Decurse/blinking: lower the dps time setting
Mana drains: set mana drain and drain frequency
Periodic AOE (I assume you mean boss AOE for pushback): set interrupt frequency
Add rushes (I assume you mean time spent AOEing adds by the player): set AOE target level, number of targets and duration (% of fight spent AOEing)
Healthstone/Health pot: disable mana potion, mana gem, speed potion, wild magic potion
And yes, every fight is going to have some degree of variance. For example, if instructor Raz targets you with his knifey thing (that's the technical term) every single time he uses it, you're going to suffer more damage loss to pushback than average. But you can no better predict completely random occurances than rawr can.
Furthermore, if you decide you need more mana regen or resist gear or whatever for a given fight due to conditions, it's going to help you select the pieces to swap that will have the lowest impact on your DPS bottom line.
1./2. You can't set something that's random. (ie KT mana drain, sometimes it doesn't happen, sometimes i get it far too often)
2. I do not. once <Cwal ops> tries sarth 3d you'll see what i was getting at.
3. In fact, when i think of add rush, i think of M'uru (pre nerf, you missed that one)
4. See #1, the issue is randomness in an encounter.
5. Pushback has nothing to do with this. in fact, pushback would decrease your mps. I don't know what you were going for here.
6. Absolutely, and i gave 2 pieces as *options* based on numbers rawr gave me.
Current content is easy, but i am looking toward Ulduar and the unknown. Using past content I gave some examples of things you can't simply theorycraft and get a single pretty number. I have given a set that i had personally found for max single target dps with the conditions i stated in the previous post. Then, i had given further options that while are not optimal for the patchwerk/brut type fight have thier uses.
I expected people to find flaws in my set, but i did not expect people to find fault in having optional gear. I'm quite baffled by that. I apologize if i sound annoyed.
It's something else entirely. Gear choices, that is. Rawr is looking at very specific scenarios, if not one scenario. And although you can enter things like DPS time, pushback, mitigation, and so forth, most people don't care about that, because what it comes down to is: if my gear can do the most damage in scenario A, then it probably will do the most damage in scenario B.
Thus, survivability is something that is something else entirely. I mean, anyone has the option to make changes to their gear in Rawr for various reasons. This is why I've emphasized that it's not imperative, in the least sense, for anyone's numbers to match up across the board. Neither is it useful to look at DPS in Rawr and then head to WWS and bash your head against the wall wondering why you couldn't mirror the results in-game.
Last but not least, as Manly has noted quite a few times, optimal gear isn't something that is necessarily around the corner. It's not like you go to the store and select what you want. A lot of guilds use DKP systems and this can be restricting on, not what you have access to (drop rate controls that), but how quickly you obtain something once it does drop.
So it's with a grain of salt that people should look at lists. Take for instance this post which details that you don't need all the gear listed in the Fireball spec set to get near-same numbers. Some people want that extra 10 DPS. Some people want that list of what to shoot for. For everyone else, the difference between 4-piece T7 with Gothik's Cowl, 4-piece T7 with Heigan's Putrid Vestments, and 4-piece T7 with Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster is absolutely trivial. And it comes down to what item drops.
I have set a model on rawr 2.1.9 for 57.3.11 which is what I am running right now with all possible buffs and settings for a 25-man settings and I am getting the [Spellweave Gloves] as second best in slot ([Gloves of Token Respect] is the first).
Am I the only one getting this or is this correct? Feels that a the valorous gloves should be higher in there.
Other than that the model looks pretty similar to laekoth.
If other gloves are higher than the frostfire ones, it's likely because you already have the 4pc set bonus completed with head/shoulders/chest/legs, therefore adding the gloves only changes the stats and doesn't add the set bonus.
Since we'll presume you're hitcapped as arcane (it's hard not to be) and that you're socketing a +19 ruby in the frostfire gloves, your tradeoffs going from frostfire to token respect would be:
-7 stam
-53 crit
-38 hit
-4 intellect
+53 spi
+43 haste
Since crit scales badly for arcane compared to haste, trading 53 crit for 43 haste is definitely a gain, the 38 hit you lose is likely over cap anyway, and the 53 spirit on top is at least something the spec can put to some use.
