefering the Fire/Frostfire Spec instead of Arcane.
edit:
with an 2 Minute Evo, Haste is not making me worry about Mana but the fact that we have no other possibility to prevent beeing interrupted during Evocation as Icy Veins sitting on a 2,4 Minute CD that is Out of Line with the new 2 Minte CD from Evo or even worther having to move during Evocation because of Void Zone`s like in the Sartharion Fight with 3 Drakes when Shadow Damage is increased by 100% and you need to immediately move out of it.
Okay.
So, I have one question.
What happens when you have multiple arcane mages in a raid?
Do the AB buffs stack from multiple arcane mages with the new changes?
Okay.
So, I have one question.
What happens when you have multiple arcane mages in a raid?
Do the AB buffs stack from multiple arcane mages with the new changes?
It is a debuff, not a buff. Like the current debuff, it only appears on the casting Arcane Mage. Only the mechanics have changed from Live -> PTR. (Just as they did, when they released 3.0 Arcane Blast Mechanics.)
So multiple Arcane Magi will not affect each other, at least involving Arcane Blast Debuffs.
Last edited by Rykolyn : 12/23/08 at 4:10 PM.
Reason: Clarity/Spelling
With all the arcane viability talk, i'm getting more concerned about the fire/frost +10% crit buff talents. The current position of said talents is such that it's really a little awkward/silly for an arcane mage to throw 18 points in fire to get(although theres nothing stopping them). Furthermore, mutiple fire/frost mages still feel a little stupid in a raid all having said talents, given that they don't give any other benefits.
Has anyone run the dps comparisons for an arcane build that includes improved scorch, under an assumption that the caster is hit capped even without elemental precision? Arcane gets 3% from arcane talents, 3% from IFF/misery, and alliance mages get the 1% from heroic presence. With hit plastered all over gear, or obtainable cheaply via gems used to get a socket bonus, we should be aware of what the options are when we don't need the extra hit.
They cant give much crit multiplier scaling on arcane because of arcane power.
Literally true, but its pretty easy to work around it. Imagine a talent that caused arcane mages to crit 25% more often per point of crit rating. If worried that this would make AP POM Pyros 100% crit, get rid of the crit chance bonus to POM off of arcane potency. Or a talent that buffed crit multipliers that didn't work when AP was active.
That said, I think crit complainers are missing the point. Yeah, arcane doesnt' scale as well with some stats that are plentiful on mage gear, but it scales better than other specs with other stats. You need to look at gear scaling as a whole, not just at specific stats. Arcane is not unique in this regard. Frost scales badly with crit as well, but scales well with haste. Frostfire gets zilch from spirit and almost nothing from Int, etc.
Not only is there the concern with that debuff, but I also am TICKED they are doing nothing with spirit for the Arcane Tree. Crit scaling on living spirit, proc scaling on Missle Barrage, or SP scaling on a redone Mage Armor Glyph would all be fantastic along with some kind of either Crit Buff fire/frost give or perhaps even some type of unique spirit buff to the raid?
I'm not feeling your complaint here. Arcane has talents that improve Spirit and provide an extra 30% in-combat mana regen. So you'll have to explain "nothing" a bit more clearly to us deliberately obtuse types. As far as damage output goes, according to Vontre's stat comparison found earlier in this thread Arcane is getting more out of the Intellect and Spirit found on much of our available gear, and scales better with crit than Frost. So it's just like Ivorthemage just said -- take the whole package into consideration.
If I remember correctly, plugging my mage in (Alexxiis / kil'jaeden US), the TCoM was telling me that a fireball/ABar rotation was better than AB/ABar, which I felt was kind of silly.
Perhaps this is why the arcane blast dmg was increased?
I'm not feeling your complaint here. Arcane has talents that improve Spirit and provide an extra 30% in-combat mana regen. So you'll have to explain "nothing" a bit more clearly to us deliberately obtuse types. As far as damage output goes, according to Vontre's stat comparison found earlier in this thread Arcane is getting more out of the Intellect and Spirit found on much of our available gear, and scales better with crit than Frost. So it's just like Ivorthemage just said -- take the whole package into consideration.
Oh, I love what Arcane takes from all the stats, don't get me wrong, but the mana consumption that Arcane has makes the mana contribution from Spirit nearly negligible, even having both 10% spirit and the Mage Armor Glyph the regen will hardly be noticeable, not to mention the DPS loss from Molten Armor.
Although in a raid setting it may play a larger factor than I think it does, but I believe it was stated earlier in the thread that even with Molten Armor, Arcane is very sustainable in a 25 man raid. I don't know, I was just expecting some kind of innovative use with Spirit is all.
12/22/08, 4:44 PM
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