It doesn't seem to me that [Band of Channeled Magic] , [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] , and [Unsullied Cuffs] are best in slot for that build. Although perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on crit instead of haste.
It doesn't seem to me that [Band of Channeled Magic] , [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] , and [Unsullied Cuffs] are best in slot for that build. Although perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on crit instead of haste.
Rawr thinks (and I've seen no evidence to the contrary), that haste is much better for acrane specs than crit is. Remember that FFB has really high crit multiplier (>300%), and Arcane's is <200%. Also, you need less haste rating for 1% than crit rating for 1%.
You probably should use Undead, no Dreanei hit bonus for the optimal gear set to match up with the other two. Also Humans get extra spirit, which will affect item values slightly.
You probably should use Undead, no Dreanei hit bonus for the optimal gear set to match up with the other two. Also Humans get extra spirit, which will affect item values slightly.
My set can be used as horde and as alliance mage. My experiments indicate that you would only have to swap out the wand.
And the human racial accounts for around 3 dps and does not include item changes.
It doesn't seem to me that [Band of Channeled Magic] , [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] , and [Unsullied Cuffs] are best in slot for that build. Although perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on crit instead of haste.
Yes I'm feeling the same way. Luckily my guild is melee heavy, so it's not as bad for me wanting the priest gear. However, I still hesitate to need the gear with spirit/haste because if it turns out incorrect I would have taken upgrades from healers or offset healing pieces.
Last edited by freaknastee : 01/22/09 at 6:34 PM.
Reason: grammar
Yeah man, priest gear isnt too good for mages, some of it is okay because of the high spell power and crit but overall your best gear is going to have no spirit.
At least, thats what i know from my experiences.
The problem is you guys are looking at the gear choices from a FFB perspective where spirit has next to no use, and crit is more important than haste. For arcane haste and spirit are much more important stats.
The problem is you guys are looking at the gear choices from a FFB perspective where spirit has next to no use, and crit is more important than haste. For arcane haste and spirit are much more important stats.
Actually, based on experience and some comments here, it seems alot of people are doing ok even with hardly any spirit, with the proper replenishment and raidbuffs. I know I did ok in my Fire gear as arcane, instantly doing alot more dps while still managing ok on mana (mind you with 2 min evocation, more spirit might mean you'd be able to drop some evocationtime)
I also actually dropped the 3% hit from arcane focus, as I'm capped without it, and even without that 3% lower spellcost, I was ok in raids. I mostly used Molten armor, but sometimes I switched Mage armor. Had
So in other words, the perfect gear might not differ THAT much from Fire/arc and arcane. (Seeing as haste is already better for a fire/arc build than crit is)
Atm spirit seems a more "nice to have" stat for arcane, instead of allmost useless as the fire specs.
There's more competition for the hit items in my guild than the spirit ones; we run with 1 holy priest and about 7 other cloth casters (2-4 mages, 3 locks, sp in any given raid) - not to mention those evil shaman and boomkin that sometimes try to grab them. I've seen 0 Cincture's drop since I restarted playing ~6weeks or so, but the only Leash we had drop went to another mage after no one else wanted it (I wish I had taken it now). Dying Curse ... first 1 was this week, about 5 people wanted it (glad I'm arcane now and got my embrace). We haven't gotten any Unsullied Cuffs, but the only person I know of that wants them is our holy priest.
Originally Posted by Celanara
The problem is you guys are looking at the gear choices from a FFB perspective where spirit has next to no use, and crit is more important than haste. For arcane haste and spirit are much more important stats.
Spirit is hardly useful in arcane spec either. There are 2 major differences though. Haste is far more effective than crit and you don't need as much hit. If you were to ignore hit rating in Rawr, it would actually tell you a lot of the same pieces are best in slot for Ttw Fireball and FFB as they are arcane (ie Unsullied Cuffs, etc), but those fire builds need the extra hit. However, items that have large amounts of crit on them will drop off when you switch to arcane. The item I ran into was my engineering helm I was using as FFB until I could grab a Gothik's helm. According to Rawr, the engi helm was 3rd (I believe) in slot behind only Gothik's and 1 other. In Arcane, though, the helm is quite frankly terrible. I had previously been using Cowl of Sheet Lightning and when I made my engineering helm I DE'd it thinking I wouldn't need it any longer. However Rawr shows it as a significant upgrade to the engineering helm in arcane spec because it is itemized with haste as opposed to crit. In both cases, the spirit is highly irrelevant, but it is interesting to note that according to rawr intellect is worth more than crit rating in an arcane build.
