Mirror Image - threat calculations

Maje · 12/28/08, 9:42 PM

I'm not sure where this thread should go, as it started in the frostfire one and it doesn't seem to fit there nor am I convinced it should be in the UI/Addons.

Anyway, as you well know after casting MI your threat 'disapears' from Omen and you are left guessing as to where you are on threat compared to the tanks. After reading a curios remark in Omen source namely "Threat can be negative due to temporary threat reduction effects such as Fade and Mirror Image (-410057408)." I wanted to try and check if it's in fact possible to derive the 'imaginary' threat i.e. the one you would have if MI just faded from blizzard threat API.

So I changed a couple of lines in Omen to print out my threat if it is negative and engaged a mob in Crystalsong, what I did was Ice Lance to get the initial threat then sheeped and cast MI, here are the results.

* Initial Threat is the one done before casting MI (Ice Lance + sheep, sheep does 120 threat, Ice Lance depends on damage and Frost Channeling)
* MI Threat is the threat blizzard API announces after casting MI

Initial Threat --> MI Threat
622 --> -410003188
628 --> -410002558
629 --> -410002468
749 --> -409990468

* 749 was done by casting Ice Lance then Sheep and Sheep again, ie. 509 threat from Ice Lance and 120x2 from sheep.

Firstly it seems that in fact it is possible to get the 'imaginary' threat however I don't seem to be able to find the conversion as the numbers do follow the expected progression but the scale is not 1 to 1. What I can notice is that they all end in 8 but that doesn't help.

So, if anyone can see the pattern in that please drop a post, and if anyone would like to test it for himself if you get Omen 3.0.5 you can add just after the comment "-- So we cap the minimum threat to display at 0. We use the special value -1 to indicate nil here." the following lines and it'll print the MI threat in the default chat frame.

-- So we cap the minimum threat to display at 0. We use the special value -1 to indicate nil here.
if threatValue and threatValue < 0 and UnitGUID("player") == guid then
	DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Threat is "..threatValue);
end

EDIT::
Thanks to Zephriel it seems like the important part of the mistery is solved, the constant seems to be -410065408. I'm including a 'fix' for Omen to show your 'real' threat even under MI effect, this is untested and might be erroneous since we still don't know what the last two digits mean.

EDIT2::
Done some testing in various settings/raids looks to be working properly.

The 'fix' for those who know how to edit lua files. (valid for Omen 3.0.5)

if threatValue and threatValue < 0 and UnitGUID("player") == guid then
	threatValue = threatValue + 410065408
end

Omen 3.0.6 supports showing the MI threat: Omen Threat Meter - Addons - Curse

Zaldinar · 12/28/08, 11:00 PM

I'd be curious to see what the images threat is, which should (I think?) be attainable with these macros:

/script isTanking, status, threatpct, rawthreatpct, threatvalue = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("player", "focus")
/script ChatFrame1:AddMessage('You have '..threatvalue..' threat on the focus target');


/script isTanking, status, threatpct, rawthreatpct, threatvalue = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("target", "focus")
/script ChatFrame1:AddMessage('Your target has '..threatvalue..' threat on the focus target');

What you should be able to do, is ice lance pull, then sheep (I assume at this point you're focus sheeping, if not /focus the sheep). Push macro number 1, record the value compared to the damage done and your points in any relevant threat reduction talents. Pop MI, push macro number 1, target a MI copy, push macro number 2, record record record.

I can't currently test macro 2 on my own (damn lazyness, 78 by the end of tonight, that's the goal), but I believe it should work based on what I've observed with my hunter.

What should come of this data wise should fill this table:

Talent Points in Burning Soul / Frost Channeling / Arcane Subtlety:
Damage done and with which spell:
Your Raw Threat value post pull and sheep:
Your Raw Threat value post MI Pop:
MI Raw Threat value:

Maje · 12/29/08, 3:44 AM

Regretfully the Images threat isn't given through the API untill they actually hurt the target (I checked that) and at that point it's anyone's guess how much damage they do as I need to chain sheep untill they stop hitting and the target doesn't hit them back, I'll try something of a kind when I get home from work.

Also do you mean for me to target one of the images when pressing the macros?

For now to fill in the previous values:
Burning Soul: 3/3
Frost Channeling: 3/3
Arcane Subtlety: 0
One Ice Lance was used and one poly except the last result where 2 polys were cast.

Zaldinar · 12/29/08, 4:22 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

Regretfully the Images threat isn't given through the API untill they actually hurt the target (I checked that) and at that point it's anyone's guess how much damage they do as I need to chain sheep untill they stop hitting and the target doesn't hit them back, I'll try something of a kind when I get home from work.

Also do you mean for me to target one of the images when pressing the macros?

For now to fill in the previous values:
Burning Soul: 3/3
Frost Channeling: 3/3
Arcane Subtlety: 0
One Ice Lance was used and one poly except the last result where 2 polys were cast.

