The optimizer doesn't gaurantee to find the best set. If you think you have a better one, just try it and compare the DPS to the one the optimizer found.

In my opinion, the Rawr optimizer is pretty good for classes with multiple caps and complicated mechanics that make the relative stat values jump around a lot (and thus, a manual approach would run a high risk of ending up in a local optimum instead of a global one).

But mages only have one stat with a cap (haste and crit could get capped, but realistically, won't). I find that I can get optimizer-like, or better-than-optimizer results, through this simple process (which I do in Rawr):

- Manually equip stuff for max DPS against a level 80 mob
- Note how big a DPS loss (against level 80 mobs) I'll take for the best (or the 2 best) hit pieces in every slot, and calculate their hit rating gained / point of DPS lost ratio
- Equip the hit items with the best tradeoffs until I reach either hit cap, or the ratio becomes worse than the Veiled Ametrine's ratio (then I gem). I may end up a few points under hit cap; check if the ratio to go over cap with a gem is higher or lower than the ratio of dps lost for being uncapped.

The only thing that remains slightly complicated is deciding which off-set piece to take. A bit of playing around fixes it.

Or you could just plug yourself into rawr, add your likely raid buffs, and run it. As mages gear up in ICC, the possiblity of hitting a haste softcap is pretty realistic. I think it's been stated that for a Troll mage, the number could be as low as 835 base haste. Even without any heroic ToC gear, I am at 819. When trying to calculate optimal rotations for arcane..."eyeballing it", is going to be the least accurate, by a long shot

First, sorry about my english
According to this numbers, if you can't DPS during the stack n° X, you loose Y% of the total proc of [Dislodged Foreign Object], normal version, for a arc mage.

X: Y
1: 1.81
2: 3.63
3: 5.45
4: 7.27
5: 9.09
6: 10.91
7: 12.73
8: 14.55
9: 16.37
10: 18.11

First question: Are this numbers right ?(that's % of current stack / total SP gains during the 20sec )
Second question: Is this trinket really interesting in ICC with "mouvement fight" ? (About how much sec of downtime dps it isn't interesting ). I mean, imagine that you need to move during stack 7 and 8, you lose something like 27% of the total SP of the trinket's proc. But maybe the little CD make it really interesting in a "mouvement fight " too ... but i'm not sure.

Other proc trinkets should have the same issues. DFO is just going to have more spiky benefit than other proc trinkets.

In case someone is interested here's the arc BIS hm list i get for jc/engee. Dislodged being modeled as mentioned some posts before. Interestingly in contrast to the normal mode list the set legs become bis. The alternative combo of gunship captains mittens and death surgeons sleeves is only 17 dps behind so one might as well pick up these two.

Dps: 14292.66
Sequence:

Helm:	[Sanctified Bloodmage Hood]	[Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]	[Purified Dreadstone]		[Arcanum of Burning Mysteries]
Neck:	[Blood Queen's Crimson Choker]	[Runed Dragon's Eye]
Shoulders:	[Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads]	[Reckless Ametrine]			[Greater Inscription of the Storm]
Back:	[Frostbinder's Shredded Cape]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]			Springy Arochnoweave
Chest:	[Sanctified Bloodmage Robe]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]	[Purified Dreadstone]		[Scroll of Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats]
Wrist:	[The Lady's Brittle Bracers]	[Reckless Ametrine]			[Scroll of Enchant Bracer - Superior Spellpower]
Hands:	[San'layn Ritualist Gloves]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]		Hyperspeed Accelarators
Waist:	[Crushing Coldwraith Belt]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]	[Runed Dragon's Eye][Runed Dragon's Eye]	[Eternal Belt Buckle]
Legs:	[Sanctified Bloodmage Leggings]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]	[Reckless Ametrine]		[Brilliant Spellthread]
Boots:	[Plague Scientist's Boots]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]		Rocket boots
Finger:	[Ring of Rapid Ascent]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]
Finger:	[Ashen Band of Endless Destruction]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]
Trinket:	[Reign of the Dead]
Trinket:	[Dislodged Foreign Object]
Main Hand:	[Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony]	[Runed Cardinal Ruby]			Black magic
Off Hand:	[Shadow Silk Spindle]
Wand:	[Corpse-Impaling Spike]

interesting its better for engee /jc as well. Thanks for the pointer (updated accordingly). Nevertheless, the difference is as you said 20 dps so id consider the choices pretty much equal, and whatever goes around cheaper wins

I find that the out of set items (for my current arcane talents, at least) available to me favor using the set gloves and tailor crafted Leggings of Woven Death. Once again, this is my BiS, based on items available to me and my talents.
It shouldn't be viewed as the best option for everyone, as it is my own REALISTIC list based on content/gear that is available to me for my guild's capabilities. I just posted it to hopefully help someone else realize, that what's best for another, may not be best for you. You should use Rawr's "Item Set Comparison" tool, or optimizer to find you own Best Gear.
While it's nice to dream about the absolute BiS list, we would also like to dream that we will have a disc priest in our pocket keeping a constant PWS on us for IA. In reality, everyone is going to have different raid compositions, and not everyone is going to be able to farm HICC.