Now, if you were to unequip another piece of heroic T7 (head/shoulders/chest/legs), you'd almost certainly see the frostfire gloves shoot back up to the top spot as they gain the "value" of completing the set bonus once again (and as a side-effect, you would see the relative value of frostfire in the T7 slot you unequipped drop compared to alternatives)
Edit: Included the intellect from the T7 socket bonus in the comparison, just to be thorough.
So it's with a grain of salt that people should look at lists. Take for instance this post which details that you don't need all the gear listed in the Fireball spec set to get near-same numbers. Some people want that extra 10 DPS. Some people want that list of what to shoot for. For everyone else, the difference between 4-piece T7 with Gothik's Cowl, 4-piece T7 with Heigan's Putrid Vestments, and 4-piece T7 with Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster is absolutely trivial. And it comes down to what item drops.
I posted a set of gear before that only used 2 pc T7 and was only slightly behind the optimal 4pc T7 setup (about 20 dps lower). At the time I thought it was actually the best setup, enthorn thankfully corrected me on that but it just adds to the point he is trying to make here; there are several setups that come so close to optimal that the difference is trivial, however I would add one caveat. Most of the items in all these optimal setups ARE the same or in several of the setups, they only differ by 3-4 pieces from each other even across specs. There are some items like turning tide, dragon soul, etc... that are just THAT good.
Here is the setup (0/53/18) for anyone interested:
Optimal DPS Set w/o 4pc:
If other gloves are higher than the frostfire ones, it's likely because you already have the 4pc set bonus completed with head/shoulders/chest/legs, therefore adding the gloves only changes the stats and doesn't add the set bonus.
Since we'll presume you're hitcapped as arcane (it's hard not to be) and that you're socketing a +19 ruby in the frostfire gloves, your tradeoffs going from frostfire to token respect would be:
-7 stam
-53 crit
-38 hit
-4 intellect
+53 spi
+43 haste
Since crit scales badly for arcane compared to haste, trading 53 crit for 43 haste is definitely a gain, the 38 hit you lose is likely over cap anyway, and the 53 spirit on top is at least something the spec can put to some use.
Now, if you were to unequip another piece of heroic T7 (head/shoulders/chest/legs), you'd almost certainly see the frostfire gloves shoot back up to the top spot as they gain the "value" of completing the set bonus once again (and as a side-effect, you would see the relative value of frostfire in the T7 slot you unequipped drop compared to alternatives)
Edit: Included the intellect from the T7 socket bonus in the comparison, just to be thorough.
Interesting you should say that. I don't actually have 4pc T7, I have 3 pieces right, but what don't understand isn't the fact that the token respect is high, it's the fact that the spellweave gloves are higher than the T7 gloves and many others.
This brings another subject into my mind. If every single change of gear I go through impacts what is the best in slot for each slot (For example if I go below hit cap rawr is gonna tell me to get hit gear) how does one set up so rawr so that it shows the most optimal gearset for a certain spec?
There are still things in rawr that I need to understand, I know how to use most of the stuff but I have no idea how to make rawr tell me what would be the most optimal set for dps (As an example) on certain condition (Like including T7, or not including T7 and so on).
how does one set up so rawr so that it shows the most optimal gearset for a certain spec?
There is an optimization tool for rawr though it has some problems and doesn't pretend to produce the best setup. In general it takes some common sense, some reading, and some playing around in rawr. I have yet to be able to find a setup for either arcane or ffb specs that produces higher dps than the ones currently listed as optimal. The difficulty arises from exactly what your saying, change one item and others change, and with as many item slots as we have the math problem could become very hard. Thankfully like I mentioned earlier there are many items that are so good they are "locked in" or the choices are between a slim few items and that is where the common sense part comes in and makes the process easier. An optimal set is by definition the setup that produces the highest dps in an average length fight under perfect conditions for a specific spec.
Main advantage of the setup is making quick upgrades in Ulduar without being tied to your 4 pc.
