Nemantopia

I think this is actually part of the core of the problem. Who has the lowest base mana, barring having none? We do, the class that is defined by mana-based DPS o-O say what now? Theoretically speaking, mana costs are now based on base mana, so effects that replenish %base should be equal for all classes, right? Yeah, sure, because our rotations are all defined of the same / a-very-similar-mix of base mana spells on cooldowns? We don't? Oh. Well, surely it averages out based on base vs use of GCD and cast time? No? Hmmm. Well then, surely it must be designed so that our optimal rotations are managable with our mana pool, giving us a DPS dump for excess and options for low mana? Oh...just that first part? Particularly, I'm looking at drain mechanics, or use of mana shield to absorb raid damage [optimally to prevent cast time loss]. Really big hits! Really large number drains that aren't based on % of mana pool! So, instead of having a large pool to absorb this kind of hit, a large regeneration rate to replenish to compensate, or a method to reliably evade that doesn't suffer large DPS loss...we take the hit like everyone else, and suddenly have around twice the problem with such a mechanic.

Thematically, this makes sense...to an extent. What's that you say? The three 'hybrid' [two functional hybrids, one DPS type hybrid] classes are ranked with three of the four top mana pools/regen. So we're the worst hit by any kind of effect that is going to slap our mana, and our evasion of such boils down to Ice Block and Evocation [which is lost DPS]. I realize my tone probably sounds like I'm complaining, but it's more of a confused misunderstanding...why is all this true? Hunter pets gained significant AoE evasion to counteract [rightly] the imbalance caused by their pet dying every time a boss used an AoE. Warlocks similarly have their 'other half' protected in some way. But our protection of our vital half is completely reactive, or requires us to use our only reliable evasion.

The redesigned mana gem, having Evocation at all without being Arcane [and significantly down from an 8 min. CD], Mage Armor, the list does go on about how we've gotten the eye and have an improved experience. But our trash regen boils down to pill popping like TBC, and spam mana gem [instead of both pots AND gems]. Increase in relative amount restored? Excellent. Gear that specifcally boosts these? Superb. Evocation SHOULD be different from other restoration mechanics. The risks involved with Evocation make it balancing for such a strong factor, but the primary problem is the '8 seconds of no DPS vs other mechanics that use 1 GCD or thereabouts...except they can used while moving, when you would otherwise not be casting'. It's clear that spirit is still 'that stat', even for specs that can reach 90% regen while casting, but I just don't see having it grant us additional stat benefits as a real option.

From the option presented so far:
1) Spirit influencing mana-gems. This can work in a lot of ways, from lowering the cooldown, increasing the charges [or a chance to do so], a straight +return. This is a sound idea that works on a mechanic we already use religiously...boring, but effective. An additional option I thought of would be to have a mana gem return more mana based on the %your overall mana pool is at [% of mana pool AFTER buffs], which would make it more interesting and useful against fights with a significant drain mechanic, as well as between pulls if it continued to restore the current amount but could restore, say, potentially double when you are below...15%? 10%?...of your full pool.

2) Armor redesign [the spells, not the gear]. From completely redesigning Mage and Molten to creating a mid-way armor, this has potential for changing how our regeneration works. Examples could be having Molten armor have a built in mini-MoE that restores 5-15% of a spell's mana cost on a crit, having Mage Armor also apply a multiplier to the regen formula [1.5?].

3) Evocation changes. Ideas vary from having a variable cooldown based on completed tics, removing tics and turning it into a true per-mili [or whatever smallsmall increment] regen, having it apply a +X% damage buff after completion [again, based on completed duration], and fully redesigning Evocation. I proposed something like a click buff still vulnerable to damage interruption, but thinking about this I don't particuarly like it. Obviously, mixes of proposals stand as options.

4) Change to how spirit based regeneration functions for Mages. Actually changing the formula (wary of this), having mages apply a default modifier to it (1.1? 1.2?), giving mage talents added base regeneration...options.