Thats not that hard to account for.

And yes, target one of the images. I don't know what unit referer to use in the function to get the MI (pet1? pet2? will it even be a pet?).

If you /combatlog it its easy to pick out which damage event was the MI you had targeted (assuming their threat gain follows a predictable pattern)

Zephriel · 12/29/08, 6:10 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

Initial Threat --> MI Threat
622 --> -410003188
628 --> -410002558
629 --> -410002468
749 --> -409990468

* 749 was done by casting Ice Lance then Sheep and Sheep again, ie. 509 threat from Ice Lance and 120x2 from sheep.

Firstly it seems that in fact it is possible to get the 'imaginary' threat however I don't seem to be able to find the conversion as the numbers do follow the expected progression but the scale is not 1 to 1. What I can notice is that they all end in 8 but that doesn't help.

Actually, if you ignore the last two digits from the MI threat readings, the scale is indeed 1:1. I highlighted the relevant numbers in bold there.

That creates two possibilities that I can see:

1) Threat is actually tracked to at least two decimal places; or
2) The last two digits of the MI threat numbers actually represent something else entirely.

Maje · 12/29/08, 6:26 AM

Originally Posted by Zephriel

Actually, if you ignore the last two digits from the MI threat readings, the scale is indeed 1:1. I highlighted the relevant numbers in bold there.

That creates two possibilities that I can see:

1) Threat is actually tracked to at least two decimal places; or
2) The last two digits of the MI threat numbers actually represent something else entirely.

Nice, good catch, and it makes sense since the last digit is 8 and doesn't change which more then likely shows the last two digits are somekind of identifiers.

Roywyn · 12/29/08, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Zephriel

Actually, if you ignore the last two digits from the MI threat readings, the scale is indeed 1:1. I highlighted the relevant numbers in bold there.

That creates two possibilities that I can see:

1) Threat is actually tracked to at least two decimal places; or
2) The last two digits of the MI threat numbers actually represent something else entirely.

Was thinking something like that as well, since it's roughly a 1:100 scaling.
The only step where it's exactly 1:100 is when another sheep was added. That was with one polymorph which added exactly 120 threat (likely that it's a round number), while the other numbers may differ by decimals as they come from damage.

Something that doesn't add up yet however is the "MI threat".
Assuming "MI threat" = -410057408(Fade/MI base) + 100*"initial threat", which would be the canonic guess, we're off by a bit.
By -7980, -7950, -7960, -7960, which is roughly the same number for all your data.

We wound need some more data to check and confirm that. In particular:
1) Doing little/no threat (Does body pulling get you on Omen/threat API? If not, hit a mob with your bare hands.), then casting MI.
It's to check whether "0 threat + MI" puts you to -410057408, or to "-410057408 - 7960" (+/-20 or so).
2) Doing more threat and then using MI to confirm that it works like we think for large numbers of threat.
Check with around 2K, 5k, 10k, 20k perhaps, just to make sure it works like we think.
3) How is threat after MI fades? In your "749 --> -409990468" example, do you get back to "749" after the 30s are over?
Or do you end up with slightly more or less, some remainder of the "-7960" threat that we couldn't link to anything?

Zaldinar · 12/29/08, 8:10 AM

It also is possible that threat is recorded to further decimal places the same way damage is, and is rounded for display. You can observe that through DoTs like ignite ticking for different numbers per tick, that tend to add up to a rounded average expected value.

Meaning, you see 100 damage, but 10010 threat, really you did 100.1 damage, but it only showed you the 100, and saved internally the .1.

Maje · 12/29/08, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Was thinking something like that as well, since it's roughly a 1:100 scaling.
The only step where it's exactly 1:100 is when another sheep was added. That was with one polymorph which added exactly 120 threat (likely that it's a round number), while the other numbers may differ by decimals as they come from damage.

Something that doesn't add up yet however is the "MI threat".
Assuming "MI threat" = -410057408(Fade/MI base) + 100*"initial threat", which would be the canonic guess, we're off by a bit.
By -7980, -7950, -7960, -7960, which is roughly the same number for all your data.

We wound need some more data to check and confirm that. In particular:
1) Doing little/no threat (Does body pulling get you on Omen/threat API? If not, hit a mob with your bare hands.), then casting MI.
It's to check whether "0 threat + MI" puts you to -410057408, or to "-410057408 - 7960" (+/-20 or so).
2) Doing more threat and then using MI to confirm that it works like we think for large numbers of threat.
Check with around 2K, 5k, 10k, 20k perhaps, just to make sure it works like we think.
3) How is threat after MI fades? In your "749 --> -409990468" example, do you get back to "749" after the 30s are over?
Or do you end up with slightly more or less, some remainder of the "-7960" threat that we couldn't link to anything?

