Requiring effort and/or a sacrifice of personal DPS to apply a raid buff or debuff is not entirely off the table. The relevent question is whether the absolute DPS sacrifice, or the relative DPS sacrifices between two classes for the same effect, is too large, for whatever hand-wavy touchy-feely definition you want to have for too large. Moonkin get Earth and Moon for free, but they have to manually cast Faerie Fire. Meanwhile shadowpriests cover the Improved Faerie Fire debuff for free. This isn't considered a pressing issue, one instant-cast every 30 seconds is hardly game-breaking and they get some personal benefit out of specing for it. Warriors have to manually apply thunderclap while all other tanks get the debuff for free in their rotation, and this isn't a huge game-breaking grievance either. Scorch vs Winter's Chill is a similar comparison, they're a little different but not really that much.

The counterexamples that they've said they're looking into give an indication of what blizzard considers too onerous. Shaman UR is a good example, it costs too many talent points and has no selfish benefit, and is inferior to TS aura (proc vs always up), and it's being re-evaluated. As far as scorch, though... basically, it's in the same boat as Sunder Armor. Five stacks to start, and refresh regularly. This is generally seen as acceptable (if mildly annoying) for warriros, while a rogue's Expose Armor is excessively costly.

One rule of thumb could be, if no one else were either applying or benefiting from the debuff, ie a solo situation, is it still a DPS increase to use it? Scorch yes, sunder yes, expose armor only sometimes, CoE usually not. Scorch is such that you would want to cast it just for yourself. This isn't an extremely nuanced metric, but it put the personal DPS loss in perspective.

Nonetheless, this rule of thumb does not cover the UR scenario: too many talents and no selfish benefit. Way on the other end of the spectrum, I intend never to cast CoE but I spec malediction, because it's still 3% spell damage. Scorch has room for improvement in terms of selfish benefits outside of applying the scorch debuff.

I don't even think changing Brain Freeze to allow FFBs will cut it. Ramp up DPS (to limit burst) with existing spells won't add any fun. As for playstyle, arcane uses three spells, fire uses four. Frost? Realistically right now, one. Brain Freeze is often skipped in the TtW build, and icelance isn't working on the shatter combo end for raid DPS. The WE is a cooldown same as AP or Combustion. It really needs an additional spell in the rotation to make it fun to play in PvE. It really, really needs another spell.

Looking at you, worthless-for-PvE-51-pt-talent.

We really have no idea how they're defining the investment. Is Improved Scorch a 3-point investment (not so bad) or an 18-point investment (freakin' terrible)? That depends on whether you're a Fire/Frostfire or Arcane Mage.

As for whether the Scorch debuff is a DPS increase when solo, that really depends on what you're fighting, doesn't it? Target dummies and Dr. Boom, sure, it's an increase. 12K hit point mobs? I rather think you're better off not casting the Scorch. So in most realistic soloing situations, the talent really has no benefit.


In principle, I agree with you, it's ridiculous for the Frost tree, of all trees, to have the 51-pointer it has.

Practically speaking, the problem could be solved without adding another spell. This would require:

- Changing things so that going into Arcane is not mandatory. This at least permits builds in which Brain Freeze becomes important as a replacement for Clearcasting.

- Fixing the Shatter Combo problem.

Do those two things, and the spec now watches for two procs along with its cooldown management (which is a little more significant than the arcane and fire cooldown management). Adding a new spell would probably be a better solution, but this would be an adequate solution.

Or make it trainable at the same time that you nerf scorch and spread it around to other classes.

Tricks of the Trade is trainable, a 5% average DPS boost, and has a bunch of extra utility (boost tank threat, help with an AE pull that came in late to redirect on the tank, reduce the rogue's threat.)

Focus magic is trainable, and a 6% DPS boost, with no other utility. Could nerf it to a lower percentage value if you want too.


Both are small, stackable buffs that the class brings to the raid in addition to other fight-specific tools.

Focus Magic is a pretty small thing in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it would by definition be unbalanced to be trainable, given that Tricks exists and is trainable.

Giving free focus magic to all mages would make fireball spec obsolete. Why pay for that extra mana and hit rating when you can have that additional crit and icy veins in the same build and do virtually equal damage?

Well I'm presuming they don't just place a zero-effect talent in that place, just like Lhivera was assuming something would replace it when he suggested it be moved further down the tree... It's jumping the gun a little to react to a change like that by declaring that it kills a tree. This is in the context of several other changes (such as potentially buffing the scorch talent or replacing it.)

Not even close - I trialled a TtW FB spec for a Naxx25 clear tonight, could not even get close to using my mana.
Yes it is farm content and we have replenishment in the raid but the mana burn rate appeared to be not much more than FFB.

