Mirror Image - threat calculations - Page 2

Xinhuan · 12/31/08, 10:27 AM

Hello,

I am Omen3's author, and because I play a mage as my main, this is actually one of the times I don't have to beg around for other people to test threat stuff. Mirror Image threat has been fairly fascinating to test. I'll answer some questions above.

And yes, target one of the images. I don't know what unit referer to use in the function to get the MI (pet1? pet2? will it even be a pet?).

Mirror Images do not have a valid unitID, or unit referrer. That's because they aren't really pets, they are guardians, kind of like how totems are also guardians, they have an owner and they also generate threat and have their own threat tables.

In order to get threat on MIs, you or someone else in your party must target them to get a valid unitID like "target" "targettarget" or "party1target" or via "mouseover" or "focus".

Actually, if you ignore the last two digits from the MI threat readings, the scale is indeed 1:1. I highlighted the relevant numbers in bold there.

Threat by Blizzard's definition is such that 1 damage generates exactly 100 units of threat. However, this information wasn't known to us until patch 3.0. In order to do threat models and write addons such as KTM and Omen, Kenco initially made a basic assumption that 1 damage generates exactly 1 unit of threat, which is easy to calculate and compare.

Now that UnitThreatDetailedSituation() is available to us, we now know that threat is recorded by Blizzard in a unit that is 100x what we used to. We continue to show threat in the original unit by dividing Blizzard values by 100 so as not to confuse users.

1) Threat is actually tracked to at least two decimal places; or
2) The last two digits of the MI threat numbers actually represent something else entirely.

(1) is correct. That is, Blizzard tracks threat to 1 unit of accuracy (in Blizzard's scale) or 0.01 in Omen's scale. The last 2 digits have no special significance as all of you have been guessing.

You can verify this by wearing a cloak with subtlety enchant on it, and you will see that doing 2% less threat is accounted for properly (rounded off). That is, if you icelance a mob for 1353 damage, with 3/3 Frost Channeling, you will get

135300*0.90*0.98 = 119334.6 threat
and UnitThreatDetailedSituation() will report 119335 threat.

The reason why the last digit seems constant is only because our threat talents minus threat by an even 10% when fully specced 3/3 Frost Channeling or 2/2 Burning Soul (the 2 talents doesn't stack for frostfire bolt) without subtlety cloak enchant.

As a matter of convenience, you generally just chop off the last 2 digits of Blizzard's reported threat as you would rarely need exact accuracy.

What does interest me is Zalindar's threat numbers for crits, specifically that you gain more threat for crits (?), I'll try to do some tests on that as well.

Crits do not generate additional threat just by being a crit. However a crit does do more damage, and more damage simply means you do more threat. What Zalindar may not have been accounting for are procs. For example, there are many trinkets and talents that can proc a buff, and these buffs generate a static amount of threat.

Originally Posted by BluestormDNA

Well, now that it is possible to see the agro when casting MI im looking forward to the color change (and maybe on the future a 30s timer on the bar and disabling sounds and warnings)
Could it be possible to change the color temporaly by changing the "mycolorbar" variable rgb value to another one?
i tried it and i suppose (well in fact im sure) my programing skills must suck hard cause somwhow i manage omen to crash :P
Im sure omen's author will eventually add part if not all of these features but meanwhile anyone willing to add some lines of code to share with the mages with "less intelect" ?

I'm not entirely sure if this is the best solution, but it is indeed a decent suggestion to add a "faded/MI" color. I will also ask around for other ideas well.

What bothers me more is how Blizzard arrived on the number 410065408, random monkey punching? Converted to base 2, the number is 11000011100010001101000000000.

Maje · 12/31/08, 10:36 AM

Many thanks Xinhuan, that's actually great news.

Regarding the 410065408 (magic number), any number I guess would work, they picked one large enough to make sure you won't get to a positive threat during MI. The only thing that alludes me is why make the last digit 8, since afaik all the real threat has the last digit 0 (? not sure if that's true), maybe as an indicator but then as Zalindar noted you could just as easily return another variable from the threat function.

Einhander · 12/31/08, 10:56 AM

With "8" at the end the number perfectly divides by 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 and 512. With "-8" -- only by 8.

I doubt that this info will be of any use to us, just a curiosity sake.

pocketmage · 12/31/08, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Xinhuan

Crits do not generate additional threat just by being a crit. However a crit does do more damage, and more damage simply means you do more threat. What Zalindar may not have been accounting for are procs. For example, there are many trinkets and talents that can proc a buff, and these buffs generate a static amount of threat.