1. I'll check that.
2. Will test it in a raid setting.
3. The threat after MI fades is exactly the number it was before, namely 749 in the above case and it was the same in all the cases.

However to me it seems more likely the last two digits have nothing to do with being the fraction of the threat dealt, especially seeing that in all cases tested the last digit is 8, but agreed more testing is needed.

Zaldinar · 12/29/08, 9:16 AM

Using this macro on Dr Boom:

/script a, b, c, d, t = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("player", "target")
/script if(t ~= nil) then ChatFrame1:AddMessage('You have '..t..' threat on your current target'); end

Counterspell to enter combat, 0 threat
Frostbolt for 1739 damage, 173900 threat
Scorch for 954, 259760 threat

This is specced 2/2 Burning soul 0/3 Frost Channeling, so:

1739 + 954 * 0.9 = 2597.6

Add in a scorch crit for 1631, with two ticks for 327 and 326, 469020 threat

1739 + 954 * 0.9 + (1631 + 327 + 326) * 0.9 = 4653.2

If we assume burning soul doesnt work on ignite...

1739 + 954 * 0.9 + 1631 * 0.9 + 327 + 326 = 4718.5

If we assume the ignite does decimal place damage values (calcing its damage off the crit):

1739 + 954 * 0.9 + 1631 * 1.4 * 0.9 = 4652.66

Invising to clear threat and using Arcane Blast:

AB for 1715, 171500 threat
AB for 1745, 346000 threat
AB crit for 2940, 643650 threat

So crits cause decimal threat. Body pulling a flayer gives 0 threat on entering combat, sheeping initially gives nil threat initial, correct threat once it breaks, looks like the target has to target you before the API will give you a threat value for it. or atleast has to be in combat with you and able to make an action for some amount of time (since Dr Boom doesn't target).

I have as yet been unable to produce anything with anything other than a 0 in the last space.

Edit: The reason I'm questionable of the last space being a flag for something, is the API function used to gather that info returns all kinds of data, the full macro is:

/script isTanking, status, threatpct, rawthreatpct, threatvalue = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("player", "target")
/script ChatFrame1:AddMessage('You have '..threatvalue..' threat on your current target');

Why would they encode a flag into the raw threat value instead of just passing it in another variable?

Zephriel · 12/29/08, 12:37 PM

EDIT: Never mind, Maje disproved this posted theory with one of his tests.

Maje · 12/29/08, 1:40 PM

Did another test, pulled a mob by hitting it, missed - 0 threat, casted MI threat reported -410065408. Also it seems that the threat caused by the images isn't transfered to you.

Zephriel · 12/29/08, 2:08 PM

That's very good news! That means now the previous zero-threat estimate is off by only 1 threat (which is likely attributable to threat decimals) instead of 79-80. I'd say you have a precision reading there.

Maje · 12/30/08, 8:00 AM

What does interest me is Zalindar's threat numbers for crits, specifically that you gain more threat for crits (?), I'll try to do some tests on that as well.

Anobix · 12/30/08, 10:47 AM

This seems like a minor quibble. You said that you will be submitting a fix for recount in your original post, do you mean Omen?

I can really see this helping us a lot for after the 30 second period (or less depending on if Blizzard fixes that when the 3 images die that we gain the threat back instead of waiting for the 30 seconds to be gone).

cbags · 12/30/08, 10:53 AM

I doubt they would do that, as the images seem to die fairly easily if there is any splash damage. Leaving it as a "hidden" threat buff that lasts for 30 seconds, is probably less problematic, or troublesome to program. Would be nice if that were visible though, as it would be easier to track, then again, maybe easier to track isn't their intent

Maje · 12/30/08, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Anobix

This seems like a minor quibble. You said that you will be submitting a fix for recount in your original post, do you mean Omen?

I can really see this helping us a lot for after the 30 second period (or less depending on if Blizzard fixes that when the 3 images die that we gain the threat back instead of waiting for the 30 seconds to be gone).

Yes, I meant Omen, the fix is included in the first post if you know how to edit lua files. What the 'fix' does is just show your threat as if you didn't cast MI.

1.It only does this for you not other mages/priests, although it can be modified to show that for other mages as well (not sure about the values of Fade fro priests, might be the same).
2. It wasn't thoroughly tested, it works fine for me though.
3. There might be very minor incosistencies with the threat, but as far as I know it shouldn't differ by much (single digits?).

Hopefully Omen's author would add the feature to show your threat under MI (maybe specially colored so you can see it as 'imaginary' threat).

Theonus · 12/30/08, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Anobix

This seems like a minor quibble. You said that you will be submitting a fix for recount in your original post, do you mean Omen?

Its likely he means Recount. There is a threat meter addon for Recount so I imagine this is what he refers to. But could be wrong.

robbymo · 12/30/08, 1:05 PM

I don't suppose that anyone can give a quick 'how to edit lua files for dummies' lesson. I hate that feeling you get when you have had a couple nice crits and you know that your 30 seconds is getting ready to expire.

