Lyer

At least for the short term, is this implying that we don't spec into Missile Barrage (since we'd keep with the shatter rotation no matter what)? I'm just thinking about it in my head here at work and cannot think of a situation where I'd use the MB proc (movement aside). Am I totally missing something here?

 

bombdigie

Keep in mind that without raid mana regen buffs arcane sucks.

 

• Astrylian

...huh? Nobody's saying you don't spec into MB. Why wouldn't you? They're saying not to use the [nochannelling] macro, because you can't ABarr Shatter if you do.

EDIT: Coming in Rawr 2.1.8, Arcane+Scorch cycles.

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Dragonrhonin

I suppose I can see the logic in your argument. My main concern, and I think that of most arcane mages, is that the spec would lose it's viability(sp?). 'Twere it possible to change this without severely nerfing Arcane DPS I would not be opposed.

Edit: I'd also like to point out, if it hasn't been already, the AB Debuff is both cleanable and removed upon iceblock which will make some fights a chore.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...agonrhonin.png

 

Austin

Onyxia Solo'd - Wow Web Stats

Thanks for the spec Faxmonkey. FRAPS died at ~20%, I ran out of space on my hard drive ><.

Austin, 80 Mage - Austyn, 80 Death Knight - Austen, 70 Rogue - Dormant account - 70 Resto Druid, 70 Feral Druid

 

Pasture

Wouldn't doing so however see arcane pve unable to compete again whilst also being unable to provide the 10% crit buff that only a mage can bring? While it's yet to be proven currently arcane should be sitting around level with other mage specs. It has the edge on very mobile fights, but is unable to provide the crit buff. This seems fair to me. It evens out. If arcane is only slightly higher this too doesn't seem to crazy given it's decreased raid utility.

Only if arcane proves to be considerably higher damage and dps than other specs should we be calling for nerfs. It seems a little early to be calling for them at this stage when we haven't even seen the spec in pratice.

Edit On the arcane 'shatter' thing. Is it only the lag abuse the bothers you? As such would just casting arcane barrage without the fifth missile tic still offend as a game mechanic? I for one can't do the lag abuse trick. I have to cut my missiles short by one for barrage to get the benefit.

 

Pasture

That's annoying but shouldn't be a problem. Arcane mages will iceblock once a fight max most likely. And the buff will be dropped every cycle anyway. I wouldn't expect this to be too big of a problem.

 

Dragonrhonin

I'm more concerned with cleanse to be honest. I can't name any in particular, but if a cleanse fight were to come up (as it most likely will) it may become an issue with decursive.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...agonrhonin.png

 

Lhivera

And along similar lines:

There is a difference between a nerf, and making something work the way it's supposed to work. If fixing a problem results in reducing the performance of a spec, then obviously adjustments need to be made to produce acceptable performance.

It simply comes down to this: A spec should not be balanced around a busted mechanic. If a busted mechanic is all that makes the spec competive, that's not a reason to leave the busted mechanic in place, it's a reason to fix the spec.

Two important reasons for this: first, because exploiting a busted mechanic to make your spec perform properly just feels wrong -- it's inelegant, it's confusing to newcomers, it's often unreliable depending on the user's latency, it's inconsistent, it's just plain ugly. If you need to get drunk to enjoy a movie, it's not a very good movie. If you need to hop on one foot and squint your eye and sacrifice a goat to make your spec do acceptable DPS, then there's a design problem with the spec.

Second, because bugs have a habit of getting fixed. If Blizzard makes some kind of change to client-server communication that breaks this kind of combo, and your spec is balanced around that combo, then what? If the spec is balanced to work properly and in accordance with the various tooltips involved, a behind-the-scenes change like that is not an issue.

Don't defend broken mechanics -- argue in favor of changes that make them unnecessary.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Dragonrhonin

I consider it less than a defense of broken mechanics and more so a defense of the spec as a whole. It is not hard for me to envision a knee-jerk hotfix to this "bug" within the next few days, forcing mages back into some form of fire to do competitive dps.

Edit: I'm not against them fixing it, I only ask that if/when they do, they seriously analyze the effects and make changes. Regardless, this isn't the right place to be talking about this, and I don't want to bring the thread off topic. Please continue the previous discussions pre my intrusion.
Edit Dos: Regarding Next Post

Indeed? Well then we shall wait and see when the live numbers come in from tonight/this week. If that holds true and fire becomes the underdog rather than equal I would not be opposed to a "fix", nor should any other fair arcane mage.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...agonrhonin.png

 

◊ manly

Well if you feel like trusting rawr then you get 7k dps on 3min patchwerk using 57/3/11. Of course, you get even more if the fight is shorter. The numbers are equally retarded on longer fights. The big discrepancy is that I set RAWR with FM from another mage (so that you count both FM effects as your own dps) + 100% snared time + 100% reproducible AM/abarr bug. And no, no other spec is remotely close to that.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Soulesss

How about 20/51?