I can confirm that the proc itself, Hot Streak!, gives a static amount of aoe threat. It's very noticeable on Gothik the Harvester. It will proc and all the freshly spawned mobs will run toward me until a healer or tank does something.

epoh · 12/31/08, 2:08 PM

Has anyone been able to track any triggers for threat bugs with MI? Three times last night in Naxx I would hit LB, scorch x2 then MI, and while I was still casting, or in the middle of my balls-out macro (IV, combustion, trinket), the MIs would die and I jumped to the top of the aggro table and was 1-shotted by the boss. This happened once during Maexxna, and twice during Grobbulus. Our main tank is excellent, btw. So I don't think it's a tank issue.

Our group tends to run a little light on dps (4 of us account for nearly all the dps), so my dying has a huge impact on boss fights.

If this is too OT for this thread, please let me know and I'll delete it. You guys do awesome work.

Anobix · 12/31/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by epoh

Has anyone been able to track any triggers for threat bugs with MI? Three times last night in Naxx I would hit LB, scorch x2 then MI, and while I was still casting, or in the middle of my balls-out macro (IV, combustion, trinket), the MIs would die and I jumped to the top of the aggro table and was 1-shotted by the boss. This happened once during Maexxna, and twice during Grobbulus. Our main tank is excellent, btw. So I don't think it's a tank issue.

Our group tends to run a little light on dps (4 of us account for nearly all the dps), so my dying has a huge impact on boss fights.

If this is too OT for this thread, please let me know and I'll delete it. You guys do awesome work.

A couple of times I have noticed that my images (or another mage's images) have basically taunted off of the tank and pulled aggro themselves. I believe this may have something to do with Manly's signature (that each image is getting 133% of the person's threat).

Zephriel · 12/31/08, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Anobix

A couple of times I have noticed that my images (or another mage's images) have basically taunted off of the tank and pulled aggro themselves. I believe this may have something to do with Manly's signature (that each image is getting 133% of the person's threat).

Yes, it's exactly because of the 133% threat assignment to MI. Assuming you're at range (130% threat cap), your images will pull aggro if you activate MI while at >97.5% tank threat (130 / 1.33_).

Xinhuan · 12/31/08, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by epoh

Has anyone been able to track any triggers for threat bugs with MI? Three times last night in Naxx I would hit LB, scorch x2 then MI, and while I was still casting, or in the middle of my balls-out macro (IV, combustion, trinket), the MIs would die and I jumped to the top of the aggro table and was 1-shotted by the boss. This happened once during Maexxna, and twice during Grobbulus. Our main tank is excellent, btw. So I don't think it's a tank issue.

This isn't a bug. You really did pull aggro.

While MI is active, your threat is deducted by 410065408 Blizzard units of threat (or 4.1 million in Omen's threat scale). When MI wears off, your threat is added by 410065408.

What this means is, MI is a temporary threat reduction, and you can pull aggro when its effect ends just like a priest's Fade (which works exactly the same way, with the same amount of threat reduction). The issue in this thread is on modifying Omen so as to make it show your non-MIed threat during MI so that you do not accidentally pull aggro.

epoh · 12/31/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Xinhuan

This isn't a bug. You really did pull aggro.

While MI is active, your threat is deducted by 410065408 Blizzard units of threat (or 4.1 million in Omen's threat scale). When MI wears off, your threat is added by 410065408.

What this means is, MI is a temporary threat reduction, and you can pull aggro when its effect ends just like a priest's Fade (which works exactly the same way, with the same amount of threat reduction). The issue in this thread is on modifying Omen so as to make it show your non-MIed threat during MI so that you do not accidentally pull aggro.

While that could be the case, the 3rd time we did Grobbulus, I did the exact same sequence of casts, minus mirror image (LB, scorchx2, combustion, IV, trinket, FB, etc) and never came close to pulling aggro. There really wasn't time previously for me to have pulled aggro. I know full well I can easily pull aggro at the beginning if I get a string of crits, but otherwise threat shouldn't really be an issue. I am assuming I ran into the 133% bug previously mentioned. I was just wondering if anyone had figured out any triggers for it at all.

Xinhuan · 12/31/08, 5:19 PM

Well Grobbulus is a fight which involves quite a bit of tank movement in dragging the boss around the room, and as such, the tank's aggro suffers compared to most other fights.

Xinhuan · 12/31/08, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Zephriel

Yes, it's exactly because of the 133% threat assignment to MI. Assuming you're at range (130% threat cap), your images will pull aggro if you activate MI while at >97.5% tank threat (130 / 1.33_).

With regards to this, my own tests show that mirror images get 135% of your threat, not 133.333333%. That is, you should cast MI below 96.296%.

Xinhuan · 12/31/08, 8:34 PM

I did another test:

- Body pull a mob. Puts me at 0 threat.
- Cast MI. Puts me at -410065408 threat.
- While my images battle the mob, I cast Invisibility and exit combat.
- Cancel invisibility. The 3 images are still in combat.
- Body pull a 2nd mob. My threat with this new mob is -410065408.
- MI effect ends after 30 seconds. My threat with the 2nd mob returns to 0 (as expected).