◊ nathanbp · 12/30/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by robbymo

I don't suppose that anyone can give a quick 'how to edit lua files for dummies' lesson. I hate that feeling you get when you have had a couple nice crits and you know that your 30 seconds is getting ready to expire.

Here's instructions for Windows (For Mac, just replace Notepad with some other text editor):
Open Notepad. Go to File...Open... and find your World of Warcraft directory (Usually C:\Program Files\World of Warcraft). Then go to Interface\Addons\Omen under that. Note that if you have Vista, your Addons directory is somewhere else. Type *.* in file name and press enter. Select and open the file Omen.lua. Go to Edit...Find... (or hit ctrl-f), and type in "So we cap" (without quotes), and hit find next. Go to the Format menu and make sure Word Wrap is turned off (no check mark). After the line with "So we cap" on it, insert the following 3 lines:

		if threatValue and threatValue < 0 and UnitGUID("player") == guid then
			threatValue = threatValue + 410065408
		end

Save the file and exit Notepad.

Zephriel · 12/30/08, 2:32 PM

There's a problem with that formula, though.

We were able to ignore the last two digits of the MI threat readings when analyzing the threat numbers ourselves, but we can't have Omen doing that, too. For purposes of converting MI threat to non-, wouldn't we need Omen to handle the two on a 100:1 scaling ratio? In other words, wouldn't we need to use a formula like...

threatValue = (threatValue / 100) + 4100654.08

...to achieve a true precision threat reading during MI?

Plugging the numbers from your initial data set into the original formula, it looks like Omen would end up displaying your "actual" threat during MI at 100x its correct level. From a math standpoint, the MI threat readings should need to be scaled down before using any addition.

Maje · 12/30/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Zephriel

There's a problem with that formula, though.

We were able to ignore the last two digits of the MI threat readings when analyzing the threat numbers ourselves, but we can't have Omen doing that, too. For purposes of converting MI threat to non-, wouldn't we need Omen to handle the two on a 100:1 scaling ratio? In other words, wouldn't we need to use a formula like...

threatValue = (threatValue / 100) + 4100654.08

...to achieve a true precision threat reading during MI?

Plugging the numbers from your initial data set into the original formula, it looks like Omen would end up displaying your "actual" threat during MI at 100x its correct level. From a math standpoint, the MI threat readings should need to be scaled down before using any addition.

Well, not really, since threat that is shown is scaled to /100 from the actual reported (by blizzard's API) value, that is if your threat is 10 the reported value would be 1000, and in our case we don't need to do anything since Omen already scales the displayed values. The only inconsistency could come if we get a threat value where the last digit is not 8 (not sure if that can happen during MI) but even then the 'error' would be at most 1 point of threat.

BluestormDNA · 12/30/08, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Maje

Hopefully Omen's author would add the feature to show your threat under MI (maybe specially colored so you can see it as 'imaginary' threat).

Well, now that it is possible to see the agro when casting MI im looking forward to the color change (and maybe on the future a 30s timer on the bar and disabling sounds and warnings)
Could it be possible to change the color temporaly by changing the "mycolorbar" variable rgb value to another one?
i tried it and i suppose (well in fact im sure) my programing skills must suck hard cause somwhow i manage omen to crash :P
Im sure omen's author will eventually add part if not all of these features but meanwhile anyone willing to add some lines of code to share with the mages with "less intelect" ?

◊ Kyth · 12/30/08, 9:02 PM

I prefer MyThreat to Omen anyways, it just shows a nice compact view of your current threat percent, amount of threat until you pull, and can color code based on relative or absolute threat differentials. Conveniently, the author is a friend of mine, and a bit of begging today got him to incorporate the changes detailed on this thread.

So for the mages who don't want to edit Omen and don't mind a different addon:

MyThreat : WoWInterface Downloads : Ace: Combat

When you're under MI, it shows your real threat, it also puts parentheses around it and colors it light blue so it's clear that your current threat is 'protected' by MI.

There's a configuration option to turn the new feature on and off.

It doesn't show a 30 second bar, but that's an easy mage-specific addon someone could make by detecting when the threat reads negative, and then popping up a bar.

TimWischmeier · 12/31/08, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kyth

It doesn't show a 30 second bar, but that's an easy mage-specific addon someone could make by detecting when the threat reads negative, and then popping up a bar.

If you are using DBM you can easily set up this macro which I am using:

#showtooltip Mirror Image
/dbm timer 30 MI Fade!
/cast Mirror Image

This will start a client side 30 seconds timer with the Text "MI Fade". If you hit this macro while MI is on cooldown it will still start the timer, but that never was a problem for me. I think you are able to set up something similarly on Bigwigs, too.