So, 57/3/11 is THE spec now?

Or only when exploiting the AM insert Abr "bug"?

 

epoh

Actually, ran 10man naxx tonight, 2 warrior tanks, 2 dk dps, 3 mages, 1 lock a healy priest and healy druid. So, zero external mana regen. WWS - Wow Web Stats Was my first go round with arcane since TBC, so took a few fights for me to get comfortable. Used 6 mana post, and used evo twice on a couple of fights and still did pretty well.

ETA: Even with all the craptastic lag tonight, I was able to get off the 'shatter' combo (or whatever we are calling it) the vast majority of the time without too much effort.

 

Lhivera

Hm, missiles + barrage = mirage combo?

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Sancus

Yeah Rawr is wrong, because real results don't reproduce this. The only time Arcane is coming anywhere close to that dps is on fights in the 1 minute range. I realize that Rawr assumes more perfect play and etc than is likely, but I really don't see where this extra 1k dps is supposed to come from. 6k, absolutely, with some amazing RNG, 6.5k, and maybe 7k with Tricks of the Trade spam... but there's no way in hell this spec is AVERAGING 7k on 3 minute patch. It's impossible.

Regardless, 57/3/11 is a leech spec that is only really overpowered in short fights, because, again, AP+PoM burst is overpowered. Combining it with Icy Veins just takes it from overpowered to completely stupid. AP and PoM need to be smoothed out, for the sake of both PvE and PvP.

At the end of the day though, if they do end up nerfing Arcane, I won't cry a hell of a lot, because playing a spec that has completely worthless ranged aoe sucks a lot now that I'm used to having a decent Blizzard in FFB spec.

EDIT:

To make some more concrete points, I think that the whole 'blaster combo' thing is really fun and the fact that it requires good timing is a point in its favor. Bug or not, it's pretty hard for them to fix if their progress on the FoF bug and ignite munching, etc are any indication, so I would recommend that they leave it in and balance the spec assuming 4 ticks of AM + Barrage... you can do 5 ticks+Barrage, but it's very hard and probably not possible to do consistently on any fight with any sort of movement or awareness requirements at all. The spec's dps is too high, but the contortions required to get Improved Scorch are really stupid as well -- I think the best solution is to ASSUME that people will be 57/3/11 or 51/3/18 depending on mana requirements and add the 10% crit debuff to the top of the Arcane tree somewhere. Missile Barrage seems like a good candidate.

That way, all 3 Mage specs will provide the buff, and you can balance their dps without worrying about all these strange spec variations that the lack of it produces for Arcane.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Kel S'jet

Well...

After a night of solid raiding (barring the cancellation of our 25 man due to some of the worst lag I have ever experienced), I have a very preliminary report on the *new* Arcane.

It is pretty awesome.

We decided to go with a 10 man instead, I was using the 57/3/11 spec that I posted in one of my first posts in this thread. I found:

I had little to no mana issues (though I must admit I am no newbie when it comes to the world of mana management, in fact I absolutely loved the fact that I got to manage my mana again in a dynamic way). That being said, I did not have to switch to Mage Armor as often as I would have thought. Though without further testing in a 25 man environment, I am still hesitant to call off the Mage Armor glyph.
The "Barrage Combo" really was not too hard to pull off in the heat of battle. Take note, I do not use /castsequence macros and/or any other form of macro for actual DPS casting.
I had an almost gobsmacking amount of burst.
The playstyle that I hinted towards in my first few posts in this thread is very very viable. That being, a playstyle consisting of totally destroying your mana within the first minute or so of the fight then using a stacked IV + gloves evoc and gem to mana back up (and if you throw in an embrace of the spider proc in there it is pretty much GG), and then follow on with a more reasonable rotation produces an immense amount of frontloaded damage whose cost is very easily recoverable.
Torment the Weak really is a cornerstone talent. When attacking something that is not tormented, it really does show. Thankfully on most boss fights this is a non-issue.
I am far poorer at AoE as arcane than I was as frostfire.
The arcane blast debuff can be cleansed! It took me a while to figure out what was going on but when our resident paladin spoke up in vent and said "Xeth what is that debuff you keep getting? I keep cleansing it but it keeps coming back" I realized that he was cleansing the AB debuff. This could be a designed weakness of the spec (i.e. have the spec perform poorly in fights that require raid members to be cleansed) or it could just be a bug/oversight. Either way, it made an interesting point.
Overall my first impressions of the spec is that the changes to it are quite successful. The new AB mechanic leads to fun and interesting 'real time' choices that need to be made. The spec itself is very competitive. Some of the old age characteristics of the spec have been preserved in this new incarnation. Mana mangement, immense casting versatility (DPS DPM tradeoffs), as well as a new characteristic of fantastic mobility.
Relative performance was a little hard to judge since so many other classes got a series of nerfs/buffs with the patch. On most straight boss fights (as in not the ones where we have to do something silly like do the 4 horsemen achievement) I was clocking in at around 3.8 - 4k dps very consistently. The key word is 'consistently' since after a few months of being at the mercy of the RNG gods with frostfire, the consistency of Arcane DPS is like a breath of fresh air.

