Zaldinar

You'd be fishing within the 10 second window for a proc, which is potentially even really a 7.5 second window if you want to AB to retain the stack. So AB->AB->AB->Fr->Fr->Fr gives a good chance of getting the proc and with a little haste is plenty of time to recast the AB at the end if you don't get a proc. Or AB->AB->AB->{FB|FFB}->{FB|FFB} with a fire or frostfire variant. And there's always the potential of fishing out to the 10 second mark and AMing without the proc if all else fails.

Seems a bit complicated to juggle no?

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=109841969
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 

PsyBomb

I've been trying fairly hard to write a decent Arcane spec, but I'm coming up critically short on points. In essence, it is strictly (though barely) possible to get everything that is critically needed. What I define as "needed" is TotW, Meditation, ABar, both +hit talents, 3/3 in either MoE or Frost Channeling, and everything you can lay your grubby paws on that buffs AB, ABar, and especially your longevity.

I'm coming up with 51/2/18, but I do not like it one bit. It has nearly all of the "critical" stuff, but cannot afford to get such things as the last point of Incineration, anything in Prismatic Cloak, Magic Attunement, and Netherwind Presence. It wastes points in Frost to get to +hit and Channeling, but most of what is put there benefits Ice Lance, which is helpful if you are forced to move. I don't know about the spec well enough to know if what I'm doing is right or wrong, but I've never (NEVER) felt this constrained while picking out talents for anything. That includes Balance Druids.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Kel S'jet

Take a look at the talent spec I linked in the last page or so.

I do believe that it will be the defacto Arcane spec.

 

jdpowers19

Im interested in how this will affect the mage communities current feeling on spirit. Will using gear with more spirit allow us to use more mana-intensive rotations and thus increasing dps? I think the answer is yes, and I think this should have always been the case with mages. Given equal item levels, gear with no spirit on it will have more offensive stats, so the mage will use a less aggressive rotation but make up for it in stats. Mages with tons of spirit will be able to use extremely aggressive rotations because of it.

At least, Im hoping this is how it turns out. Id love to be able to grab a piece of spirit gear without thinking I want to replace it first chance I get.

 

PsyBomb

I saw it, but I'm not that big a fan of Icy Veins in Pure Arcane (defined: using AB-ABar-MBAM) spec. Its only real use is to allow you to cast when you will need to move very soon, and in the Barrage sections. If you use it to shift into an extra AB between Blasts, it just ends up greatly increasing the mana consumption of an already extremely mana-hungry spec. I only grab it in mine as literally a filler point on the way to Channeling.

If we are given the choice to take neither Channeling nor MoE, then I end up with 60/3/8. Again, not sure how this would work out (I'm unable to test due to unreliable internet). Even here, not a big fan of haste as an Arcane stat for this tier of gear (for much the same reasons as Icy Veins, above). Once regen levels plus haste on gear make it viable, the points in Netherwind Presence can be used to put it over the top into double AB rotations. Until then, at least two of them can probably be used far better elsewhere.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Uglybugger

Who has done the math so far?

What I am seeing is not promising. Spending more mana does not result in higher DPS in my calculations. It actually goes down due to the low dps provided by Arcane Blast.

That is to say, casting Arcane Blast more than once, even with the new buff to other Arcane spells, is still not worth while. The goal will still be to cast AB as little as possible.

That's not to say I dislike the change. It still results in an overall DPS increase from where we are now. It's just that the low damage of the spell itself reduces the effective uses of what would otherwise be an interesting mechanic.

 

Aeldaar

Arcane with Master of looks something like 53/18/0. Icy Veins isn't that exciting (on top of being a different cooldown from the two minute arcane set) and you lose the hit from Precision, but you get an amazing amount of mana return and burst. Arcane Mind is a slight dps increase but having your nukes immune to pushback is more useful

 

Kel S'jet

I do believe that it was generally accepted that spirit has always been a worthwhile stat for arcane mages (obviously, not over the more important mage stats e.g. hit and dmg). The general outcry of the larger mage population against spirit was more targeted at non-arcane specs who, they feel, do not have a valid use for spirit.

But yes, the question you pose would be an interesting one, that being;

1) How does an arcane mage with little spirit more dmg stats and a less aggressive rotation compare to an arcane mage with spirit, less dmg stats (comparatively) and a more aggressive rotation?

I'm sure that, charted out, we could find a balance point where the two equate, though it may be at numbers not reachable realistically.

 

Saphirox

I was kinda hoping for blizz to come up with some new manaregen mechanic along the lines of convert intellect into mp5 or something similar. Utilizing spirit as our basetool for arcane manaregen means we have to start looking for such pieces again and that isnt exactly appealing to me very much.

Looking at the way itemization has gone so far in wotlk the main stats on caster dps items seems to me to have intellect/stamina mainly. I wonder how all the healers are gonna handle us coming along snagging spirit pieces if arcane turns out to be pve viable on par with the other trees?