Yup. In a FFB or Arc/Fire build, crit > haste...depending on gear levels crit can be approximately equal to spellpower where haste is always significantly below. (decent, but not great)
In a deep arcane build, crit just doesn't do that much..your multiplier isn't that high and some of your talents softcap crit. I've not done the math but I'd figure at best crit on arcane is at best about as good as haste on arc/fire and probably worse (since haste would presumably make it easier to keep the AB debuff up). It might even be more like haste on a fire build in BC, where it is haste, not crit, that is near spellpower in dps improvement. That assumes enough mana, of course. There is always a bit of tension between haste and mana...crit improves dpm and dps, haste only increases dps.
This is going to significantly shift which items are best in class. Luckily there is a lot of haste and crit out there, meaning the first suit you put together is likely to have a fair amount of both, and there are options to finetune one way or the other depending on spec when you start having redundant pieces.
Yup. In a FFB or Arc/Fire build, crit > haste...depending on gear levels crit can be approximately equal to spellpower where haste is always significantly below. (decent, but not great)
In a deep arcane build, crit just doesn't do that much..your multiplier isn't that high and some of your talents softcap crit. I've not done the math but I'd figure at best crit on arcane is at best about as good as haste on arc/fire and probably worse (since haste would presumably make it easier to keep the AB debuff up). It might even be more like haste on a fire build in BC, where it is haste, not crit, that is near spellpower in dps improvement. That assumes enough mana, of course. There is always a bit of tension between haste and mana...crit improves dpm and dps, haste only increases dps.
This is going to significantly shift which items are best in class. Luckily there is a lot of haste and crit out there, meaning the first suit you put together is likely to have a fair amount of both, and there are options to finetune one way or the other depending on spec when you start having redundant pieces.
Considering the large stat weight that crit takes point for point and assuming that spirit is a waste of stat points, here is a decent filter to begin searching for gear..
Yup. In a FFB or Arc/Fire build, crit > haste...depending on gear levels crit can be approximately equal to spellpower where haste is always significantly below. (decent, but not great)
Actually I only partly agree. In rawr I see, quite consistently, haste as superior to
crit for 18/53/0. For 0/53/18 you're of course correct.
Actually I only partly agree. In rawr I see, quite consistently, haste as superior to
crit for 18/53/0. For 0/53/18 you're of course correct.
Hm. That's not what my spreadsheets show, although they don't take raid buffs into account, and raid buffs add a crapload of crit but aside from Heroism, not much haste and that will change things some.
18/53/0 should weigh haste higher and crit lower than 0/53/18 because ice shards and icy veins do not enter into the equation and torment+fireball glyph add a bit more to overall average damage/shot, but aside from that it should have all the other dynamics that make crit so good for frostfire (hot streak, burnout, ignite) and in addition has more mana issues which should favor crit over haste to some extent.
Using the same rotation, swapping fireball for frostfirebolt, I'm getting with my gear (including average uptime for things like Dying Curse/Sundial/Hyperspeed Accellerators/2T7 bonus) the following ratios to spellpower
Now the absolute values may be debatable, particularly with raid buffs, but the relative values are unlikly to be that different. Arc/fire gets less benefit from crit, but not a LOT less, and gets a smidgen more benefit from haste.
I don't use precisely the same rotations as RAWR, the basis of my spreadsheets is the mix of spells I actually do in real play on most bosses. This may also influence my opinion on this topic.
Raencloud, there are diminishing returns on all 3 stats that makes assertions like that untrue for some gear levels and raid buffs/lack of raid buffs.
This is why tools like RAWR are so valuable. For an individual's gear, for his spec, you can at a moment in time come up with a comparison of the three dps attributes. But if he gets a bunch of haste gear, haste will be less valuable compared to spellpower and crit than it was before he had the gear. Likewise if you get a lot of crit, or even massive amounts of spellpower compared to your haste/crit. As a trend, the more you have of one attribute relative to other attributes, the less it is worth relative to other attributes.
The ratios imposed by talents and base spell damage allow such rules of thumb across "likely" gear levels, but for an individual such assumptions may not be true. They may also fall apart if your rotation doesn't match what the simulator does, or if your raid buffs are different than what you simulated.
Just as one example, RAWR almost certainly assumes bloodlust during molten fury range, where my spreadsheet averages the haste gain over all time (which is fine when we get two bloodlusts, one at beginning, one near end of fight, not so good if we only get one or if we get none because we're light on shamans that night and they're saving it for a harder fight.). I tend to under-represent the effects of stacking cooldowns relative to RAWR, but I'm not perfect at stacking them in real life, so my spreadsheet represents me better than RAWR does.
I use my spreadsheets as a conservative estimate, and tools like RAWR to set targets for myself.