5) Add mana dumps to Fire and Frost. This gives the more efficient builds options for having excess mana, which handles part of the mana management issue of 'hey, I have more than I can ever use', rather like Arcane Blast spam...the flip side of the mana management coin. Being higher DPS but being significantly lower DPM makes the spell unnatractive for normal use but a perfect drain for excess mana...sound familiar?


Overall, I'd say Mage mana and such has improved vastly, but give its overall standing a C+. It's just fine when you're in community college and state universities, serves you fine in the wide world, but good luck taking the hard courses at private Us and medical school with that kind of test results and crunch preformance.

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Properly changed, Spirit can do this without affecting our actual DPS stats. Not needing to evocate or recast your mana gem, and otherwise making it so we can pass up on such options and/or use a mana-dump spell to increase DPS will make spirit more than 'that stat'.

 

flyinfungi

I believe Blizzards intent was to make mages "The master of AOE".

Changes in blizzard and Blizzard's attempt to make flamestrike better and the introduction of living bomb bring this concept in line.

As for evocation I dont buy the concept that you should penalize a player for using an ability a disincentive. You should make using an ability an incentive. That's smart designing.

I am not sure if Blizzard means for mages to use evocation during single dps encounters, but for spamming aoe on trash.

Brainstorming off the top of my head with what may make evo cool and in line with the mage concept would be incorporating some kind of aoe effect. Maybe damaging, maybe utility.

Fungi cause the great majority, an estimated two-thirds, of infectious plant diseases. They include all white and true rusts, smuts, needle casts, leaf curls, mildew, sooty molds, and anthracnoses; most leaf, fruit, and flower spots; cankers; blights; scabs, root, stem, fruit, and wood rots; wilts; leaf, shoot, and bud galls; and many others. -Encyclopedia Britannica

 

solbergb

So speaking of aoe on trash and the mage mana recovery stuff.

I did a speed run of Culling of Stratholme recently where I was able to pretty much aoe every encounter, using mostly mana gems and evocate to top off mana while running around. There were a few tics of drinking here or there when Arathas gets into his monologues, but it went pretty well. This was in molten armor with zero mp5 while casting, a frostfire build using blizzard most of the time. The mana gem and evocation cooldowns spaced neatly together, allowing pretty efficient use of them.

Sustained aoe is a lot easier, and the DPS is better relative to a single target rotation than it was in BC. If you've got the fire talents, burst aoe is also better but can still get you into mana trouble.

 

Mystiq

I've been wanting to add this for 3 hours now, barring password problems.

That said, I had a few thoughts. What if Spirit affected the damage of wands? I also agree that Mage mana regeneration is a bit weird. If you look at Warlocks, at least in TBC, they were designed around a relatively short OOM-time, around a minute. As such, they were expected to run out of mana and have to use Life Tap. With the discovery of mana potions, their DPS ran up when they discovered they could avoid the GCD hit and just spam pots. What if Mages were designed around this as well?

I also thought it'd be interesting if Mana Gems had a built-in secondary effect that was more powerful the less mana you had when you used it, such as more spell power, more haste or more crit.

 

Swindley

I like this idea alot! It opens up so many interesting uses, while still maintaining mana as something to be managed. You could pop it at the start of a fight (after spending abit of mana), if there's a long fight and you expect to use it again. Or maybe you'd use it during heavy aoe phases (when you have to aoe, not boss aoe), or when low on mana for some reason. (Mana detonation comes to mind). It would also be interesting and unique to the mage class. I guess it should last abit longer than 8 seconds though, but that's up for the balancing team to decide. It would allow for using mana heavy rotations for a limited time as well, spicing up playstyle abit. (for example fireblast, if that is still worthwile to cast, it usually is on trash). Maybe save it for an emergency for bloodlust to be sure you have mana to go all out when it's important.