Conclusion: Engaging a fresh mob in combat while MI is active starts you off at -410065408 threat rather than 0. If you did damage, the threat generated is accounted for correctly.

I was trying to see if I could somehow bug out the game and perform a 4.1 mil positive threat jump and possibly pull aggro off the MT in the process during a boss fight.

radikal · 01/01/09, 12:37 AM

This is tangential, but has any gotten much of an understanding for what determines the AI of the images themselves? It seems to be something like 2nd threat aside from your initial target, but this gets very messed up with vanish/feign/immunity effects. It also seems that frequently once your mirrors stop casting a target (to avoid breaking a lone sheep or something) they never are able to attack again.

Docjowles · 01/02/09, 4:39 AM

The two issues that interest me are:

1) Xin, do you intend to merge this fix into Omen, or will it always be an apocryphal change? If you don't choose to merge it, would you support making it possible for someone to make a small "plugin" that would apply the change?

2) Sometimes my mirror images attack something for no apparent reason (for example, adds on Gluth or the raptors in Drek'tharon). Is that completely random, or is there some pattern to when and whether the images attack some add I am not even targeting?

Enthorn · 01/02/09, 10:00 AM

Interestingly, Mirror Image works most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't work at all. Case in point, at the Runesmith Forge (Skeletal Runesmith area in Icecrown), I pulled a large number of mobs. Something unintended happened, and I had to use Mirror Image to get the mobs off me. Unfortunately, while maybe 15 of the mobs targetting me switched to my mirror images, one or two did not. Furthermore, a few mobs from behind me, who were previously not on my threat table, decided to attack me as well. At no point did my mirror images 'taunt' them.

This seems to contradict my other encounters with Mirror Image. Normally, every mob that I was engaged with switches to my new mirror images. And, every new mob that I engage is 'taunted' off me, regardless if the mirror image attacks it or not (that is, if I pull a mob while mirror images are active, they will attack my mirror images before attacking me).

This encounter was a seldom exception to that rule.

drowsy · 01/02/09, 11:18 AM

In that particular case of fresh facepulls with MI already up, I would wonder whether your images would be on the new mobs' threat tables at all. Even at -410065408 threat, a mob will still go for you if it isn't aware of anything else.

orionnt · 01/02/09, 11:37 AM

at what point does the threat return to you? For instance, when you spawn your Images, they live for 30 seconds and after 30 seconds they die and you get all 4 million threat back. What if the Images die Earlier, on for instance Sartharion, they usually die right away due to the AE damage going around, Do you still not get the threat back for 30 seconds, or do you get it back immediatley when they die? also, what happens when onle 1 of the 3 dies, do you just get back 1/3 of teh threat?

TitanHawk · 01/02/09, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by drowsy

In that particular case of fresh facepulls with MI already up, I would wonder whether your images would be on the new mobs' threat tables at all. Even at -410065408 threat, a mob will still go for you if it isn't aware of anything else.

I've seen this happen quite a bit and indeed this is what is happening (your mirror images are not on the mobs threat tables).

Xinhuan · 01/03/09, 3:31 AM

Originally Posted by Docjowles

The two issues that interest me are:

1) Xin, do you intend to merge this fix into Omen, or will it always be an apocryphal change? If you don't choose to merge it, would you support making it possible for someone to make a small "plugin" that would apply the change?

2) Sometimes my mirror images attack something for no apparent reason (for example, adds on Gluth or the raptors in Drek'tharon). Is that completely random, or is there some pattern to when and whether the images attack some add I am not even targeting?

1) Yes. In fact, you can grab the v3.0.5-2-gf88be07 alpha here with the following 2 changes:

Add 410065408 threat to all players with negative threat for display purposes. English translation: You can now see the "un-Faded/un-MIed threat" of players under the effects of Fade and Mirror Image.
Add Fade/MI Color to the options. This color is used on players under the effects of MI/Fade.

The Fade/MI Color is gray by default. I am currently waiting for 2 days or so to see if there are side-effects from testers as well as for localization updates from translators before releasing a v3.0.6.

2) From all the times I've used MI, it seems random what the images will do. This includes me using them on Faerlina, Maexxna, Gluth, Noth and some others.

In that particular case of fresh facepulls with MI already up, I would wonder whether your images would be on the new mobs' threat tables at all. Even at -410065408 threat, a mob will still go for you if it isn't aware of anything else.

This is correct. On a fresh pull while under the effects of MI, you are the only person on the mob's threat list, so it will attack you (at -4.1 mil threat) and not your images (none of which are on the threat list).