 

LiquidHAL

There seems to be 4 sets of cloth in each tier (200 and 213) not counting the actual tier items. The sets are roughly

Stam, Int, Spell Power, and two additional stats, either

• spirit+hit/crit/haste
• spirit+haste/crit
• mp5+haste/crit
• crit/hit/haste

Some of the spirit+hit/crit/haste pieces are near identical to some pieces from the spirit+crit/haste set, resulting in two very similar drops with the same item level and some minor stat shuffling.

Suffice it to say, there's more than enough to go around. I can't figure out who wants the mp5 set though, seems to be the red headed stepchild of the bunch. Shaman or pally healers tend take them as a temporary upgrade until they get mail/plate.

 

Kyriani

My guess is that in some silly dev's brain... casters who cant benefit from spirit (basically non arcane mages since pretty much all other cloth wearing classes get something other than regen from it) they think that mp5 would be desireable as a regen stat

just a guess.

 

Zure

I believe the item designers thought that Disc Priests would be using the Mp5 cloth.

 

Deedre

If you're not going to bother with either frost channeling or MoE, why not just go 68/3/0 and be done with it? It's not clear to me why deep arcane needs EP.

 

Swindley

I had the same thought.. it's not hard to make up the extra hit in gear, and you'd be able to pick up some more arcane DPS talents, and alot of fun talents. (I think it'd make arcane more fun to play as well)

Like pushback protection, arcane mind, mind mastery etc. Choices would be more in the line of imp cs vs arcane shielding, which are far more "fun" choices based on pvp or situational use in pve. If you add up all the extra utility you'll get, with abit of extra minor dps talents, I'd bet they outweigh the mana talents and a small 3% hit bonus. (and alot of wasted non-use talents in fire or frost)

I Actually think arcane can do without the extra mana from frost channeling or MOE, because it's becoming obvious that you probably want to get of MBAM or ABr as soon as possible, instead of building up AB stacks.

Alot of helpful posts here, and it seems a simple rotation like AB -> ABr with MBAM whenever it procs would be good.

Now a question, can anyone model the new fire DPS with 18 in arcane? (especially compared to FFB) As well as new arcane with a few different rotations? Pretty graphs like we had earlier would be really helpfull!

 

Leialyn

I know it won't happen but since every arcane spell is mentioned, 45% more damage for Mirror Images would be nice as well.

As for the new TtW changes and the question wether to FFB on or switch to FB I guess I'll stay FFB.
The lower Mana costs are definetely nice at long fights where you can't say when its nice to evocate safely without beeing interrupted and since we are already at ~50% crit chance in raids it can only get better with higher gear levels favoring FFB more. Sure you can get unlucky with your RNG buddy giving you almost no crits but you can get unlucky with Clearcasts as well except that you can improve your crit rate with gear.

 

Gediablo

I think this can be understood in 2 ways. Either that they removed the part where only Slow had an effect on bosses or that it now works like it does today (on trash not bosses) but for all slowing effects.

What slowing effects out there needs to be tested with the next version of TtW?:
- Slow (mage)
- Frostbolt (mage)
- Frostfirebolt (mage)
- Blizzard (mage)
- Cone of Cold (mage)
- Infected Wounds (druid)
- Thunder clap (warrior)
- Hamstring (warrior)
- Judgement of the Just (paladin)
- Judgement of Justice (paladin)
- Waylay (rogue)
- Mindflay (priest)
- Earth Bind totem (shaman)
- Frost shock (shaman)
- Curse of tongues (warlock)
- Improved Icy Touch (death knight)
- Frost trap (hunter)
- Deathfrost (enchanting)


Probably a lot of other effects I forgot. I didn't add daze effects at all.

Slow Fall is now castable on others.

 

Vanadi

I suggest testing for Blade Twisting instead as that is a talent much more common for rogues in raids.

 

Obfu

This seems relevant:
How should one respond to a clearcasting? The benefits change depending on where in the cycle you are, and your current mana state.

CC-MBAR would be powerful, so stick with using MBAR ASAP?

If AB procs CC-

Cast an additional AB? If a normal cost AB +15% is good, wouldn't a second +15% for free be better? Would need to be balanced against using the CC crit buff on an AB vs. ABar. At first thought this seems the proper play.

IF ABAR procs CC- First guess is to carry on with whatever you would have cast next without CC. AM might be considered as a mana management tool.

Under your CD stack the choices might not all be the same . . .

 

Enthorn

I asked the same question, until the obvious (well, in hind-sight) answer was pointed out to me by several members in this thread. Someone asked the same question in another thread, to which I replied the following:

...the slow from Frostbolt and Frostfire bolt won't apply to the boss since those are movement slowing effects. It seems only casting speed effects apply to bosses, and these include Frost Fever, Thunder Clap, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, and of course Slow.

This seems like the most logical meaning behind Torment the Weak. There's no reason for any other slowing/snaring effects to affect bosses, and all of those slow/snare effects that you listed already work on non-boss targets (with the obvious exception of targets that are immune).

 

kadgar

So finally, we are back the age old situation, that every mage specs absolutely needs 18 points in arcane. (Btw: why is A.Blast not in the list of TtW spells?)
This was the reason for the first major mage review.
Blizzard did touch and talked about this talent, it is disturbing that they seem to not know / not care about this problem.