 

Althea

Consider also removing the mage from the 5 seconds rule while under the effect of that buff

Something like 10 seconds of "free of cost" spells and mana regeneration, i guess my mage will regenerate around 500 mana, few, but better than nothing...

Something like this could also take spirit on another level, or just add a spirit buff to the cast itself, like the old evocation

 

Borland

Yesterday i was tryng naxramas normal , and this ring drops :
[Ring of Holy Cleansing]

I bid on it because its better than the craps i have, i win the roll , and the whole raid was "oh stop joking , thats a healing ring!".
And the ring automaticly goes to a paladin healer ... I was like " errrm why" ?
And the answer made me smile grimly "BECAUSE IT HAS SPIRIT , YOUR CLASS DOESNT USE SPIRIT!" :P

 

Althea

Paladin healer? lol

Indeed it's more usefull to a priest, but a paladin... lol

Since blizz removed healing bonus from the game, in raid there must be some kind of rule for healing and dps items, we actually use the "spi+haste+spell" rule for non pala healers wich have prio, then comes dps and palas
When the item have spell + crit it's dps + pala prio and so on

 

cbags

Seems you got borked by raid leaders not knowing much about the game in general. The name on that item is even in flavor for a fire mage. Holy "Cleansing" is commonly associated with killing everything, as a means of "cleansing"

 

galzohar

Holy paladins use spirit just the same as molten-armor-using mages. However priests/druids do seem to use spirit a lot more than any other class.

 

securitron

I've been of the belief for some time now that there should be a baseline mage ability to convert wand damage into mana. It could:
a) make better wands actually better rather than the 3-4 stat point differences between tiers
b) give a viable option @ 0 mana 0 gems

It would provide something to do at 0 mana, rather than just wand and wait, but would not affect PvP at all or be something that you would choose to do at any point in time other than OOM. Intuitively 100% damage for mana from wanding seems like it would be fair as well as useful.

I've spent many fights (where we don't have replenishment) waiting out the last 1-2 minutes for sufficient mana to do *anything*. And having to choose between molten armor and mage armor is a pretty huge DPS decision.

 

Enthorn

Securitron, see my post here, from the previous page, as I talked about wand-to-mana functionality as well. A few questions though for you...

How do you envision that this would have no implications in PvP? I have run out of mana in an arena match before. Usually it involves either playing against a druid and failing to burst them down, thus dragging the match on and on, as they're one of the few classes that is terribly difficult to outlast. Or, against a mana draining team.

Additionally, I am not sure that a 1:1 ratio would be entirely fair, I merely used that ratio for demonstration. With wand damage esculating as it is, you could effectively crit with a wand shot and gain ~1011 mana back if it were 1:1, using the best PvE wand available. The DPS of that wand would translate into 1439 Mp5.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how well I like the idea of being able to wand at any point in time. I think if they were to actually implement anything like this, it would have to have a prerequisite, such as returning mana only when your current mana pool is below a percentage of your maximum mana.

 

Nemantopia

Wand/mana-return could be a feasible option, but like you mention has enough implications to require quite a bit of thought before just throwing it into the game. I think 1:1 would be a good BASELINE, with the deciding factor(s) being your current mana% (and possibly spirit and Mage Armor). For example have 100% be an assumed baseline for...I have no idea how much spirit, let's assume baseline for a T7.25 arcane mage with comprable non-tier gear in other slots, no spirit gems, and raid buffs?...wearing Mage Armor at 0 mana. Assume that Mage Armor provides a base 7-15% of that 100% at all times, make spirit an equation that can buff you over 100% in presumably to come gear while wearing mage armor, and then have % of your current TOTAL mana apply a modifier.

