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Old 05/22/09, 4:46 AM   #481
Toschi
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Onyxia (EU)
then the next question is: why didnt i receive the same stats with settings from page 1 ?

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Old 05/22/09, 4:59 AM   #482
Kandir
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
You can not give some definite answer about the value of range talents given the varying nature of the fights and the extent to which you're actually required to run. Compare nature of the Ignis fight with General V's and you'll see my point. But in general (in practice), yes, range is a good thing to have and can even give a dps advantage in certain encounters.

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Old 05/22/09, 6:05 AM   #483
Elminister
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Khadgar (EU)
Out of curiosity, wouldn't this build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0&version=9901

be better than your suggested build with only 2/3 Student of Mind ?

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Old 05/22/09, 6:16 AM   #484
lgtcount
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Akama
Originally Posted by Elminister View Post
Out of curiosity, wouldn't this build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0&version=9901

be better than your suggested build with only 2/3 Student of Mind ?

ok srsly, do people not understand flame throwing or some shit? Why is this even being brought up, ffs.

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Old 05/22/09, 7:25 AM   #485
radikal
Von Kaiser
 
radikal's Avatar
 
Human Mage
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by lgtcount View Post
ok srsly, do people not understand flame throwing or some shit? Why is this even being brought up, ffs.
Yeah, even on encounters where spacing doesn't matter a lot, if you have to move in/out of boss range, you buy almost a whole global with FF.

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Old 05/22/09, 8:11 AM   #486
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by Toschi View Post
well, why should i pick 6y range instread of 3/3 SotM & Cb (about 62dps)? i mean, which encounter assumes full range on fb etc ?
My classic example is Sartharion 3D. Due to the positioning of Sartharion (if you're looking down at the map, he's at the north end of the island), if you have 2/2 Flame Throwing, you do not need to move at all when a Flame Wall comes from the South. In this case, we called that a "side" wall. When you're looking down at the map, the flame wall that came from the right side of the screen would have an empty row at the south end. The flame wall that came from the left side would be called the "center" wall, because its empty row was in melee range (approximately).

With 2/2 Flame Throwing, you could stand in the clear space while the side wall passed and still DPS Sartharion. 3-6 yards less, and you would have been in the path of the fire.

Another example could be Grobbulus and needing to run out when you get the debuff. Sometimes blinking only gets you so far -- having to run 6 less yards is 1 less second (there and back, depending where your drop-off points were, naturally).

So I realize I haven't given any Ulduar fight examples, but I guess any easy but ambiguous answer would be: longer range means that on fights in which everyone needs to spread out, you have that much more control in where you can stand and still DPS the boss.

Originally Posted by Toschi View Post
then the next question is: why didnt i receive the same stats with settings from page 1 ?
I don't know -- how far off are you on? Are you running something in 2.2.4 that I have listed under 2.2.2? (I haven't updated every list). Are you sure your trinket procs are all set correctly? Everything has its correct socket bonus? No gems are a bit off, etc.?

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Old 05/22/09, 8:28 AM   #487
Toschi
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Onyxia (EU)
~30dps missing

gems, socket bonus, enchants and trinket procs are correct.
changed a few settings, but nothing changes. hmm, confusing

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Old 05/22/09, 8:47 AM   #488
semata
Von Kaiser
 
semata's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by Toschi View Post
~30dps missing

gems, socket bonus, enchants and trinket procs are correct.
changed a few settings, but nothing changes. hmm, confusing
If you can post your XML file it would be easy for everyone to tell you where the differences came from. But are you sure you are using the same version of Rawr?

