Wenchery, I edited my post with a list of the sources of Spirit. I'll try to do this for Crit as well, as their are a lot of sources for that (gear, buffs, intellect, spirit).

Just wondering if this is a mistake in your updated front page post.
The hood requires a red gem for the socket bonus and you've stated a [Potent Monarch Topaz] as the most DPS to fill the red slot when I would've thought a Runed Scarlet would give more.

Again, i'm not saying your incorrect as I havn't done the analysis myself, just wondering if you made a typo or not.

Tempest1, I edited the helm with the correct gem, which was set in Rawr like that, but, when you add Conqueror's Kirin'dor Hood and Valarous Kirin'dor Hood to the item cache, they will not come with a Socket Bonus, and as everything is still on wowhead's PTR, they will not update properly. Actually, now that I look at it, this is true Cowl of Icy Breaths and probably a few other items too.

It will be easier once Wowhead moves everything from their PTR site to their live site, which could end up with many dead links until I change them. Let me know if anything else seems off.

Hey,

I am a bit confused on the way you put your trinket choices currently.

Does this mean the Flare will have one trinket spot no matter what, and the other two trinkets are both ideal for the second spot?

I'm trying to determine how much longer IoDS will be ideal compared to them...

Taking a look at the trinkets:

IoDS: 200 * 1.71 = 342
Eye of the Broodmother: 125 * 1.71 + 87 * 1.5 = 213.75 + 130.5 = 344.25
Flare: 120 * 1.5 + 850 * (10/45) * 1.71 = 180 + 323 = 503 (Assumed 45s CD)
Scale of Fates: 125 * 1.75 + 432 * (20/120) * 1.62 = 218.75 + 116.64 = 335.39

Doesn't that make Scale of the Fates slightly worse than IoDS, or does Rawr take into consideration that I can stack my CDs properly with the haste use? Not using it every CD, would mean "overall" haste would be lower, but stacking with CDs I suppose would outweigh that?

Has anyone had the chance to plug in the new gear for an Alliance Arcane mage? I'm looking through it now for an optimal set, but it'd be nice to be able to compare my work.

Gravenimage, I have zero experience playing an Arcane mage, so I haven't attempted to put together any sort of set for it. I know rotations and relative stat values, but that's about it. As such, the Arcane thread seems better suited for it. I may rename this thread to alleviate any confusion.

Averiel, Flare of the Heavens is well ahead of all other trinkets, in the same vein that [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] is ahead of every ilevel 200-213 trinket ([Embrace of the Spider], [Sundial of the Exiled], [Dying Curse]). Here's the DPS for all the trinkets listed by slot.

Comparisons - Slot: Gear > Trinket 1
Flare of the Heavens: 399.92
Scale of Fates: 344.35
Eye of the Broodmother: 337.83
Illustration of the Dragon Soul: 333.06

Comparisons - Slot: Gear > Trinket 2
Flare of the Heavens: 398.63
Scale of Fates: 350.49
Eye of the Broodmother: 337.72
Illustration of the Dragon Soul: 334.47

The bolded part is the actual DPS contribution of the item. The others are the relative value comparitively. That is, if we were to sub out Trinket 2 with Trinket 1, it would be worth that much DPS. Because we know that Flare of the Heavens is far ahead of anything else, we only really need to look at the DPS in Trinket 2's slot. You can increase/decrease the fight duration in increments of 5-10 and vary the results; in some cases, Eye of the Broodmother will show to be ahead of Scale of Fates. In other cases, Illustration and Broodmother will both be ahead of Scale of Fates. This is due to the proc and how Rawr calculates it. For on proc effects, I believe Kavan said that Rawr averages out the benefit (such as for Sundial or Flare of the Heavens). For "On Use" effects, it's modeled in when it's used, which is why it shows use in Sequence Reconstruction. He posted about this in the Rawr thread.

For what it's worth, Eye of the Broodmother only requires 5 stacks (stacking 25 spell power per stack), coupled with its passive 87 crit. I haven't seen a fight duration yet where Illustration is better than it. And depending on the fight duration, Scale of Fates can be a few DPS behind Broodmother (225 sec - 342.20 vs 338.93) or substantially ahead (180 sec - 371.19 vs 346.56).