I need to look at my last few WWS parses and see what raid buffs I've really been getting and make another spreadsheet to see how my ratios compare with those buffs on. I've been including the stuff I have control over (flasks, food, clicky-procs etc) but not outside effects. It's good to know how your gear behaves when you're in a 5 man vs when you're in a 25 man.
I don't recall seeing any specific gearsets or fight parameters being thrown out there so I generalized and assumed current end game gear. You yourself also generalized:
Originally Posted by solbergb
Yup. In a FFB or Arc/Fire build, crit > haste...depending on gear levels crit can be approximately equal to spellpower where haste is always significantly below. (decent, but not great)
I disagree with this generalization. In my experiences with Rawr, haste is always > crit. The only spec that changed that was FFB, and even then haste was valued higher than crit until I neared my optimal gearset. At that point, crit is just barely over haste.
I don't really know what your spreadsheet is doing, but for one if you are ignoring buffs and debuffs on the target, then you will certainly get vastly different results. I don't know why anyway would want to analyze this though. When I TC I want to maximize my DPS in a specific fight, so it's necessary to input in all parameters of the fight, including buffs and debuffs. In today's raid, its very uncommon to not have all the buffs. The only one I can think of that may be an exception to that rule is with an elemental shaman (we sometimes make our elemental shaman respec resto for certain fights), but with redundant class buffs, to not have one is silly.
In any case, unless someone mentions something different, I'm going to assume they are looking for answers to current raiding scenarios as well.
I will edit the first post later on to reflect values of spell power, crit, and haste as provided by Rawr. This comes in the form of the DPS increase of 11.7 spell power, 10 crit, 10 haste, and so forth.
If you look at the gemmings, you'll notice that 18.53. favors reckless over potent, and vice versa for 0.53.18. The reason is pretty straight-forward: fireball has a lower crit modifier than frostfire, but a higher base damage. The difference between a critical fireball and a non-crit is less significant than the difference between a critical frostfire and a non-crit. Haste, at the sacrifice of crit, would, theoretically, increase the number of non-crits you have, which is less of a loss for Fireball.
Was messing around with upgrades I need from 25-mans and created a rawr profile with standard FFB spec and 6079 dps. Used same buffs as you I believe. Did not include rune of razorice, which according to rawr would push it up almost 200 dps. Using version 2.1.9. My professions are enchanting and jewelcrafting. Standard enchants used. Here's the gear:
The arcane fixes and nerfs changed the dps of my set from post #50 to 6221 and I didnt see any obvious way of improving it gear-wise. Thats around 1% better than 18/53/0. Doesn't really seem worth the effort you have to put in arcane.
There isn't a whole lot of effort involved in collecting gear and gemming it. In fact, unless you are going from ffb to arcane, you don't even have to regem the common pieces (because ttw fire uses dmg haste gems and so does arcane). Even from ffb though, there is only 2y socket gems in your valorous that you would have to change.
Call me lazy, but I was talking about the dps/dpm rotation stuff that you have to deal with when you are arcane.
Its easier to play FB+TotW and get the results that Rawr shows you than it is to play Arcane and get those results.
Call me lazy, but I was talking about the dps/dpm rotation stuff that you have to deal with when you are arcane.
Its easier to play FB+TotW and get the results that Rawr shows you than it is to play Arcane and get those results.
I'm with Korrigan on this one. I'm not happy with my gap between actual and theoretical results in my fire rotation, and until I fix that up I'm not going to have a lot of incentive to pick a spec that is only a little better but is harder to get right.
Once I can get to 90-95% my theoretical damage in standing fights and can maintain most of that in things like sart+3d I'll be bored and want to experiment with arcane. For now, I gotta get out of the crawl stage.
I'm with Korrigan on this one. I'm not happy with my gap between actual and theoretical results in my fire rotation, and until I fix that up I'm not going to have a lot of incentive to pick a spec that is only a little better but is harder to get right.
Once I can get to 90-95% my theoretical damage in standing fights and can maintain most of that in things like sart+3d I'll be bored and want to experiment with arcane. For now, I gotta get out of the crawl stage.
TBH, I found Arcane much easier to play than FFB. Dealing with LBs, scorch, and Pyro proc's felt a little too much like playing a warlock, and I never cared much for that playstyle (ie managing DoT timers). I was never coming close to what Rawr said I should be with FFB. When I switched to arcane the first week of the changes, even using a very subpar dps rotation I still improved my DPS (I was doing AB-ABarr pretty much the whole night I believe). It probably had a lot more to do with me being under hit cap for FFB than anything (the dps increase anyway - me not matching Rawr is probably just my inability to manage everything), but the playstyle is much more simplistic to me and I can execute it far more consistently.
01/22/09, 4:18 PM