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Old 05/22/09, 9:02 AM   #489
Toschi
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Onyxia (EU)
My Rawr 2.2.4 file

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Old 05/22/09, 9:30 AM   #490
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by Draagun View Post
As the designated scorcher I've swapped out Fireball Glyph for Scorch Glyph.
I tried one night of 10-man Ulduar with Glyph of Living Bomb/Glyph of Fireball/Glyph of Molten Armor. Half-way through I concluded that I'll be switching back to Glyph of Imp. Scorch. Having to refresh Scorch 4-5 seconds before it falls off, and having it fall off due to many things that can delay my ability to refresh it, was far too aggravating. Similarly, having to ramp up Scorch on every add that had a marginal amount of hitpoints was very time consuming. It was easy in BC, because practically every boss was just that one boss for the entire fight. There was no Hot Streak, no Pyroblast, just straight Fireball/Scorch, and very few adds.

Looking over your armory, Draagun, you definitely have enough spirit for Glyph of Molten Armor to be worthwhile: (601+52+80)*1.1 = 806, which gives you 3.51% crit from the glyph alone. Compared to Glyph of Fireball, this is probably the right move. I'm not quite at that point yet, so I'm still swapping out Glyph of Molten Armor for Imp. Scorch.

However, I've given this all some thought, and running with Glyph of Molten Armor (or Fireball) instead of Imp. Scorch could be, practically speaking, very close in DPS terms. Ideally, you would only cast Scorch on mobs that are going to be alive for more than a few fireballs. The reason being, you're already getting 6% crit from Molten Armor (at your spirit levels), and then another 3.5% from the glyph. Comparitively then, that's 6+3.5+3 (12.5%, including Imp. Scorch talent) to 6+5+3 (14% with Scorch debuff).

In other words, if your options were to cast scorch on only the mobs that are going to survive for a few fireballs, then without Glyph of Molten Armor (and with Scorch glyph), you'd be trading 3.5% for 5% (this is regardless of the fact that it may be better to use Glyph of Molten Armor over Glyph of Fireball), and practically speaking, it's worthwhile to cast scorch on every one of these mobs, since it only takes one Scorch to put the debuff up.

Without Glyph of Imp. Scorch, I would say that on any mob in which you'll need to refresh Scorch for another 30 second duration, it's probably beneficial to ramp up 5 debuffs of it. In all other cases, it's probably best to not cast Scorch at all. Sure, you're down 5% crit then for that duration, but compared to pre-3.1, you're still technically up with Scorch, and only slightly behind without Scorch.

For straight Fireball spam (naturally the crit rates of Living Bomb and Pyroblast matter, but we'll ignore that):

Pre-3.1 (with Scorch Glyph, and FB+MA since no LB glyph): 10% Scorch + 3% Molten Armor + 2% MA Glyph + 5% Fireball Glyph = 20% (required 2x Scorch casts)

3.1 without Scorch, with ~800 Spirit (MA+FB glyph): 6% Molten Armor + 3.5% MA Glyph + 3% Imp. Scorch talent + 5% FB Glyph = 17.5% (down 2.5%)

With 5% crit from Scorch, requiring 5 casts, this increases to 22.5%, up 2.5% over 3.1. Naturally, you're back to 5x casting instead of 2x. On bosses (and mini-bosses), this is worthwhile. On everything else, not so much.

Comparitively, if you replace either Glyph of Fireball or Glyph of Molten Armor with Glyph of Improved Scorch, you're practically guaranteed 5% crit on everything at all times, with very little down time due to refreshing, and at only one cast, there's almost no mob worth not casting it on. I'd say on a straight nuke fight, it's clearly still a DPS loss, but for everything else, the opportunity cost of having to 5x refresh is too high to not run with Glyph of Imp. Scorch. And yet, at the same time, the thing you have to consider is that, even when you're down 5% crit, you're not really down 5%, since you have crit coming in from other glyphs (be it FB or MA).

It's when you consider the time spent casting scorch (think heart phase on deconstructor, or the many phases of mimiron, or all the adds on freya or auriaya) that you lose DPS. I've probably gone on long enough, but my general conclusion is that most encounters in Ulduar seem to benefit from an instant Scorch debuff over the "passive" benefit of a minor increase in crit. And of course, there are worst case scenarios where you are unable to refresh mid-fight, and then you're back to ramping up scorch 5x.

