Optimal Sets / Item Discussion - Page 34

Enthorn · 12/15/09, 6:58 PM

I will update the main page with links to various posts once we have a better list of available equipment from 10-man and 25-man Icecrown. I realize loot lists are available (minus The Lich King's loot table) on wowarmory, but the problem is, both wowhead and, to an extent, Rawr, have used these lists which don't include any socket bonuses. This is neither Rawr's nor Wowhead's problem, as Wowhead gets its data from user contribution -- it just happened to update its cache from wowarmory this time around though. You can read more about that in the Rawr thread.

Additionally, various trinkets have not been modeled yet in Rawr ([Dislodged Foreign Object], [Phylactery of the Nameless Lich]), and I'm not sure about some staffs, whether they'll be modeled or not ([Nibelung], even though I highly doubt it will be on any BiS list).

Naturally, with the Lich King himself having a loot table one tier higher (at least the weapons, but I suspect all items), things will change with that as well.

Madlax · 12/15/09, 8:29 PM

Let me poke you guys over to the Warlock forums
http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...2/#post1494269
The interesting changes for the crit over spirit choices:
Take Frostbinder's Shredded Cape(back), Shadow Silk Spindle(offhand) and Blood Queen's Crimson Choker(neck w/o hit) and you´ll almost be there aswell.

Shaitans · 12/16/09, 5:10 PM

So I came up with this optimizer for top DPS using arcane spec. A couple of notes about what I did. This is based on Rawr 2.3.8. This also uses Troll as the race.

1. I only used normal 10 man and normal 25 ICC loot. My reasoning being that you won't be able to access heroic until the lich king is killed. I plan on posting a heroic version of the BiS once more is known about the heroic socket bonuses. However, there are some differences based on a preliminary optimization (Death's surgeon's sleeves take over, Blood Queen's Necklace takes over, Frostbinder's Cloak takes over, Gunship Mittens become the preferred offset item [assuming 277 pants], Ring of Rapid Ascent takes over, but what's most interesting is that the trinkets stay the same [that means Heroic Reign of the Dead will still be a BiS trinket]).

2. This is a tailoring/enchanting professions. There is still a decent argument that engineering is better, but I'm not an engineer.

3. Using these limitations, the best setup in terms of tier set is to get the crafted leggings offset.

DPS Score = 12985
Spell Power = 3940
Haste = 1173
Crit = 1126
Hit = 213

Head: [Sanctified Bloodmage Hood] Gem: Chaotic Skyflare/Purified Dreadstone ... Enchant/Enhancement: Arcanum of Burning Mysteries
Neck: [Amulet of the Silent Eulogy] Gem: Reckless Ametrine
Shoulders: [Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads] Gem: Reckless Ametrine ... Enchant/Enhancement: Greater Inscription of the Storm
Back: [Aethas' Intensity] Gem: Runed Cardinal ... Enchant/Enhacement: Lightweave Embroidery
Chest: [Sanctified Bloodmage Robe] Gem: Runed Cardinal/Purified Dreadstone ... Enchant/Enhacement: Powerful Stats
Wrist: [Bindings of the Ashen Saint] Gem: Runed Cardinal ... Enchant/Enhacement: Superior Spellpower
Hands: [Sanctified Bloodmage Gloves] Gem: Runed Cardinal ... Enchant/Enhancement: Exceptional Spellpower
Waist: [Crushing Coldwraith Belt] Gem: Purified Dreadstone, 2x Runed Cardinal
Legs: [Leggings of Woven Death] Gem: Runed Cardinal, Reckless Ametrine, Purified Dreadstone ... Enchant/Enhacement: Sanctified Spellthread
Feet: [Plague Scientist's Boots] Gem: Purified Dreadstone ... Enchant/Enhacement: Tuskarr's Vitality
Ring 1: [Valanar's Other Signet Ring] Gem: Runed Cardinal ... Enchant/Enhacement: Greater Spellpower
Ring 2: [Ashen Band of Endless Destruction] Gem: Runed Cardinal ... Enchant/Enhancement: Greater Spellpower
Trinket 1: [Reign of the Dead]
Trinket 2: [Dislodged Foreign Object]
Main Hand: [Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony] Enchant/Enhancement: Black Magic
Off Hand: [Shadow Silk Spindle]
Ranged: [Corpse-Impaling Spike]

Maje · 12/18/09, 8:04 PM

Just a heads up, [Ashen Band of Unmatched Destruction] is currently modeled by rawr as having 10% proc chance with 45s ICD whilst in reality the ICD is 60 seconds. After half an hour spamming Ice Lance on a dummy the shortest time between procs was 1 minutes, the uptime was 15%. So the proc is worth about 42.75 spellpower.

Once I get the exalted version I'll check if the proc has the same ICD, but there is no reason it shouldn't.

EDIT: Exalted version is also 60s ICD.

Taja · 01/10/10, 9:00 AM

phrynia · 01/10/10, 4:11 PM

How do you have level 277 versions of tier gear when the list is for 10m guilds? Don't tokens for that only drop in 25 man heroic version of ICC?

Aestis · 01/10/10, 5:02 PM

Phrynia, I'm assuming that's because the forums automatically link the Heroic versions of loot in [item] tags, when you don't specify a specific item ID.

Taja · 01/10/10, 6:04 PM

You were right Aestis, I have changed the names to item ID's now and they display the correct 264 items.

Lennies · 01/11/10, 3:30 PM

[Reign of the Unliving] is a 25 man raid item, this is a 10 man list.

Anobix · 01/11/10, 5:09 PM

Just a quick FYI, I read that an ensidia mage has received the Dislodged Foreign Object and it indeed has a 45sec ICD and stacks up to 10. So the best way to currently model the trinket in rawr is the average the spellpower over the duration.
Trigger DamageSpellHit, Internal cooldown 45 seconds, Proc chance 10%, Spell Power 577.5, max stacks 1.

I hope that helps, and from the way it works out it will most likely be BiS for arcane mages (as long as you aren't breaking the haste cap).

I will be interested to see if we can find a good way to model nibelung. Right now I am using the Ony 25man sword + Surplus Limb (I know, bad drop rng sucks for casters in my guild) but would like to know if it is worth dropping the sword + offhand for it even with a relatively small proc rate the extra 1k dps may (or may not) be worth the loss of extra stats of haste/crit/hit/etc.

Hinalover · 01/11/10, 5:24 PM

Well, I do know the next release of RAWR will have support for Nibelung as well as the Dislodged Foreign Object.

For the Dislodged Foreign Object, they are taking the average of the max amount of SP it grants and the minimum amount of sp it grants. In this case, it's basically giving it a 577.5 Spell Power bonus for 20 seconds every 45 seconds for then normal, 665.5 for the heroic.

For the Nibelung, it is giving it a flat 27,008 Damage modifier.

UtherFuthark · 01/12/10, 2:20 PM

Since Nibelung is fresh and we don't havei nfo on proc rate and the dps addition from the Val'kyr like Hinalover said, I'd say a MH/OH Combo would serve you better if you've got an Ony sword and that old offhand. Try for Heroic Sunreaver Disciple's blade and Lightbane Focus combo, if you can't get disciples, Blade of Tarasque is pretty good despite the hit.

Hinalover · 01/12/10, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by UtherFuthark

Since Nibelung is fresh and we don't havei nfo on proc rate and the dps addition from the Val'kyr like Hinalover said, I'd say a MH/OH Combo would serve you better if you've got an Ony sword and that old offhand. Try for Heroic Sunreaver Disciple's blade and Lightbane Focus combo, if you can't get disciples, Blade of Tarasque is pretty good despite the hit.

Actually the next version of RAWR is factoring in Crit rating and proc chance. They are currently basing their information from this thread

Rawr.Mage

This is currently what is being used as the coding for the proc.

/// 5% crit rate, 1.5 crit multiplier, not affected by talents, affected only by target debuffs
                float damage = 27008;
                if (id == 50648)
                {
                    damage = 27008; // enter value for heroic when it becomes known
                }

Finally, they are pegging the proc rate at 1% with no ICD and no stacking.

Reiko-ursin · 01/12/10, 5:30 PM

I got Nibelung the first week of ICC 25 and I'm currently only using it during aoe situations. Is there a final verdict on what procs it and whether or not it would be better than anything else for fire (with near constant upkeep of LB, ignite and pyro ticks)? Should I just assume rawr will take all that into account for fire build? Thanks!

Kavan · 01/12/10, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Reiko-ursin

I got Nibelung the first week of ICC 25 and I'm currently only using it during aoe situations. Is there a final verdict on what procs it and whether or not it would be better than anything else for fire (with near constant upkeep of LB, ignite and pyro ticks)? Should I just assume rawr will take all that into account for fire build? Thanks!

No you shouldn't assume that. Currently it's modeled as on cast proc, which means 1 proc chance from LB explosion, 1 proc chance from FB and Pyro cast, nothing for Ignite currently. If anyone has any evidence otherwise let me know and I'll change it.

Semitote · 01/13/10, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

Well, I do know the next release of RAWR will have support for Nibelung as well as the Dislodged Foreign Object.

For the Dislodged Foreign Object, they are taking the average of the max amount of SP it grants and the minimum amount of sp it grants. In this case, it's basically giving it a 577.5 Spell Power bonus for 20 seconds every 45 seconds for then normal, 665.5 for the heroic.

For the Nibelung, it is giving it a flat 27,008 Damage modifier.

Are you sure it's 577.5? When I did the math I got something like 472.5. I might not have counted the last stack though as it hits at 20 seconds, not sure if it actually hits that number or just goes away.

Also, on an unrelated note - I was optimizing for BiS of currently released gear - including next week's new wing and I actually had it gemming one Quick King's Amber for fb/ttw spec. Is anyone else getting this same result? It still shows Reckless Ametrine ahead of Quick King's Amber AFTER I've gemmed the Quick King's Amber, but if the socket is empty, it shows Quick King's Amber as more DPS than Reckless Ametrine. First time I've actually seen this and the whole reason I added Quick King's Amber into the optimization is because I noticed some red/prismatic typically Runed Cardinal Ruby slots were coming back as Reckless Ametrines as well. The entire gearset has something like 1020 haste rating & 4 piece T10 264. Perhaps the 4-piece is valuing haste exceptionally high to get extra casts off in the 30 seconds of 18% damage you get every 3 mins?

Hinalover · 01/13/10, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Semitote

Are you sure it's 577.5? When I did the math I got something like 472.5. I might not have counted the last stack though as it hits at 20 seconds, not sure if it actually hits that number or just goes away.

Currently this is how it's being calculated in RAWR

                float min = initialSP;
                float max = initialSP + additionalSP * (time / frequency - 1f);
                float averageSP = (min + max) / 2f;

By that information

min = 105;
max = 105 + 105 * (20/2 - 1);
max = 1050;
averageSP = (105 + 1050)/2;
averageSP = 577.5;

Maje · 01/13/10, 10:30 PM

The reason it's 577.5 is because when it procs you gain 105 spellpower so at 0 - 2: 105 spellpower at 18 - 20 seconds you would have 1050 spellpower, on average that amounts to 577.5 ie. (105 + 1050) / 2.

Hibbo · 01/15/10, 7:20 AM

I found a great Tool (Website) called "Spellhaste Calculator" from Milamber where you can check your Spell Haste and your Caps for "Soft-Haste" under a variaton of different Spell Haste Buffs when you reach the GCD. or maybe just use it to calculate the Spell Haste you need after you changed some gear to get out a 4th AB under the T10/2 Buff.

Hope this can help some of you in optimizing their gear.

Spellhastecap Calculator

Dustwhisper · 01/18/10, 9:09 AM

Thanks for that Hibbo, that's quite helpfull! I'm obviously having to stack things a bit differently atm as I'm fielding 1178 passive hasterating. I'm actually hoping I'll get frozen bonespike or similar soon as I wouldn't mind dropping some haste >_<.

BTW how is procs like the surge from dislodged foreign object affecting AM? Will casting AM right as the end buffs grant the buff for every missile or would it be smarter to make sure AM has full duration whilst debuff is up? I'm not sure about those mechanics anymore sadly.

Faxmonkey · 01/22/10, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dustwhisper

Thanks for that Hibbo, that's quite helpfull! I'm obviously having to stack things a bit differently atm as I'm fielding 1178 passive hasterating. I'm actually hoping I'll get frozen bonespike or similar soon as I wouldn't mind dropping some haste >_<.

BTW how is procs like the surge from dislodged foreign object affecting AM? Will casting AM right as the end buffs grant the buff for every missile or would it be smarter to make sure AM has full duration whilst debuff is up? I'm not sure about those mechanics anymore sadly.

Unless something has changed very recently, each missile checks your spell power separately.

Ilyawen · 01/29/10, 1:04 PM

To bring something up that I think most of us instinctively discarded as being utterly unviable:

[Maghia's Misguided Quill]

I know, I know, its a terrible high ammount of hit, but here is what I was thinking: With this trinket, the T10 gloves and the exalted Ashen Verdict ring, you basically outright hitcap from only 3 slots, especially on the highest level gloves.

Since you dont overcap though, this gives you space to equip non-hit pieces on everything else. On the negative side, this pushes you towards a few undesirable items potentially (haven't made up a full gearset yet). Most of them are decent though, and you can achieve comparable stats to what you'd get from a more "normal" gearset.

And then there is the trinket. Even though it quite surely doesn't come out top compared to heroic Reign of the Dead, from my look at it it could really add a lot of punch to Arcanes cooldown-pushes. Think this trinket, plus a fully stacked Object-thingy, and you see us easily at 6k Spellpower. Actually, the more I think of it, the better it works, especially on fights where, with stacking buffs and burnphases (think Blood Queen, or Jaraxxus), Arcane is at an advantage anyway.

Any math and/or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

♦ nathanbp · 01/29/10, 1:53 PM

The problem with hit trinkets is that the tradeoff for getting hit in your other slots is minimal. For non-trinket slots, you're getting hit instead of crit or spirit, neither of which is an amazing dps stat. For the Quill vs Reign, you're getting hit in return for losing an amazing proc. Some fiddling around with Rawr will quickly show you that the Quill has no place in an optimal gear set.

Dochas · 01/29/10, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ilyawen

To bring something up that I think most of us instinctively discarded as being utterly unviable:

[Maghia's Misguided Quill]

I know, I know, its a terrible high ammount of hit, but here is what I was thinking: With this trinket, the T10 gloves and the exalted Ashen Verdict ring, you basically outright hitcap from only 3 slots, especially on the highest level gloves.

Since you dont overcap though, this gives you space to equip non-hit pieces on everything else. Actually, the more I think of it, the better it works, especially on fights where, with stacking buffs and burnphases (think Blood Queen, or Jaraxxus), Arcane is at an advantage anyway.

It does overcap you. 8% for horde is 210 rating, 7% for alliance is 184. 152 from trinket + 51 from ring puts you at 203, already over cap for alliance and just shy of cap for horde, meaning gloves would put you either over or way over hit cap, not to mention the fact that the weapon choices are sp/crit or sp/hit/haste (which is the better option).

As it is there are a number of items that would be valid options if we weren't capping our hit so quickly (ie Amulet of the Silent Eulogy), using the trinket would further limit our options to crit only options that are suboptimal. You don't end up with any gains by using that trinket, it's not like having the hit there frees you up to take good non-hit options elsewhere, you already have to take the non-hit options is just about every slot. And in return you are not using a good trinket like Reign, losing a ton of constant sp + a proc thats 2.5-3% dps.

In addition, I don't really see fights like Blood Queen as a burn phase fight, you don't get the buff for only 20 seconds. It's a sustained dps fight with a damage buff. I haven't seen any fight where wearing suboptimal gear but being able to stack an extra 716 sp for 20 seconds would be beneficial.

Taja · 01/30/10, 6:34 AM

Question about Rawr. I made the 10m Arcane BiS list a few posts back. This was however with a spriest in mind. I decided to make a 10m list without the misery buff ticked but it just keep giving me all the same options of gear, except that it wants to gem 12sp 10 hit everywhere till the hitcap is reached. While at first it seems like switching from [Pattern: Sandals of Consecration] to [Pattern: Deathfrost Boots] would better solve the problem. Dropping the spirit instead of switching 4 gems for hit. Any tips how to solve this?