Enthorn

Please use this thread to discuss sets, items, setups in Rawr, and other related things.

Sancus has written up a lot of great information on Fire (20.51.0) and Arcane (57.3.11) sets. You can find that information here, as well as Frostfire (0.53.18) information here.

Noshei has also posted two sets for everything except 25 man Heroic loots, that means it does include 10 man tribute gear for Fire (19/52/0) and for Arcane (57/3/11).

 

Toshimo

I'd assume this is a typographical error.

 

Unleash

4pc in both gear sets?

I've got tons of gear setups in rawr atm, ill post some differences and ideas when i get a bit more time

 

Ataxus

How reliable is rawr's optimizer? I've seen non-reproducible results from it in the past. Have you hand-checked this set as well and compared it to other possibilities, such as:

Breaking 4 pc or not/which offpiece(s) are optimal
Gown of the Spell-Weaver and possible benefits of excess hit/gear juggling
Leash of Heedless Magic vs Cincture of Polarity
Unsullied Cuffs vs Bindings of the Expansive Mind

 

Enthorn

I included Icy Veins in the list because it's a cooldown, just as Combustion is. Rawr currently does not model Mirror Image, so I didn't include that. And generally people use Mirror Image at different times, not necessarily stacking with anything.

Yes Ataxus, I have looked at each one of the scenarios you listed. Optimizer is great for setting things up, but it can overlook things, and does.

The first thing I do before running optimizer is to set my gems. I use the Mass Gem Replacement for this. The Gemming paterns would look like this:

#1 [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Veiled Monarch Topaz], [Glowing Twilight Opal], [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]
#2 [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Reckless Monarch Topaz], [Glowing Twilight Opal], [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]
#3 [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Veiled Monarch Topaz], [Glowing Twilight Opal], [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]
#4 [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]

You can also add in [Runed Dragon's Eye] if you want. Next run Optimizer. I leave Override Regem/Reenchant unchecked, because the wording is incredibly confusing and I have no idea what those two options are actually saying. I also haven't noticed any difference between leaving them checked or unchecked. After that's done, make sure all of your enchants are properly set. That means no Mighty Spellpower on your offhand, and no scopes on your wands. Make sure it didn't load two Illustration of the Dragon Soul (and make sure it's at 200SP) for trinkets, or two Signet of Manifested Pain for rings.

Make sure your waist items don't have "extra" gems on them. For instance, if you added a gem slot to a waist item to account for Eternal Belt Buckle, and put a gem into it, then updated the item from Wowhead/Armory after Extra Socket feature was added, the gem slot will be removed, but the gem will not be removed. This 'phantom' gem will affect your DPS.

The next thing I do is look at the Direct Upgrades list. If you have Runed Dragon's Eye in multiple items, it will list these as upgrades, but because you can only have 3 of these gems, they obviously aren't upgrades, so ignore them.

And yes Unleash, I do not believe there is any possible combination of equipment that nullifies that 4-piece T7 bonus.

 

Kelfar

He was referring to the fact you listed Icy Veins under the cooldown section of the FB spec, even though FB spec does not contain Icy Veins.

 

Enthorn

Good point... I wonder why I did that as well. Alright, I'll fix that.

As far as Non-JC, there is no difference in gear. You just swap out [Runed Dragon's Eye] for [Glowing Twilight Opal] in the necklace and cloak, and for the third one, substitute it for whichever gem it says to.

For 18.53, it's a 98.71 DPS loss to drop JC. For 53.18, it's a 92.08 DPS loss.

 

Ataxus

Also, a little off topic, but are you supposed to Potion of Speed instead of Potion of Wild Magic? I thought Wild Magic ended up being better because of our 2 gcd spells, but then again ignoring them with speed pot might outweigh it

Edit: On the same note, shouldn't the haste soft cap be considered in gear selection? (<1 sec gcd affecting scorch, LB, and pyro, w/ or w/o lust)

 

Maje

Another thing to keep in mind is that theoretically using one [Rigid Autumn's Glow] and [Runed Scarlet Ruby] is better then 2 [Veiled Monarch Topaz] that is of course without any socket bonuses as the difference is 1spp.

 

Decree

Did you consider Rune of Razorice? Its pretty common in raids with how DW Deathknight builds are top dps, though i'm not sure if that will continue to be true in 3.0.8.

 

Maje

Latest dev. build of Rawr already has Rune of Razorice modeled, it's roughly 5% increase in FFB dps spec. FFB + razorice is above Fireball build not including Focus Magic of another mage, if you model for 2 Fireball mages then they are around 2% above FFB.

 

Saphya

Razorice is 5% Frostdamage only. This increases DPS of the FFB-Build by ~3,25% (5% of 65% of your damage), pushing FFB from 5671 DPS to 5855 DPS.