(I should mention that I realize it's overkill if you have two mages both with Glyph of Improved Scorch, but that also assumes you run only 25-mans, or that you have more than one mage in a 10-man group.)

Last edited by Enthorn : 05/22/09 at 9:42 AM.

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Old 05/22/09, 2:37 PM   #491
 ash2ash
Operation Asian
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Blue post

It looks like the sets are going to have to be updated to reflect the JC changes.

I also wouldn't expect lightweave embroidery to be kept in its current form since it is now the best dps caster profession by a mile and change.

Last edited by ash2ash : 05/22/09 at 2:55 PM.

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Old 05/22/09, 3:00 PM   #492
Garlicsauce
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Originally Posted by ash2ash View Post
Blue post

It looks like the sets are going to have to be updated to reflect the JC changes.

I also wouldn't expect lightweave embroidery to be kept in its current form since it is now the best dps caster profession by a mile and change.
What exactly is Blizzard's reasoning behind this?

AFAIK Epic gems are also coming in the next major content patch. Won't this just make JC totally inferior to other profs?

Surely Tailoring should be looked at before Jewelcrafting.

I hate how they are doing this, I dropped Tailoring for JC just before the Lightweave change and now this? So if the other proffesions stay the same we are looking at Tailoring/BS for highest DPS in 3.2 ?

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Old 05/22/09, 3:08 PM   #493
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by ash2ash View Post
Blue post

It looks like the sets are going to have to be updated to reflect the JC changes.
Yep -- read about it a while ago. Here's a brief explanation for anyone wondering about the implications of the change:

We need 2 blue gems to activate [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]. This doesn't necessitate 2 blue sockets, but it does necessitate any 2 blue gems. Prismatic gems take on the quality of all gem colors, thus they activate all socket bonuses and they fulfill the requirements of needing 2 blue gems (but not necessarily blue sockets).

In the case of mages, it's common to find a number of blue sockets. These are normally filled with [Runed Scarlet Ruby], because under normal circumstances, the socket bonus is not enough to offset using [Purified Twilight Opal] over a straight [Runed Scarlet Ruby]. Here's where [Runed Dragon's Eye] came in. These were used to grab the socket bonuses of blue sockets, and in doing so, you'd also be replacing 9 SP/8 spirit with 32 spell power -- instead of replacing, for instance, 19 spell power, or 19 sp and 8 crit/haste.

Now that they are no longer being considered prismatic, I take this to mean that:

1) They will no longer count towards the 2 blue gems required -- in effect, players will need two [Purified Twilight Opal] in addition to their 3 prismatic gems.
2) As mentioned by Blizzard, they will no longer work towards activating socket bonuses. I'm not entirely sure how this one is going to play out, and what "color" they are going to take ("Like other gems, they will have to match the socket color to receive a socket bonus.")

I'm not entirely sure how much of a DPS loss this will be for Jewelcrafting, but it should bring it more in line with other professions. Also, until "epic" gems come into play, Blacksmithing's perks (Socket Bracer, Socket Gloves) are identical to Enchanting (38 spell power increase). Leatherworking and Inscription are both 37 spell power increases.

Last edited by Enthorn : 05/22/09 at 3:13 PM.

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Old 05/22/09, 3:11 PM   #494
Garlicsauce
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Ragnaros (EU)
Originally Posted by Enthorn View Post
I'm not entirely sure how this one is going to play out, and what "color" they are going to take ("Like other gems, they will have to match the socket color to receive a socket bonus.")
I think it's safe to assume that they will match the colour of their lesser counterparts, (eg. Runed Dragon's Eye = Red, just like Runed Scarlet Ruby)

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Old 05/22/09, 3:13 PM   #495
Masaru
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Mannoroth
2) As mentioned by Blizzard, they will no longer work towards activating socket bonuses. I'm not entirely sure how this one is going to play out, and what "color" they are going to take ("Like other gems, they will have to match the socket color to receive a socket bonus.")
I'd be surprised if it wasn't just a matter of matching up the qualifying part of the gem name, i.e. Runed = Red.

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