This alone still pushes FFB over the line IMO and would require further unnecessary tuning. Rather, a 6% total crit debuff and getting 3% back from taking whichever talent applies that raid debuff (winter's scorch and whatever arcane will get) is a better iea and is more consistent with other similar talents such as IFF, Misery, Malediction, and so forth.

Well a good step in the right direction is to compare some spell ideas.

Main Filler Nuke: Frostbolt. Frost, by no means, is lacking a filler nuke. However, a filler nuke should by no means ever be your highest dps (Special Case of Arcane's AB). As it is, Frostbolt is lackluster in the damage it provides anyway.

Main Instant Nuke: Ice Lance: Ice Lance, from a PvE perspective, is trash. This ability needs a rehaul for PvE, then re-evaluated for PvP afterwards.

What Frost is really lacking is a potent spell with mana restrictions or special conditions. (MBAM, Living Bomb, Hot Streak) Ice Lance, Brain Freeze and Deep Freeze are, to me, the prime contenders to add in a mechanic like this. Something that I have always liked the idea of, and personally would make the frost spec MUCH funner to me, would be the following:

Change Brain Freeze to an effect that causes your next 2 ice lances to trigger no GCD (similar to lock and load). Make this effect stack to 4 charges max (Allowing you to wait for the upcoming Fingers of Frost). Change Fingers of Frost to a passive buff that lasts 6-8 seconds that does the exact same thing it does now.

Deep Freeze compliments the frost tree very well in a pvp type format. I honestly have a hard time saying just scrap it, and making it do something to targets that are immune to a stun feels kind of forced. Instead. I'd like to add something to Frost Armor to make it more appealing for it's corresponding spec that also modifies Deep Freeze. Add a talent somewhere near the deeper end of the tree that does the following:

Your Frost Armor now surrounds you with frozen orbs. The Frost Armor generates 1 orb every time you land a critical strike, but can only possess 1/3/5 at any given time. Being attacked or casting Frostbolt will grant a 33/66/100% chance to cause an orb to fly toward the target and deal damage modified by spell power. These orbs place a Deathly Chill on the target that can stack up to 10 times, each one increasing Ice Lance damage by 2%.

And now to throw in the Deep Freeze synergy:

Deep Freeze will now deal damage based on the number of Deathly Chills on the target modified by spell power. This effect consumes all Deadly Chills on the target. (Would be something akin to 300 damage per chill modified by spell power)


It's all just me throwing out ideas but I usually keep quiet on them just because they really won't mean much in the long run. But something like this needs to happen for frost, it has very weak reactive talents and no "trump" spells that require some kind of buildup or synergy to truly function.

Yes.

Focus Magic is minor (it's just also 3% crit to someone else -- I don't see the difference betwen that and your suggestion 'pushes FFB over the line', either way it's 3% crit to you), and it and Hysteria are both very odd as talents. It seems they are more appropriate for trainable spells like MD and Tricks are, if such "single target, varying but stackable utility" spells will continue to be a part of DPS classes (and DK's, with Hysteria.)

If you accept that they want that kind of semi-annoying DPS-stacking buff in the game, FM is far less utility than Tricks.

According the the 3.1 Warlock changes just posted (World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Class Change Highlights (Part 2)), Improved Shadow Bolt will now "provide a 5% spell critical strike buff (similar to Improved Scorch)". So that resolves the "unique snowflake" issue of Imp. Scorch/WC, assuming that Imp. Scorch/WC will be nerfed down to 5% crit.

So basically caster damage is taking a big global nerf vs physical damage classes, that's good to know.

This is just whining sarcasm based on partial information.

Ghostcrawler posted a bit over a week ago (here) that they'd reached the conclusion the 10% crit debuff is probably too powerful. He also indicated that there's a melee raid buff they think is equally "game-changing" and they wish to fix it. We have no idea yet what type of relative change there may be between caster and physical damage in patch 3.1 because even a partial list of mage changes hasn't been announced at this time.

I'm kind of disturbed at all the people saying Frost needs to become more complicated. Remember that the readers and posters of EJ are not typical... you are not mainstream, by definition and by choice. There are people who really want to have a spec where they can put out maximum DPS for their spec without a complicated rotation (or any rotation at all). Frost fulfills that goals, and it is a design decision by Blizz to specifically make Frost simple to dps with.