It's really all about the duration. Set it to 360 seconds and Broodmother is ahead of Scale by 10 DPS. Set it to 370, Fates is ahead by 5 DPS. Set it to 380, Fates is ahead by 20 DPS. It's entirely unrealistic to be able to predict that kind of variance in reality. In such situations, I usually go with the cooler sounding item. Eye of the Broodmother is dark and ominous, foreboding. Scale of Fates is epic and timeless. I suppose you could also go by whichever icon looks the best too. These are important factors. DPS isn't everything you know...

I couldn't seem to find anything about it going through the past few posts, but with the 19/52 FB build w/o Scorch glyph, does Imp Scorch become a filler talent, dropping it out of the rotation (assuming SB Lock is present in raids), or will it now be LB -> Scorch x5 -> FB (PB on HS procs)?

If there is a warlock in the raid to provide the debuff, then yes you drop scorch out of your rotation. If there is no warlock present then it may be better to Scorch x5 first, since our LB DoTs can crit.

Imp Scorch talent is not a filler though, the selfish portion of the talent is worth the points.

Frostfire was a step ahead of Fireball in regards to mana management. Not only does Frostfire Bolt itself cost substantially less mana than Fireball, but every other spell costs 13% less due to Frost Channeling and Precisions. This has huge implications on Pyroblast, when you're saving ~70 mana per Hot Streak proc.

It was also somewhat easier to gear, early on, for Frostfire due to the 3% hit from Precisions. AoE was often easier too with Blizzard spam. While there isn't anything terribly bad with alternating Flamestrike rank 8 and 9, trash just didn't live long enough to take the full damage of the DoTs and it was often easier to just open with Blizzard.

All of these things kept in mind, there are alluring points to staying Frostfire. But, as far as single target DPS goes, without a doubt, Fireball is ahead. I've seen it repeatedly in Rawr and I've seen it repeatedly in my own experience. I was Frostfire specced for weeks until I could make up for the 3% hit. I even had guild members asking me what I was doing different, since I was much further ahead on damage/DPS charts with Fireball.

When you have anecdotal experience and simulation evidence to mirror and explain those results, it's hard to return to something that isn't as good. The short answer is that, for single target DPS, Frostfire is around 325-375 less DPS than Fireball.

Terrrrrible, Glyph of Scorch is a personal preference. If you're going to replace a glyph for it, it should be Glyph of Fireball. Even though 5% crit for one spell sounds like a lot, it's not as big of a loss as Glyph of Molten Armor would be. That entirely depends on your gear, naturally, as if you have no spirit (which is impossible, but nonetheless), Molten Armor drops in value. I suppose if you're without Divine Spirit, Mark of the Wild, Kings, and Student of the Mind, and sporting all crit/haste gear, then sure, Glyph of Molten Armor is probably pretty bad.

To be honest, Glyph of Scorch seems like a convenience/PvP glyph now. No one really had trouble keeping Scorch up on targets pre-wrath.

Enthorn,

Why is flamethrowing so important?

Isn't it better to get 3/3 SotM and 1/1 Combustion?

Wouldn't using these robes...

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...t_9722_227.jpg

...Be better than using all 5p of t8 as you've listed.

The first page has 4pcT8 + Handwraps of the Vigilant though. Taking this robe would break the set bonus.

My question is:

3/3 SoM & 1/2 FT vs. 2/3 SoM & 2/2 FT

Right now I am 3/3 SoM. Is there numbers that can show the dps difference if there is one? Or is it mostly based on the "feel" of boss fights in Ulduar?

When I enter my current gear and all the raidbuffs available, a 19/52 spec ranks highest.
That's with 2/3 SotM, 1/2 FT and including Combustion.

There is a link on the first post to another post of mine showing the full breakdown for Student of the Mind vs Combustion. I've already looked at all the possible combinations. So, yes, there are numbers showing the difference. The table shows a full breakdown of the contribution of Student of the Mind (by each point) and Combustion, and the difference between specs with one or the other.

Ok, since ditching the Scorch glyph looks like the way to go, is it still important to get it up to 5 on a raid boss and maintain it?