That being said, much more live testing is required. Though at this point, I am so very thankful that I can finally raid as arcane again.

All I can hope for now is that the servers stabilize to the point where we can get in a good solid night of 25 man raiding. There are a couple of fights on which I really do wish to test this spec. Overall though, I think 3.0.8 is a large step in the right direction for arcane.

 

Sancus

Wow Web Stats

Here's WWS of our patchwerk, too. It's worth noting that my crit rates were about average, but the Fireball spec mage was at least 10% below his expected crit rate. In all likelihood, was his crit rate as expected, he would've beaten me. So, maybe Fireball spec needs a nerf too, not just Arcane!

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Soulesss

Thanks for the WWS... from the entire wws... clearly u were doing better then the fireball mage. But we don't know if that could be due to the fact that you're an overall better player then he is...

Would be a perfect comparision if he and you were to swap specs

 

Kel S'jet

You are missing perhaps the most critical factor of that report. That being that the patchwerk fight lasted 2mins 47 seconds. This is only possible since your entire raid is doing an immense amount of damage. IF, in some hypothetical, your entire raid was not all geared to the teeth, that would naturally prolong the encounter, and the immense dps that you frontloaded would not have been possible for you to sustain even if your gear remained the same. Be mindful of this fact.

Do not be so quick to call for nerfs on something which you are clearly not understanding in its entirety. I find the fact that you have, on the very first day of the specs release, already started lobbying for nerfs to it, very disturbing indeed, especially since you have not really even bothered to understand the reason's why a particular behavior is occurring.

 

Sancus

I SAID MAYBE IT NEEDS A NERF, NOT HOTFIX US TO THE GROUND, BRO.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Swindley

Kel S'jet, you argue that the fight favoured arcane, but I'll bet his gear favoured frostfire, and he'd be able to pull even higher dps with gear more suited for arcane. Not to mention it was his first raid as arcane, and there might be room for even more improvement with practice.

I know you want to spec arcane and speak strongly for it. But have you also concidered that some people prefer fire as well? I'm not saying that arcane shouldnt be viable, but I was actually looking forward to the 3 specs being roughly equal, so you could spec what you actually prefer.

If arcane is actually 1k dps above the rest, there really isnt much choice anymore, and 1 mage will be stuck as fire while the others decimate on damage. And it's not fun for the raid either when that 1 mage can't raid, probably forcing another mage to respec, change his glyphs, hotkeys and maybe even gear.
Not to mention the current frostfiremages would probably have to change alot of their gear, with less hit and crit, more haste and maybe even some spirit, to spec something they might even not enjoy.

I would rather they fix the BUG of ramped up AB affecting 2 spells (when tooltip clearly says it's only affecting next spell), as I guess this would bring arcane closer to the rest, while still being a viable choice. I'd also hope for some arcane spell to bring the critdebuff so we truly had 3 good choices in spec.

Note that I don't really prefer any spec over another, and will have arcane raid spec as my 2nd spec when dualspec arrives, probably even primary if it could bring the scorch debuff.

 

sornok

I am the kind of person that does not want to use cheats/bugs.

So my question is, if someone does not use the "shatter" combo cheat. How well will he do with 57/3/11 ?

If in fact 57/3/11 pulls more dps than the other specs, maybe it is the "shatter" combo that needs to be nerfed/fixed in order to be inline with the rest of the specs ? Or will it go even lower ?

 

◊ manly

Somebody linked this on the BB to show the misery bug.

Wow Web Stats

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Jarlyn

I realize it's early on into the Arcane playstyle and no one's playing it to perfection, but the parses linked so far look pretty reasonable DPS-wise. The Patchwerk parse Sancus linked has the Fireball mage at 49% crit, which is exceedingly low for an FB spec. Bump that to 57+ or so and he's dead even if not ahead of Sancus. The second mage also didn't use a Speed pot where Sancus did.

The parse Manly linked has the top mage with what seems to be pretty high crit rates and it still doesn't look outrageous to me. Fire specs are going to be easily crossing 6.0-6.5k+ on the top parses these days, so if Arcane isn't better, then there's little reason to spec it. As mentioned the big falloff in AoE DPS has to justified somewhere, and if it's not single target DPS, then Arcane's back to being pointless.

 

Audax

Did anyone keep 53/18 FFB during first raid just to make a pure comparison on live (and also because of gear optimized for FFB so far, instead of arcane) and wishes to spare some comment or did we all went Arcane after the huge amount of theorycrafting done in the last days?

Just wondering

And ye, would like to hear more from someone that didn't "abuse" the shatter barrage just to get an idea of the area arcane will be standing around when it gets fixed.

Sorry for the amount of questions, but in EU servers aren't up yet