Right now TtW is a "fix" which upps the dmg of fire(-ball), arcane specs and to a smaller extent frost, to bring them more in line with frostfire. But instead of buffing every (not frostfire) spec with a stupid talent, they should have tuned down frostfire dmg and upping mage dmg in general.
Frost gets the least benefit out of this change, because frostbolt is not affected by spell impace (why?).


Blizzard nerf is understandable. Well somewhat, "this whon't go live" (Chilled to the Bone as new talent, too extreme together with imp. Blizzard and Permafrost) was my immediate reaction when I first saw this talent in Beta. I always wondered why this wasn't changed in Beta already. A bit sad that it's now weaker than before WotLK (70% instead of 75%).


The buff for arcane is very needed, but arcane still can't provide the 10% crit debuff on its own.
So you're either very restricted in your spec, needing 18 points fire, cannot spec arcane/frost and have to skip several interesting arcane talents, or relying on a "slave" for the debuff whi is both kinda sad. (dual specs might help here)

A useful dmg glyph for arcane is hopefully still on the agenda...


Overall it's a quick fix for arcane (partly) with a stupid talent and it's only a matter of time until someone frapses a [get a BG buff, get 3 AB stacks and a MBproc(+ clearcastproc), activate AP+IV and unload a MBAM+ABrr+PoM ABlast or MBAM+Pom AB+ABarr ] and everybody cries for nerfes.

Ghostcrawler postet later in the thread that they are only working on their list of concerns. So they don't take a look at the big picture, don't solve the underlying problems, just fix the symptomes. And because of the big problems never solved, their list of concerns never gets smaller ...


PS: How does the 2pc T3 setbonus work with equipping / unequipping set items?
Frostfire Regalia 2 pieces
E. g. when arcane specced the cd. is 2 min, you use evocation and after 1 min (some trash) you equipp 2pc T3. Does it reduce the active cooldown when you equipp the items so you can now use evocation? Or does it only reduce cd when you have the items equipped when casting, so you have to equipp 2pc T3 right before evocation. And what does happen if you unequipp the items, cd going up from 52sec to 1:52?

 

Enthorn

18.53.0 is only slightly ahead of Frostfire's 0.53.18, so much so that it is almost trivial to even compare them. In best-in-slot gear situations, the difference is so small that you'd be better off with Frostfire if mana is a problem, and Fireball if the 3% Focus Magic crit is going to incredibly help someone in the raid. Then again, when RNG gives more crits to a Frostfire spec, it will see higher DPS returns than Fireball, as well. If Fireball and Frostfire are equal, and crit on a fight increases at the same rate, eventually Frostfire will overtake Fireball, if not for mana issues alone due to Burnout and Frost Channeling working for and against crits and all spells (pyroblast, living bomb).

 

Anobix

Exactly the information I was looking for. I assumed that with even more gear scaling in T8 and so forth that assuming they don't kill our crit rating it would be far superior in damage.

 

Pasture

Has anyone ran any dps figures calculating dps for cycles involving 1/2/3 stacks of arcane blast before you throw an arcane barrage? Given that arcane barrage right now is the spell you want to get back to as soon as possibe I'm interested to see how big an impact the changes will actually have on dps. It's all very well having a mana dump but it will need to do considerably more dps if it's to be worth using.

Couple of other points:

1) Arcane Flows should reduce the cooldown of Mirror Image as well.
2) Arcane needs to be able to provide the 10% raid crit buff WITHOUT speccing into fire. If not arcane dps should be higher to make up for the lack of raid utility.

 

Zeldyrr

I'm a little confused by the discussion of arcane rotations under the proposed changes (in this thread and others). Many people have posted that a simple AB --> ABr rotation (w/ MBAM on procs immediately) is to be used in a non-burn situation.

With the AB having a 2.5 second cast (affected by haste) and ABr having a 3 second cooldown (not affected by haste) wouldn't that situation soon become (assuming ~2.2 second AB):

AB-->ABr-->AB-->(wait 0.8 seconds)-->ABr-->AB-->(wait 0.8 seconds)-->ABr ...

Does the math really show arcane competing with FFB with that much downtime? Are we back to needing a filler spell? Or perhaps AB-->AB-->ABr, despite the decreased mana efficiency?

 

◊ nathanbp

If your AB is 2.2 seconds, your global cooldown is going to be approx 1.4 seconds, so your casting time between ABr's in a 1 AB cycle is going to be 3.6 seconds still. You need enough haste to reduce a 4 second cast (Arcane Blast's 2.5 + 1 Global cooldown at 1.5) to less than 3 seconds before you start having a problem.

What I'm really worried about for this change is if they will actually manage to make the AB buff correctly. If it is applied on spell hit, you will likely not be able to cast ABr right afterward to consume the buff as your client won't have heard about it from the server yet. This is the same problem that led to alternating AB and Frostbolt when ramping up in TBC arcane spec (your client didn't hear about the haste buff until after your starting casting your next AB if you cast them in a row). I guess since the PTR is up now someone could tell us if they fixed this problem?

edit: Changed to less than 3 seconds (at exactly 3 the cycle still works).