Contrary to "popular belief", Mirror Images do not do any taunting at all. You simply get -4.1 mil threat and so mobs stop attacking you in favour of your images. They do however inherit 135% of your threat (all 3 of them), which means they will also pull aggro if you were above 98% of your tank's threat (98% * 135% > 130% for pulling aggro).

at what point does the threat return to you? For instance, when you spawn your Images, they live for 30 seconds and after 30 seconds they die and you get all 4 million threat back. What if the Images die Earlier, on for instance Sartharion, they usually die right away due to the AE damage going around, Do you still not get the threat back for 30 seconds, or do you get it back immediatley when they die? also, what happens when onle 1 of the 3 dies, do you just get back 1/3 of teh threat?

The threat returns to you after 30 seconds, and you get back all 4 million at that time of expiry. The 3 images are irrelevant. If you read your combat log, you will actually see something like this:

[15:25:50] 15:25:49> [Your] [Mirror Image] (SpellID:55342) applied [You].
[15:25:50] 15:25:49> [Your] [Mirror Image] (SpellID:58833) summoned [Mirror Image].
[15:25:50] 15:25:49> [Your] [Mirror Image] (SpellID:58831) summoned [Mirror Image].
[15:25:50] 15:25:49> [Your] [Mirror Image] (SpellID:58834) summoned [Mirror Image].
[15:25:50] 15:25:49> [You] cast [Mirror Image] (SpellID:55342).
[15:26:19] 15:26:18> [Your] [Mirror Image] (SpellID:55342) faded [You].
[15:26:19] 15:26:19> [Mirror Image] died.
[15:26:19] 15:26:19> [Mirror Image] died.
[15:26:19] 15:26:19> [Mirror Image] died.

The summoning and deaths of your images are irrelevant here, what's important is that a hidden buff (Mirror Image - Spell - World of Warcraft (see link for the Buff under the spell description)) is applied to you for 30 seconds.

Maje · 01/03/09, 8:51 AM

The link mentioned above is Omen Threat Meter - World of Warcraft - WowAce.com

Also updated the first post.

Althea · 01/08/09, 9:17 AM

My bad, i missed a part of the above post

Sojik · 01/08/09, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by Althea

I was dealing with Sapphirion with my guild 2 days ago, and while using mirror image i noticed a thing and i am wondering if someonelse is having the same thing happened

I casted MI and i disappeared from Omen, then my images got killed by Sapphirion nova, but my threat was not given back until the 30 seconds was passed

I then tried it vs kel'thuzad, activating the images on a void zone, and the same thing appened

It seem that MI gives some kind of hidden buff or something but i had not much time to test it, i am doing some experiments tonight

Someone have experienced the same thing or i had something buggy?

Why did you post in a thread you didn't even bother to read? Seriously, two posts up this is explained.

Kludge · 01/08/09, 3:23 PM

On a Heroic Kel'thuzad kill we had last night I was hit with a frostbolt for ~28k while Mirror Image was active.

Normally the frostbolt is ~8k damage, but with mirror Image up it feels like it places a 4x damage on me. This is the second time it has happened to me on Kel'thuzad. Has anyone else noticed anything like this before or is it just me?

I casted Mirror image at 05:28'15

05:28'25.000 Kludge is afflicted by Frostbolt.
05:28'25.016 Kel’Thuzad Frostbolt hits Kludge for 28242 Frost. (3047 Resisted)
05:28'25.360 Kludge died.
05:28'26.516 Mirror Image #2 died.
05:28'26.516 Mirror Image #3 died.

Full log is here: Wow Web Stats

Docjowles · 01/08/09, 3:31 PM

The way I understand it, Kel'thuzad has two frostbolts. One hits the tank for roughly 25k damage and is the one you want to interrupt. He also has a second one he just randomly shoots out at the raid that hits for far less:

Frostbolt - Spell - World of Warcraft
Frostbolt - Spell - World of Warcraft

It's difficult to tell from the log, but it looks like perhaps mirror image wore off, you had pulled aggro (or the tank was dead or something) and he splatted you with the top-aggro frostbolt.

Villeraz · 01/08/09, 3:36 PM

On heroic, his single-target Frostbolt hits his primary aggro target for 30k, his multi-target Frostbolt hits everyone for 8k, and his Frost Blast hits a random target (and nearby friends) for 104% of the targets maximum health.

You pulled aggro, or the tank died, or the tank didn't pick up KT after a mind control (aggro wipe), etc, and were hit by his primary-aggro-target nuke.

EDIT: Upon browsing your log, there was a mind control shortly before you were gibbed (I see your raid members damaging each other with various abilities). Kel'Thuzad resets his entire threat table when he mind controls, and you out-TPSed your tank right at that moment, and his first frostbolt target was you.