I'm asking because, in our guild raids, I'm usually the ONLY mage (sometimes there is 1 other, rare though, and 2 others would be a sign of the apocolypse), so it'll be up to me to get 5 scorches on the boss now, meaning 3 extra casts without the Scorch glyph. Or should I just plunk down 1 or 2 when I'm waiting for another cooldown, and don't worry about getting to and maintaining all 5 debuffs?

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong thread, seems relevant here, though.

What would be your reasoning for delaying casting it? Raiding without Glyph of Scorch is no different than applying Scorch pre-wrath. The only difference is that it's 5% less crit, and 1% less crit per application. There's no reason not to apply the full debuff immediately and then resume rotations. I should note that the first spell I cast is Living Bomb (it generates zero threat till the first tick, it has a much further range than Scorch, and it's instant). Following that though, I don't see what other cooldowns you would be waiting for to delay a full five applications. Perhaps you can elaborate though.

I think the intent of the question was should you only cast 2 scorches up front then let the debuff continue to stack as you refresh, thus not getting to the full 5 stack until about a minute and a half into the fight. I know that's something I've thought of before, or possibly casting only 4 scorches initially then letting the 5th debuff stack when I refresh. I haven't worked out the math on it, but my gut tells me the first situation is a bad idea and any personal DPS gained by the second is probably less than the DPS the raid loses as a whole.

Right. The rephrasing of the question in that manner definitely makes things more clear. It also is apparant that, if that was the question, it's an absolutely terrible idea, for all the reasons you listed. Raid DPS would be astronomically less.

This is one of those situations where math isn't even needed. It's like driving a car and wanting to pass the person in front of you. You know how fast you're going. You have a general idea of how fast the person in front of you is going. You're estimating how far away the first oncoming car is, and how far away they are. Then you make a decision in that split second whether you will be able to overtake the car in front of you to pass them. Nobody writes the math out for that, but you still know whether you can or cannot do it.

Consider under those ideas: if you're only going to cast scorch on refreshes, why cast 2 scorches in the first place and not just one? And if you're going to cast 4 scorches, why not just cast 5? I mean, the reasoning for the idea is simple: if you need to cast 5 scorches to apply the debuff, and you need to refresh it five more times, then you've cast scorch 10 times. If you only do 1 scorch and you refresh it the same 5 times, you've only cast it six times. So that's essentially 2 more Fireballs. The possible DPS added from 2 Fireballs, even if they crit (but not including Hot Streak, since Scorch could proc this just as well) isn't anywhere remotely close to the DPS loss on every one of your previous spells up to the point of achieving 5 stacks. The raid DPS lost would be ever so much more.

Gotcha. I just hadn't seen any thoughts about "to scorch or not to scorch", so I thought I'd ask. I don't agree it's like driving a car, but whatever - thanks for the reply.

EDIT:

I guess my question wasn't phrased very well to begin with. Thinking about it more, the question was more like:

Should I spend time getting scorch up to 5 right off the bat during a boss fight (after LB of course), or am I losing DPS by not casting more fireballs before getting the debuff up to 5.

It sounds like the answer is "get the debuff up to 5, you nimrod, then go to your regular rotation".

Thanks again.

You should think about that for a second before asking.

If you are the only crit debuffer in the raid, one of your jobs will be to keep the debuff up. Your personal DPS comes second when you are assigned this role, because you are gimping the rest of the raid 5% crit. Afterall, you usually stack scorches on pull, where you don't want to NUKE the boss right off the bat due to positioning and aggro reasons, you have more than enough time to get 5 scorches during the position and initial aggro on most fights.

Do your job and scorch, or they will bring a warlock who can DPS and do the crit debuff!!!

EDIT: You also might want to think about the other raid dps in the group and how they apply their debuffs. Spriests often get their Shadow Weaving up, and wait a few seconds for raid debuffs (CoE, Scorch, etc) to be applied before putting their SWP up. If you didn't get the scorch up until later than that, they may not realize and be doing lower than optimal dps.

Yeah, I think the long and short of it is you might increase your personal DPS slightly by only using 3-4 scorches initially, but the opportunity cost of every caster in your raid not having that debuff fully stacked is going to be much greater than your small gain. IIRC, the difference when I stack/refresh scorch and when I don't is only on the order of 100-200 DPS and I feel like it would be about the same sort of difference in the situation you describe so it's not like you're sacrificing 10% of your DPS to stack it up.