No 277 Legs instead of T10? You replaced gloves with Haste+Spirit, and i am sure there are Legs with Haste+Spirit (or crit) too if i remember correct. Therefore the upgrade from Leg Offpiece would be higher. Also Rawr lists Muradins Spyglass better then Anub HM Trinket. And the more stats i get, the better muradin is, atleast in my rawr ^^

if these legs are available then i have yet to find them but your are invited to post your result if it's better. The haste/sp and sp gemming changes at will because they are very close and if you gain as low as 10 sp one gem slot could change from sp to sp haste and vice versa. I am not sure if there is a better gemming template available but even if the difference would hardly be more then 5 dps. For this setup rawr listed rotd above muradins that's why it's posted. i'd assume that the sp on rotd gets more value the higher your haste. More then muradins crit at least or your simply using another version and muradins was modelled differently there? I was using 2.3.8.

@bbies: thats what different BIS lists like e.g. icc normal only are for. I was interested in the icc25hm BIS since that stuff should be available to me. There was a similar list posted for icc25 and yes the crafted pants are in there and a lot of poeple use them so there is sure nothing wrong with that. I am using them myself with the set gloves at the moment. But when it comes down choices like which set item an HM token to redeem for these lists are valuable to me

Reading all of the discussion about the Dislodged Foreign Object trinket, and running a lot of numbers on Rawr and Simcraft, as well as talking to some people- I have come to the conclusion that you all have reached already. DFO is BiS for arcane mages.

I am running at about 1018 haste right now without black magic, as I am using a staff atm, my question is this- when, if ever is dropping below the gcd actually detrimental to your overall dps in a standard 5 minute patchwerk burn style fight? My first thinking was that reign and muradin's would be my trinkets throughout most of ICC- given the extreme haste at high levels of gear- I thought I would be bypassing DFO and leaving it for spriests and AFF locks. Is the spell power gain (577, whatever it averages out to be) actually that gigantic that dropping down to a .853XXX sec AB wouldn't matter in the 40 seconds heroism is active? Especially taking into account 4 piece t10 and 18% damage during a good portion of that time while images are active?

Thank you in advance for any responses, I am a first time poster, and I apologize for being a little wordy

Thank you for the response.

What you are saying is exactly what I was thinking. So would an alternative to gemming more runed over reckless, or picking up a Crit/ SP over a Haste/SP off-piece be to just go all out with your haste rating, including DFO and stagger your CD's as to not dip below the 1 second AB mark?

I guess my question is this, how much haste is too much?

Is there such a thing as too much if you manipulate CD's in an effective way? (I am assuming, of course, that a 2300+, or whatever cap it is to reach 1.0 AB's from gear is unreachable at this point in time)

My impression of things is that it's almost impossible to obtain enough haste to make it too much. Someone did the math already and if you decouple Icy Veins from Bloodlust and use them separately, 1s ABs require something silly like 1600 haste. And even if you get there, you only get those buffs for a small portion of the fight so it's generally still better to have haste.

There really is no such thing as too much haste, at least with the current gear obtainable in game. "Wasting" c/ds is something that is under your control, the only cap worth any consideration is the amount of passive haste that will cap you with raid buffs+BL+pushing the limit which is 1633 passive haste rating, or 1383 with black magic. The best guesstimate for c/ds is that you want to stagger them in such a way that even if pushing the limit and black magic overlap you will not be below 1s with ab. In reality it is more complicated than that because power-ups can make some clipping worth it, you could be comparing scenarios like a 1.2s ab during AP/DFO vs. a .9s ab (before black magic) during AP/DFO; in this case even though you are clipping it may be the better choice.

The best general rules I can think of are the following:
1. Assume pushing the limit is always active.
2. If an active c/d moves you from a non-clipping situation to a clipping one just barely and occurs during a power-up that is ok.
3. Once in a clipping situation it is a waste to use any more cast speed enhancing c/ds.

Example:
You have 1200 passive haste, a staff (so no black magic), and want to open a fight with quad core and AP once pushing the limit is up, also raid leader says BL will be a few seconds after start. With just those buffs you will already be at a 1.1s ab, to get closer to 1s you can use either a speed potion or hyperspeed accelerators which will give you a cast time a little under or over 1s respectively.