And if I turn off Focus Magic for Fireball I get nearly identical DPS for FFB and FB, just as Manly said somewhere. I'm not sure if I really want to trade 3% Crit against the superior DPM and AoE-DPS of FFB.

 

Chira

When comparing specs, you should almost always check off Focus Magic for fire whether or not there will be a second mage. The fact is that your own 3% buff is going somewhere in the raid, so you can't ignore that. The only things that I see that FFB has going for it is the burst control with IV or possibly the DPM in fights where evocation is difficult to pull off effectively.

 

• Praanz

Enthorn: Even though I've gone through your list I can't get the exact same result as you, it differs on a few DPS. Could you please have your Rawr XML added to your post?

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire.

You have not to move out of the fire, it will be nerfed soon.

 

Nildrohain

After some troubleshooting, I was able to mirror your results with a difference of ~2 dps (5669.38). I found out that using the optimizer with low thoroughness gave strange varying results; obviously because it only considers direct upgrades and not the possible EP values of all gear sets.

It seems that Alliance mages with Heroic Presence just switch out [Bindings of the Expansive Mind] for [Unsullied Cuffs] with an increase in dps from 5669.38 to 5685.06 according to my results.

 

Ataxus

Rawr seems to neglect soft haste cap though. I'm kind of confused as to the appropriate way to go around this.

 

Kavan

What exactly do you mean by soft cap? It does cap cast time at 1 second if that is what you mean.

 

Unclefu

Rawr & Haste Cap w.r.t. GCD

Rawr does appear to account for the haste cap with respect to GCD for FFB spell cycles, but not for FB.

For FFB spec, increasing amounts of haste result in more fight segments in which Rawr chooses a FFBScPyro spell cycle over FFBScLBPyro. In optimal gear, adding 100 haste rating drops LB during MF+Lust+IV+Potion of Speed. Adding 1000 haste drops LB during MF+Lust+IV.

Yet strangely, taking the same approach with a FB setup fails to yield such results - even adding 5000 haste rating does not result in LB being dropped from the spell cycle for any segment within the fight.


FB Optimal Gearset

This may be overly tangential assuming an exclusively ordinal focus on optimal gearsets, but I feel it's worth noting that FB spec can take the ideal FFB gearset, replace [Sundial of the Exiled] with [Dying Curse], replace the 3 [Potent Monarch Topaz] with 2 [Reckless Monarch Topaz] and 1 [Veiled Monarch Topaz], and end up only 6 DPS behind the optimal FB gearset, which differs by 3 pieces - Heigan chest, Malygos belt, and T7.5 head - none of which an optimally geared FFB mage is likely to have picked up.

This point may be of interest to those who have already obtained the ideal FFB gearset and intend to switch to FB spec come 3.0.8, or to a more general audience given the nature of loot tables and RNG.

 

Kavan

I found what the problem was. The solver basically wasn't taking FBScPyro into account. If you enable global optimizations I believe that should fix the problem until the fix goes live.

 

soyfrog

I have been unable to use rawr due to various reasons so far but im curious is there anything in rawr that gives values for each point of a stat for each spec, Im guessing is has these values since you are able to compute this gear optimisation, you should consider adding those values in the first post for each spec for people who have most of the best gear but are unable to get every piece of the optimal sets yet so they can work out themselves what is the best that they have available.

Also im not sure if its possible on rawr yet with the new arcane blast glyph and other things such as new talents since i am yet to see one but it would be interesting to see an optimal set for the http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...h=000000000000 57/3/11 arcane spec that is going to be decent next patch. I will keep checking back here in case someone does one.

 

Plankel

I just turned this around and ran the optimal fire set through rawr for a ffb spec with crit gems and sundial and you lose an amazing 4 dps compared to the optimal ffb set (although my dps value is 50 dps lower then enthorns for some reason). The difference is so small I can't imagine anybody actually switching those 3 items.


To the poster above me, Rawr can show you how much extra hit/crit/haste/spellpower/int and stuff increases your dps yes. I suppose those values could be included in the OP, but the entire purpose of Rawr is so you can work out what the best gear setup is you have available. So instead of calculating that with those general ratings they should just load up rawr and find the answer that way.

 

Enthorn

Alright, I mirrored this finally. It took a while, and I ended up at varying DPS results along the way (5867, 5890) before arriving at 6061.84. Nice way to look at it for transitioning to 18.53. Very informative. Thanks.

 

Malfeas

Running with settings identical to your own, I am getting different results for 53.18.

[Valorous Frostfire Circlet] instead of Gothik's Cowl.

[Leash of Heedless Magic] instead of the Cincture of Polarity.

[Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] instead of the Frostfire Legs.

DPS is 5748.41
Hit Rate is 13.99%

However, every time I run the optimizer, it seems to randomly pick between [Heigan's Putrid Vestments] and [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] as the off-set piece. The hit rate on the [Heigan's Putrid Vestments] set is 14.06%. When the optimizer picks the Heigan Robe set, dps is about 8 lower.