So, example breakdown:
-Mage Armor = 15% wand damage to mana return
-Zero spirit = 50%, building based on a [linear?] equation from there to the aforementioned level
-Zero to 2.5% mana = apply 1.05 modifier
-2.6% mana to 10% mana = apply 0.85 modifier
-11% mana to 17.5% mana = apply 0.7 modifier
-17.6% mana to 22% mana = apply 0.5 modifier
-22.1% mana to ...50% mana? = apply 0.3 modifier
-51% to 75% mana = apply 0.1 modifier
-above 75% mana = apply 0.01 modifier

I'm sure that a logritmic equation or such would be the best way to decide the modifier so that it's actually continually changing based on your exact mana%, but the above would be an example on gaining needed mana at 0 without unbalancing things in the PvP world. Still, it's both an example and pure theory, but the logic is you're already denied much of the PvE benefit by not wearing Mage Armor [which you're likely to do in situations you know you'll need mana] and having lower than expected spirit.

 

Elnombre

I must say i had envisioned this idea of wanding giving mana returns that scaled with spirit, and with blizzards current propensity for class hemogonisation, with the addition of abilities such as aspect of the viper. This kind of mechanic would definately seem like a fair and fitting addition. Its kind of killing 2 birds with 1 stone, gives mages a ligitamate 0 cooldown mana recovery mechanic while also making our wands more than just a stat stick.

Although can anyone think of a current in game fight where this would be even used? personally the only fight im having mana problems with atm is Sarth 3d. Granted all content for now is "entry level" and with the coming patch changes the more mana hungry arc/fire build maybe becoming popular this idea could have legs for future content.

If the numbers were right this could become a really interesting playstyle change but i think a few things would have to change as previously hinted.

1. base mana cost of some/all spells would have to be increased to encourage the mechanic is actually used and not just sidestepped, by pot/gem spamming or regen stacking on gear.

2. Dps while not wanding would have to be increased to compinsate.

point 2 espescially would have a lot of pvp ramifications since mages are already quite bursty, giving full mana mages perhaps too much damage potential in any short encounter/5 mans/pvp etc

 

Nemantopia

@Elnombre: actually, DPS would not really have to be increased at all, for many of the reasons you listed. If Blizzard's response to proper balance is class homogenization, then it would merely be a step in the right direction of correcting an existing imbalance, and could have a similar idea applied to Priests. Assuming, however, that it isn't, and mana becomes an issue in future content, then you run into the same issue: balancing Mage output against other classes, and having to deal with hybrids suddenly beating Mage DPS flat out. If the idea is to keep output similar, then giving Mages [and possibly Priests] a true OOM regeneration option would prevent situations where Mages properly managing their mana have no options in more intensive raid situations. Toss on the fact that 'properly managing mana' in this case probably means using Mage Armor instead of Molten, and the issue exacerbates itself. If the only option for a Mage to remain sustainable is to be below everyone else's DPS [sound familiar?] or intentionally run out and still average out below...well, all the different levels of 'No. Just...no.', ESPECIALLY with the new design paradigm, is poor.

And I didn't even...nevermind. That belongs in a 'state of Mages [and game balance]' post.

 

Elnombre

This is why the numbers would really have to be spot on. Being realistic i kind of know this has never been nor will ever be the case.

We would likely become a kind of tbc destro warlock where we find ways of bypassing the regen mechanics as much as possible so we can lengthen the "burn" cycle to a level blizzard probably never intended.

 

Grubsnik

Hmm, currently i see 3-4 setups for mages
Frost: Too efficient to care for mana (don't really need any spirit).
Frostfire: Efficient, but might still require you to care for mana(gets minimal use of spirit from pyromaniac change)
Fire: Higher dps, but only if you have the mana for it (gets 30% from pyromaniac, x% from clearcasting and up to 20% from meditation).
Arcane: The mana-management spec, where you can burn it all in seconds, make it stretch for ages, or anywhere in between (oddly enough, this spec gets less spirit regen than fire spec, but can convert extra mana to damage more easily).

Going from Frost->Frostfire->Fire is generally considered to be an increase in both mana consumption/management and an increase in dps. The jury is still partially out on Arcane spec, but ideally it should be the hardest spec to manage, but offer the greatest rewards. It could also end up being the mobility/pvp spec, since we are getting dual-specs.