Beyond those simple rules everything else is very fight and gear dependant.

I'm a bit confused. Is this ONLY hard mode gear? Or is this what you say is the BiS out of everything? I was under the impression that regular DFO > H Reign

I believe he is under the impression that DFO will not stack with the heroic DFO.

I run with a 10 man group that varies its group composition quite a bit. A friend pointed me towards this site (Spellhastecap Calculator) for a quick reference as to what the cap is for any combination of buffs so I can vary my gear accordingly.

Yes, unfortunately one can only equip either the normal or the hc version of DFO so the hc version made it. Regarding Muradin's: while it is rated higher in a 1:1 comparison rawr rates RotD above muradins when employed in this gear setup. I'd love to see some maths for this but i'd assume that this is related to the low value of crit rating for arcane in combination with the "dps value increase" for the sp from RotD of the gear's haste.

This is correct, for a "high" amount of haste RotD will come out clearly ahead of Muradin's, well for a lower value they will be close. Since in any BiS or close to BiS setup it can be assumed your haste value is sufficiently high you can assume RotD will be better for you.

Hello, I'm a bit new to EJ but not to WoW. I've noticed that the current BiS lists aren't optimal, and I've recompiled new ones in Rawr. (I don't know how to sort them on tables like everyone else though, so if someone could do that, things would be great.

Fire is with the 3.3.2 changes, not the 3.3.3, so Fire should be a tad higher. There is no IA for Arcane preset.


EDIT: Fixed an error with the chest piece, item ID got changed from my previous list.

Arcane -


[Sanctified Bloodmage Hood] - Head
[Blood Queen's Crimson Choker] - Neck (23 SP)
[Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads] - Shoulders (12 SP 10 Hit)
[Frostbinder's Shredded Cape] - Cape
[Sanctified Bloodmage Robe] - Chest
[Death Surgeon's Sleeves] - Bracers (23 SP)
[Sanctified Bloodmage Gloves] - Gloves (23 SP)
[Crushing Coldwraith Belt] - Belt
[Leggings of Woven Death] - Legs
[Plague Scientist's Boots] - Feet
[Ring of Rapid Ascent] - Ring 1 (23 SP)
[Ashen Band of Endless Destruction] - Ring 2
[Dislodged Foreign Object] - Trinket 1
[Reign of the Dead] - Trinket 2
[Rigormortis] - Mainhand
[Shadow Silk Spindle] - Offhand
[Corpse-Impaling Spike] - Wand


All other gems are assumed to be 12 SP 10 haste for yellow socket, 23 SP for red, and 12 SP 10 Spr for Blue This also considers the mage is JC/Engy



Now, once you get access to Hard mode arthas 25 weapons, only this changes

[Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads] - Shoulders (12 sp 10 haste)
[Plaguebringer's Stained Pants] - Legs
[Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony] - Mainhand

(15082 dps with preset latency ext, demo warlock with 5000 spellpower.)


------------------------

Fire however... I've only gotten the BiS list with Arthas 25h, and I'll need to fiddle with it to get the non-arthas BiS.




[Sanctified Bloodmage Hood] - Head
[Amulet of the Silent Eulogy] - Neck (12sp 10hit)
[Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads] - Shoulders (12 sp 10 haste)
[Frostbinder's Shredded Cape] - Cape (12sp 10hit)
[Sanctified Bloodmage Robe] - Chest
[The Lady's Brittle Bracers] - Bracers (12sp 10hit)
[Sanctified Bloodmage Gloves] - Gloves (23 SP)
[Crushing Coldwraith Belt] - Belt
[Plaguebringer's Stained Pants] - Legs (12sp 10crit)
[Plague Scientist's Boots] - Feet
[Ring of Rapid Ascent] - Ring 1
[Ashen Band of Endless Destruction] - Ring 2 (12sp 10hit)
[Dislodged Foreign Object] - Trinket 1
[Phylactery of the Nameless Lich] - Trinket 2
[Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony] - Mainhand
[Shadow Silk Spindle] - Offhand
[Corpse-Impaling Spike] - Wand (12sp 10 hit)

(Total DPS 14814. All gems that are not specified are considered to be... Red: 23sp, yellow: 12sp 10haste, blue:12sp 10spr. same 5000sp warlock, Focus swapping.)

Considering mage is JC/engy

You probably entered a wrong item ID here but both sets have a pair of pants in the chest slot, that might be a bit awkward. =p

Is there a BiS list for 10 man non-heroic ICC? I couldn't seem to find one