Nuke Frostbolt
Use Fireball! when it procs.
Use Water Elemental when it's available.
Use Icy Veins in combination with trinkets, haste pots, and/or Glyphed Mana Gems.
Use Cold Snap at the beginning, end, or both of the fight (conditionally) to use double-WE and double-IV

That's it. There is nothing else a frost mage can do to maximize their DPS. They never have to worry about mana in a properly stacked raid, and they can keep up maximum DPS in 5 and 10 man situations even without raid provided mana regen. And even that is pretty complicated for a beginning raider to keep track of, IN ADDITION to learning new content and fights.

Frost is too far behind FFB and Arcane, but it should REMAIN simple, and REMAIN behind (just not as far). Saying Frost is a boring spec means that the spec isn't for you... play a different one. But other players prefer a spec that requires less concentration to do well.

In my raids, I'm the person responsible for watching everyone else, calling out movement, deciding when to battle rez... I really like having a simple spec where I can just hit a single button when shit hits the fan, and my attention is needed elsewhere.

More complicated? I honestly cant remember anyone saying frost needs to be more 'complicated'. The key words used are 'fun' and 'interactive'. It's a big difference. It doesnt necessarily need to be overly complicated, to be fun or interactive either.

For example: The upcoming 3.1 changes to serendipity will make holy priests more fun/interactive, but its only more complicated for players who wish to take advantage of the new mechanics in question. People who wish to continue the one button spamming may continue to do so, but it might no longer be optimal. I would respectfully say that most of your post is just too subjective to be passed off as serious. Who is one person to say that one spec should 'remain' simple, when a nontrivial amount of people will beg to differ and desperately seek more fun/interactivity. There are raid leaders of every spec/class combination possible, Frost Mages are not special in this regard.

First, it's not really a design decision by Blizzard. They've stated that they agree it needs some work in this department.

Second, I really just have no sympathy for the viewpoint that there needs to be a spec designed to achieve a similar level of performance from lazy/inexperienced/preoccupied players to the level of performance achieved through good, focused play of other specs. Good play should yield superior results for every spec.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Upcoming Changes to Mana Regeneration

And the description I listed does require good play on the part of the mage. The important point being that decisions on what to cast next are every 30 to 60 seconds (ignoring Brain Freeze procs), rather than every 5-15 seconds. It still requires good play to achieve maximum dps, but the time between decision points is longer. You still need to know that BF procs are a mana saving technique, not a dps increase; not to use BF procs when double-hasted, because you're certainly haste capped; the expected length of the fight so you know when to use your Cold Snap; the mana regen currently in your raid, so you know what armor to be using; how much AoE you will need to do and the effect it will have on your mana burn.

There are a lot of decisions to make to make sure you are doing the best you can for your raid that don't involve 'which damage spell do I cast now in my rotation'. I'm not saying that Frost takes no skill, or that poor players should be able to do well with Frost.

My only belief is that there is nothing wrong with a spec that has a two spell nuke rotation as a 'best damage' rotation for that spec. Having only two buttons to hit does not necessarily make it boring or require zero skill, though it definitely requires less skill. There are many other parts of a fight to screw up poor players and gimp their DPS. Having a variety of specs with a variety of playstyles is not a downside, in my opinion. Complex rotations should be rewarded with higher DPS. I just disagree that every spec needs to have a complex rotation.

That's exactly the problem I'm describing. Less skill for the same result. And, frankly, that equates to more boredom for many of us. Simply playing another spec isn't really a good response: "If you want an interesting spec play something else" holds no more validity than "If you want to raid play something else."

Note that nobody's asking for Frost to become as complex as Affliction, so that we have to spend all our time watching timers. But there's a happy medium between the two extremes, and most specs fall within that happy medium. Frost should, as well.

Some of us are capable of making reasonable conclusions based on posted evidence without waiting for Blizzard to spoonfeed it to us. They said they were nerfing Scorch, and that they were nerfing Sunder. It's always been 100% obvious that the 'game changing melee debuff' was Sunder. They've announced the change to it, except they're adjusting all the armor values for all mobs so that physical damage is unchanged.

There was no announcement of any compensating changes to caster dps, and I feel pretty confident in stating that there will not be one, as it would have already been mentioned relative to Warlocks and Shadow Priests -- Mages are not the only casters and my post, despite your random intention to interpret it as 'whining sarcasm' was not a complaint about a _Mage_ nerf, but rather a statement that _casters_ will be taking a dps nerf.

From all currently known evidence, that is quite logical.

Eh, if you're going to make negative inferences, you might as well make the reasonable positive ones, too: we've already talked about how they seem to be moving toward a model of adding "selfish" benefit to the debuff talents, and they've left a huge open door for potential improvements to the Warlock trees by announcing that they're removing/replacing/modifying quite a few talents that are currently considered weak.

Not to add on to speculation but I was wondering if other mages felt that we should be given a replenishment ability like s-priests (and now warlocks).