When I run with the Draenei aura, it takes [Unsullied Cuffs] instead of the Razuv bracers.

In any case, the choice in belt and the choice in helm are always different than what your set shows. Not sure why this is.

Edit: About one in ten times running the optimizer, I get [Gown of the Spell-Weaver] instead of the Heigan Robe set. When this happens, the Nerubian wand gets replaced with the [Plague Igniter]. DPS is again slightly lower than the "Wanton Spellcaster set".

 

Enthorn

I switched Gothik's Cowl for Valorous Circlet, Valorous Leggings for Wanton Leggings, Cincture for Leesh, and changed the potent gem in the shoulders to a runed dragon's eye (the one that was in gothik's cowl). I end up with 5668.94 DPS.

Crit rate: 582, Hit rate: 286, Haste: 505, Spell: 2720

This is 2.46 DPS less than where I started, so there must be something enabled on your end that is changing things. When I turn on Focus Magic (which shouldn't be on), DPS goes to 5858.87.

When I edit Illustration of the Dragon Soul to 260 spell power (and Focus Magic off), it puts me at 5757.66 DPS, which is still less than where you are. Do you have "Mighty Spellpower" on your offhand, or any extra "hidden" gems in your waist item? More than one Runed Dragon's Eye?

 

Hibbo

First thank you very much for this great Work Enthorn!!
I tried to add my Arcane Spec, Equip and Buffs in the way you have listed your's.
Maybe someone has some hints to tune this Combination.


Rawr version: 2.1.6
Race: Undead (No Heroic Presence, Berserking, or Expansive Mind)
Latency: 0.1
Enabled: Heroism/Bloodlust, Potion of Wild Magic, Potion of Speed
Heroism Control: Optimal
Innervate and Mana Tide Totem are set to 0. They are irrelevent unless you increase the duration of the fight.
Enabled: Evocation, Mana Potion, Mana Gem
Snared Time: 1
Focus Magic Rate: 0.200
Duration: 300
Enabled: Incremental Optimizations, Reconstruct Sequence, 3.0.8 Mode
Glyphs: Glyph of Arcane Blast, Glyph of Mage Armor, Glyph of Arcane Power

Buffs:
Improved Moonkin Form
Arcane Intellect
Vampiric Touch
Mana Spring Totem (Restorative Totems)
Blessing of Wisdom (Improved Blessing of Wisdom)
Elemental Oath
Focus Magic
Wrath of Air Totem
Totem of Wrath
Divine Spirit
Mark of the Wild (Improved Mark of the Wild)
Blessing of Kings (Improved Blessing of Kings)
Mage Armor
Judgement of Wisdom
Improved Scorch
Earth and Moon
Misery
Flask of the Frost Wyrm (+37 Spell Power, Alchemy Profession)
Spell Power Food (Firecracker Salmon, Tender Shoveltusk Steak)

Professions: Alchemy, Jewelcrafting

Spec: 57.3.11 Arcane
Crit Rate: 402 - 47.66%
Hit Rate: 219 - 11.35%
Haste: 669 (/32.789 = 20.40%)
Casting Speed: 1.381458
Spell Power: 3055
DPS: 6202,04
Damage breakdown:
Arcane Blast: 51,46%
Arcane Missiles 28,99%
Arcane Barrage 19,55%
Mana Regen:
MP5: 196
Mana Regen in 5SR: 1066
Set Bonus DPS:
2-piece: 112.89
4-piece: 59.99
Consumables/Cooldowns:
Mana Gem, Icy Veins, Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, Combustion, Mirror Image (Not modeled in Rawr)

[Hood of Rationality]: [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond], [Runed Dragon's Eye], [Arcanum of Burning Mysteries]
[Wyrmrest Necklace of Power]: [Runed Dragon's Eye]
[Valorous Frostfire Shoulderpads]: [Reckless Monarch Topaz], [Greater Inscription of the Storm ]
[Pennant Cloak]: [Runed Dragon's Eye], Greater Speed
[Valorous Frostfire Robe]: [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Reckless Monarch Topaz], Powerful Stats
[Unsullied Cuffs]: [Runed Scarlet Ruby], Superior Spellpower
[Valorous Frostfire Gloves]: [Runed Scarlet Ruby], Exceptional Spellpower
[Leash of Heedless Magic]: [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Eternal Belt Buckle]
[Valorous Frostfire Leggings]: [Runed Scarlet Ruby], [Reckless Monarch Topaz], [Sapphire Spellthread]
[Boots of Impetuous Ideals]: Icewalker
[Signet of Manifested Pain]: [Band of Channeled Magic]
[Embrace of the Spider], [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] (200 SP)
[The Turning Tide]: Mighty Spellpower
[Surplus Limb], [Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians]