While I was browsing armory today, I stumbled upon a dagger called Starshard Edge from Algalon by using the Find an Upgrade feature for my Turning Tide.
Vexdran: I haven't ran Rawr version 2.2.1 yet. I'm not sure that T8 4-piece bonus has been fully implemented regarding its 20% proc rate. I also like to keep things as consistent as possible when updating things, so changing a trinket's proc just because you're having difficulty importing it is something to avoid.
Abnell: No, I haven't looked at it. I've never heard of it, in fact, probably because Algalon has yet to be killed, hence no loot lists on mmo-champion. That's the only item listed under him on 10-man and 25-man on europeon armory, but I'll implement it sometime.
just a question, does fireball spec rely on crit more than haste?
unlike arcane
What ash2ash said, but note that the differences between haste and crit are pretty slight for both TTW and FFB, so don't fuss over those stats too much. Unlike Arcane.
Abnell: No, I haven't looked at it. I've never heard of it, in fact, probably because Algalon has yet to be killed, hence no loot lists on mmo-champion. That's the only item listed under him on 10-man and 25-man on europeon armory, but I'll implement it sometime.
I'm sure everyone has seen it by now, but just in case they haven't. The socket bonus missing is a known bug. Looks like this with Ironmender will be quite nice.
Starshard Edge is still not better than Staff of Endless Winter, and in fact, Furious Gladiator's Mageblade is a better weapon than Starshard Edge, due to the crit on it instead of hit. Why? Hit is so plentiful in other gear that you just don't need the miniscule amount of hit that Starshard Edge provides.
I'm sure someone will tell me otherwise, but from what I ran in 2.1.9 (no T8 bonuses), the fact that there isn't an offhand with an ilevel higher than 226 (to compensate for a mainhand), and due to Greater Spellpower's 18 more spellpower (over Mighty Spellpower), the Staff is just going to win every time.
Just a side note as well: the reason I haven't updated the main page is that, despite new items being found, it's exceedingly tedious to manually add items to Rawr (since they aren't on wowhead yet). Then once the new item does show up on wowhead, it's not so easy to just replace the item number. I have multiple character files and each one is keeping track of which items to show from the database, and then I end up with "Error retrieving item 99998" messages (I use 99990 through 99999 for new items, etc.). I can manually go through the XML files and remove all of these instances, but it doesn't make it any less inconvenient.
On top of that, I don't know the socket bonuses for the new items. I just guess. I'm also not too keen on posting any further results without T8 set bonuses taken into account. Also, my character in Rawr is now crashing Rawr, so... yeah. Anyway, the Crown of Luminescence looks to be pretty nice. For 4-piece set bonus purposes, I'd still probably say that the Enslaved leggings are going to be the off-set piece.
Grasps of Reason and Conductive Seal are easily top (and Conductive Seal finally makes Signet of Manifested Pain the second best ring instead of top).
I disagree.
Granted, Hit is plentiful BUT we need 13% or 14% if Horde.
The Staff has a Total ( With enchant) of
Spellpower...Hit......Crit.......Haste.....Int........Spi........Socket
668...............0......104...................128........84.......2
The Combo Starshard + Offhand+ Enchant
724..............39.........0.......36.........102........88.......1
Using the statvalues you state on the First Page, valueing hit the same als Crit (which is a bit low considering you have to gem for the hitcap and could put haste /spelldmg into the yellow sockets
The Staff scores 1522,42 and the Sword 1524,4
This is even biased toward the staff as i valued each socket with 19 spelldmg and assumed the staff still got 9 spelldmg socketbonus because of JC even thogh there are more than 3 Blue sockets on the best in slot items.
I assigned no Socketbonus to the Sword.
As it is now they are pretty close but I estimate the Sword wins by a small margin.
The main difference between you and Enthorn is the extent to which the hit cap is binding. Reason is, even if, as in your example, item with hit is marginally better than item without hit, you need to also check all your other options for hit/no hit items because hit over cap is wasted, and therefore changes your initial calculation. I expect you will find that in the slots where Enthorn has hit gear, the item with hit greatly outpoints available items without hit or else they are necessary to retain 4 or 2 pc.
Not sure if this is the right place for this but I was told rawr doesn't model trinkets correctly. Is this true? Its showing [Forge Ember] as being better than [Elemental Focus Stone] for me as a 57/3/11 arcane mage. This seem odd that a easily obtainable item would be so much better than one from Ulduar 10. The tool tip is also wrong on Elemental Focus Stone it actually procs haste for same amount.
Not sure if this is the right place for this but I was told rawr doesn't model trinkets correctly. Is this true? Its showing [Forge Ember] as being better than [Elemental Focus Stone] for me as a 57/3/11 arcane mage. This seem odd that a easily obtainable item would be so much better than one from Ulduar 10. The tool tip is also wrong on Elemental Focus Stone it actually procs haste for same amount.
That's probably because you're hit capped (or near enough). Therefore Rawr see's any additional hit rating as non-beneficial to your DPS.
Enthorn, what dps do you get going back to 18/53 and putting the point in combustion. I noticed on my current gear that I always got more DPS when doing 18/53 so I went ahead and put BIS pieces in (no hard modes) and compared again. Rawr is showing me about 20 more dps taking combustion instead of putting that point in student of the mind.
Just curious what you see, perhaps I am missing something down the line that makes this difference but a quick glance seemed ok.
I've never seen a DPS increase with Combustion. It certainly says it's a DPS increase in the Comparisons chart for Talent Points, but whenever I've actually put a point in Combustion and removed a point from Student of the Mind, DPS has gone down. Aside from that, outside of Rawr, it's very likely two of your Combustion charges will be eaten by Living Bomb's DoT, and then there is the entire issue with the first charge not really being a charge at all. Regardless, I hate Combustion. There's a link on the first page to this post where I wrote more things about Combustion and Student of the Mind.
Now that Rawr v2.2.2 is out, I'll probably run that sometime soon and update the main page finally. We'll see how close I actually got -- Vexdran's post up there seems fairly accurate to what I expect to see.
I ran 2.2.2 and it returned 7641 DPS using Starshard Edge and Crown of Luminescence. I then ran it again. It took approximately 1 1/2 hours. This time, it switched Crown of Lumiscence for [Handwraps of the Vigilant]. It also switched [Scepter of Lost Souls] for [Petrified Ivy Sprig]. A few notes: no build I've ever ran thus far has suggested using any wand other than [Scepter of Lost Souls].
I'm really not sure how much of a DPS increase Starshard Edge and [Ironmender] are over [Staff of Endless Winter], since switching in the staff means we're 39 hit under, and a straight switch is approximately 73 DPS difference. I suspect the line is actually very close. Naturally, I had to completely guess on the socket bonus being 9 spell power on the dagger, but I'm quite sure it's accurate (as well as the 5 spell power on Conductive Seal).
A few other random notes: the highest ilevel shoulders and waist are still ilevel 226. The second best ring is still ilevel 226. The highest offhand is ilevel 226, and the second best trinket is ilevel 226. Depending on what drops from Algalon in 10-man and 25-man, we could still see some switches. And I'll be running this later (it just takes a really long time, so I may have to just manually switch items around).
Edit: I've ran two tests now. One uses Starshard Edge and the other uses Staff of Endless Winter. The highest DPS I've been able to squeeze out of these two conditions has been 7649.89 and 7645.63, respectively. Thus, as it currently stands, Starshard Edge (if it has a 9 spell power socket bonus), is a 4.26 DPS upgrade over the staff. Naturally, this would increase if we see a better offhand from Algalon. If the socket bonus turns out to be 7 spell power (I doubt it), it's nearly break even.
Nonetheless, that's merely to put things in perspective. I mean, I'm all for the tried and true mainhand/offhand combination, but I don't want anyone thinking the staff is 'bad' or anything. I'll update the main page with all of this later on.
Last, the T8 set bonuses aren't in. The 4-piece set bonus will definitely increase the value of crit, probably over haste, even for Fireball builds, which in turn means spirit is more lucrative, which in turn decreases the difference in DPS of spirit/spell power gems vs prismatic gems (as far as blue sockets are concerned).
Now knowing the T8 set bonuses, I don't see how Crit>Haste in a FB/TTW build. Is there ever a point where Crit does overtake Haste in an FB build? Some sort of ratio between the 2? Ex. At 500 haste you want 30% crit, etc.
Now knowing the T8 set bonuses, I don't see how Crit>Haste in a FB/TTW build. Is there ever a point where Crit does overtake Haste in an FB build? Some sort of ratio between the 2? Ex. At 500 haste you want 30% crit, etc.
In a near best in slot set of Ulduar gear Rawr shows the following:
dps
dps with 4T8
10 Haste Rating
15.82
15.99
10 Crit Rating
14.87
15.70
So crit is certainly a lot closer in value to haste with 4T8 and could certainly be better depending on your exact gear. These values were generated by editing T8 in Rawr to remove the set name, so all stats were the same between them.
Originally Posted by Crowl
If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.
In a near best in slot set of Ulduar gear Rawr shows the following:
dps
dps with 4T8
10 Haste Rating
15.82
15.99
10 Crit Rating
14.87
15.70
So crit is certainly a lot closer in value to haste with 4T8 and could certainly be better depending on your exact gear. These values were generated by editing T8 in Rawr to remove the set name, so all stats were the same between them.
Great! Happen to know the cut off point where crit>haste? There has to be some sort of ratio between the 2 for FB/TTW. My goal is to eventually make the switch from FFB to FB if crit overtakes haste at a reasonable point. Or at least come damn near close.
Yes, I made a statement saying that T8 set bonuses may push crit value over haste. I was wrong, but I wasn't that far off actually. If you look at the values before T8 bonuses were put into Rawr, haste was being valued at about 1.63 in best in slot. Crit was down at 1.50. If you look at the values now, Haste has scaled up to 1.73-1.75, ~0.1 increase (depending on gear), and crit has increased to 1.64 (.14 increase). Spell Power has stayed the same.
I briefly went over why haste is better than crit for Fireball builds in some post, but it basically revolves around the base damage of Fireball and the critical hit multiplier, which is also why crit is better than haste for Frostfire. Don't forget, haste reduces global cooldown as well, so it's not entirely useless on instant casts (hot streak pyroblast and living bomb).
I recently switched from Frostfire to Fireball for Ulduar and find that if you focus on Haste/Spirit gear now it gives you a great ratio for crit to haste... anyone else done tests on this? Especially since a lot of us are going 2/3 student of the mind.
I'm 3/3 student with medium-high amounts of spirit (800++ spirit buffed, 2/3 on the pyro/LB crit one, might switch 1 point in from 2/2 imp. fire range, comments?) and I notice it's giving fb/ttw very reliable high DPS compared to before, probably due to the fact that you (1) crit more when fully buffed (2) don't need to evocate as much since your mana regen is bumped due to the high spirit. In fact I'm having trouble trying to hit below 40% mana in raid so evocate doesn't get any wasted ticks.
Since some of the items here (on the BiS lists) are extremely hard to obtain (hard mode loots), I'm gonna go for any spirit/haste gear I can get my hands on ATM.
I am FFB, with some very good gear, not BiS but close in most areas.
I like my dps in 10 ulduar and 25s. I am sitting at around 4k and 5k respectively..
Is the T8 set going to really be a great dps increase? If so should I keep my t7.5 4Pc set untill I have all 4 pieces of t8? Not breaking the set bonus untill I can replace it with t8?
Also, I have not seen a BiS item list for FFB yet. Pre- 3.1 there was a very nice set with plenty of info about it.. Is this a change due to everyone going Fireball?
Lastly when does SP not scale as well as crit and haste? I am currently at 2100 or so with flask and sp food. When i trinkets/ lightweave proc i am at over 3k. I have always been confused to when i should stop stacking sp and goto crit / haste or now spirit i guess.
First thing, download Rawr. That program will give you answers to many of the questions you have. There's an excellent forum thread specifically about Rawr.mage as well you should check out. The 2pc T8, as you will see when you play around with the program, is actually very good and worth dropping 4pc t7.5 to get. There's a lot of discussion about the 4pc t8 in various threads, use the search function.
Secondly, questions like these are probably better suited for the Simple Questions thread, or the FFB thread, for what its worth.
Last edited by Reignman : 05/06/09 at 10:07 AM.
Reason: grammar
04/30/09, 10:07 PM