Anyhow, on to some suggestions:
1. Increase wand damage, possibly add in some regen from damage, but in a 25 man raid setting, you should expect to have JoW up anyways, so you are already getting mana from hits while getting 100% spirit regen.
2. Reduce cost of armors, if we are to manage mana mid-fight, we need to we able to switch between them. Otherwise the swap costs more than we ever can gain from them.
3. Make MBAR be a 100% haste to the next channeled (arcane?) spell. This means you can either get a swarm of arcane missiles, or do a fast-evoc on procs. If you omit the arcane requirement, it allows you do fire off an intense blizzard on procs too, which might be really neat (don't know if arcane is suffering from poor AoE or not).

 

Silabiss

This is not true. That ordering may apply to mana consumption, but it's definitely not the current consensus or reality of dps ordering.

 

LBXZero

My thoughts on mana consumption right now is I feel like pre-BC with drinking. Before BC, I needed two drinks to refill my mana from 0. During BC, I was able to fully restore mana well within one drink usually. Now I am almost back to 2 drinks again.

One thought for the drinks is to have Spirit improve all mana regen mechanics. Instead of just health and mana outside of combat, it improves Evocation beyond the 60%, mana gems and pots, and mana regen buffs by a percentage similar to how Intellect improves crit rating.

Another thought, maybe Spirit can do a shift like set our base mana down 1% and at the same time increase the mana per Intellect by 1. That would make the base mana of 3268 go down by 33 mana, but your mana pool increases by your current Int score. Think of like 200 Spirit reduces Base Mana Pool by 3% (cutting spell costs by 3%) and add 3x your Int in mana.

Also, I feel Arcane Intellect and Arcane Brilliance are almost too weak to be worth worrying about. Yes it is a buff everyone can have, but watching my mana go up 600 seems like "Why am I casting this?", but at 80 it will be 900 mana. And then a priest casts PW:Fort and my health jumps 2K.

Just some thoughts worth giving out...

 

pocketmage

Frost's efficiency drops considerably once you get your haste rating over 500 or so. Due to how the tree scales with haste, I'd say in anything more than blues (which is quite easy at this point) your rank system changes some.

I'd say that in naxx10/25 mixed gear, it goes:
ffb > frost > fire > arcane

And in Uldaar it will more likely be:

ffb > fire > arcane > frost


Haste scaling seems to be forgotten wrt to frost. Considering that factor, it is the worst of the options available in 3.08. Both b/c of lousy mana efficiency in good gear as well as its lousy dps output due to pvp. The tree will be in serious trouble in a month or two. I'd imagine that 700+ haste rating will be borderline haste cap for frost due to the massive dump IV and Heroism put on your mana bar.

 

Neuromaster

What makes haste rating affect frost's efficiently differently than ffb or fire? x% more spells per unit time -> x% more mana spent per unit time should be roughly the same over different specs, and seems like a pretty good approximation at first glance. I must be missing something. Is it something like a significantly higher percentage of frost DPS coming from mana-hungry (compared to WE) frostbolts, or do relative stat weights for frost push that spec towards more haste gear rather than +dam or crit?

Fireballin'

 

pocketmage

+dmg
+haste

Crit soft caps at around 16% due to available raid buffs (winter's chill, ret judge, boomkin, molten armor etc..) b/c you start pushing over 100% when FoF shatters occur. You can pick up more crit after that point, but the dps increase per rating point is heavily diminished and it ends up being a big waste of ilvl stat allocation. Your best increase comes from haste as a secondary stat to +dmg. Looking at Naxx gear, and the types of stats on cloth gear, you go after the +dmg/haste gear.


I was in a mixture of blues and naxx10 gear a few weeks back and had over 550 haste rating. When I gathered enough crit pieces (which collected dust in my bank till I respec'd), I went ffb and my haste dropped down to about 250 after swapping in the gear. The other specs will favor crit more, so haste won't climb up nearly as fast as it will for frost.

You also tend to favor haste effect on activation trinkets because there more haste buffs you stack, the more extra "free" haste you get due to haste buffs stacking multiplicatively instead of additively. Heroism, totem, IV, and haste trinket end up boosting your haste up further b/c you use them all at once. Factor in cold snap and you get the picture. Comparing my mana efficiency in my current gear with what it was 3 weeks ago, I am much more efficient now. MUCH MORE. And it's not b/c my mana bar grew by about 1k or 2k.

In Uldaar and beyond, haste rating for a frost mage will climb upwards of 700 rating and then some I'd imagine. Making frost as much as a mana dump as arcane was in TBC, imo.


Long term, blizz needs to do something about frost b/c the tree would truly be screwed.
-terrible mana efficiency
-subpar dps



In arena, frost definitely has the advantage in 5s, but in 2s and 3s arcane and fire do pretty good.

 

galzohar

If something gives a multiplicative x% haste bonus, it'll increase your casting speed in relation to the casting speed you'd have without it by the same % regardless of how many other haste buffs you have active, so the relative strength (extradps/currentdps) of uncontrollable multiplicative haste buffs doesn't depends on your current haste buffs. Additive buffs have their relative effect diminish as you get more of them. Of course you can look at it as additive buffs being fixed and multiplicative buffs scaling eachother up if you look at raw dps # and not relative dps, which is pretty much the same thing. Anyway my point was that just the fact you have more multiplicative haste buffs doesn't change how good another multiplicative haste buff is compared to, say, spell damage (ignoring mana of course).

 

homet

Why not just use the innervate mechanic?

It would seem that the innervate mechanic works very well for druids and this could be applied to mages exceedingly easily. Evocate with the 2 minute cooldown plus the single GCD required would make it extremely useful and could become a critical ally for Arcane Blast "heavy burn cycle" approaches. This, we all know, ain't happenin. The best thing we could possibly hope for is using part of an IV to use an uninterruptible 4.5 second evocate. It's no good, but perhaps part of the DPS calculation as a sacrifice for a heavier burn cycle using ABx3+...

 

◊ Kyth

It depends on whether they want to create more classes with DPS penalities for mana (hunter, warlock) or without penalties (druid.)

Personally I prefer them with penalities (and correspondingly increasing the spell cast cost to force you to use these regen abilities) because I think it makes for an interesting game, because then they become spammable. Innervate isn't spammable, it's on a long cooldown.


When you have something like lifetap or AotV, where you go into a lower-dps regen period, and have a higher-dps DPS period, there's an additional skill element (at least for locks) of knowing when and how to use it.

You also become lower DPS on mana-drain fights: something I think is intended. Otherwise, mana drain is irrelevent since you just spam free mana at yourself whenever you want.

Also, nicely, mana regen becomes a DPS boost: that's why warlocks were so strong pre-TBC, it was that Blizzard didn't realize what locks knew -- mana regen = DPS for them. Throw a spriest in a lock's group and he *well* surpasses any DPS that you want him to be doing. So if you have that setup, then spirit really is at least a small dps boost for a mage.

You won't have runaway scaling now though because, for DPS, replenishment is tightly constrained since more INT will never be worth sacrificing actual stats for, and JoW has been beaten with a stick and left for dead in an alley.


I don't know *what* the mechanic should be, but I think we'd be best served by:

- increasing our spell costs
- receiving an ability that has no cooldown, reduces our DPS by "X" for X seconds (could be by 100%)
- Blizzard runs simulations to verify that we still match hunters/warlocks despite the DPS loss -- a minor dps boost might be required


Where it falls down, I suppose, is pvp, unfortunately. Mages appear to be designed to go OOM? Although I'd imagine many mages would give up some of their burst in exchange for not having a "you're useless" timer in pvp at all -- maybe I'm wrong though, I haven't pvp'd since switching to mage.

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