There's a flip side to the 2T7 gearing strategy, though. If you don't build a 4T7 gearset, you'll have a tougher time retaining the 2T7 bonus as you upgrade gear in Ulduar. With a 2T7 set, you'll have to retain those two pieces even if stronger gear drops for those slots. A 4T7 set will offer you more flexibility, especially since the 4T7 bonus by itself isn't that large a DPS gain.
If anything getting the T7 pieces is much easier than anything else on the list so I think its fair to say most everyone will have access to all 5 pieces of T7.
I have set a model on rawr 2.1.9 for 57.3.11 which is what I am running right now with all possible buffs and settings for a 25-man settings and I am getting the [Spellweave Gloves] as second best in slot ([Gloves of Token Respect] is the first).
Am I the only one getting this or is this correct? Feels that a the valorous gloves should be higher in there.
Other than that the model looks pretty similar to laekoth.
Short answer:
You're hit capped even without Valorous Gloves.
Long answer:
I get [Spellweave Gloves] as my top slot. This is because Sundial and Dying Curse are the same DPS for me while hit capped so I chose to equip Dying Curse and drop the extra hit elsewhere. Always remember to find items that are best in slot assuming you're NOT hit capped and then ARE hit capped. This will allow you to always carry your optimal set.
Now once I get Illustration of the Dragon Soul I'll replace my Dying Curse and Valorous Gloves will become best in slot again..
I’ve got a question regarding haste for Arcane (57/3/11).
What is the trade-off or relative weighting between Haste and SP?
In other words, is there a general rule of thumb or quick napkin math that we can do for gear pieces that have more haste, but less SP than currently equipped ones and vice versa?
I have found this to be the issue when switching from FFB to Arcane, for example when looking at switching Titanium Spellshock Ring (with Runed Scarlet Ruby) with Band of Channelled Magic, I gain 43 Haste but lose 8 SP and 42 Crit. (My other ring is the Band of Guile so it doesn’t make sense to switch that one out instead)
In situations like these, is the +43 Haste worth the loss of (8SP + 42Crit)? I know crit is less worthwhile than haste for Arcane, but it is not completely worthless either, so the decision sometimes isn't as straightforward as simply swapping out all crit gear for haste.
I’ve got a question regarding haste for Arcane (57/3/11).
What is the trade-off or relative weighting between Haste and SP?
In other words, is there a general rule of thumb or quick napkin math that we can do for gear pieces that have more haste, but less SP than currently equipped ones and vice versa?
I have found this to be the issue when switching from FFB to Arcane, for example when looking at switching Titanium Spellshock Ring (with Runed Scarlet Ruby) with Band of Channelled Magic, I gain 43 Haste but lose 8 SP and 42 Crit. (My other ring is the Band of Guile so it doesn’t make sense to switch that one out instead)
In situations like these, is the +43 Haste worth the loss of (8SP + 42Crit)? I know crit is less worthwhile than haste for Arcane, but it is not completely worthless either, so the decision sometimes isn't as straightforward as simply swapping out all crit gear for haste.
This may have been answered in this thread, maybe even a couple times so please do forgive me because I failed to notice it.
I was curious though if the lightweave embroider to cloak is a better choice than the + Haste for overall dps.
Im currently 20/51/0 raid spec and the lightweave just really does not seem to proc all that often.
Thanks for your time guys.
The short answer is, drop mining and tailoring and take enchanting and JC if you're serious about DPS. Lightweave only procs once every 45 seconds with a 50% proc rate. Lightweave and haste are very similar dps and either one can have the slight edge depending on spec/gear. Long term Haste is better because it scales in value.
One other suprise was that offhand [Matriarch's Spawn] was out ahead of [Surplus Limb] in almost every configuration I tried. Highest I can get is 5972 score with my best guess at raid buffs, and not being a JC.
[Valorous Frostfire Gloves] are hardly ideal for 57/3/11 Arcane (which has access to up to 6% hit from talents and scales poorly with crit compared to haste). The only reason I can think of for Rawr to be rating them as BiS is if you are short on hit, or it will nab you the 2-set or 4-set bonus. Personally, regardless of whether I input my current (rather crap) gear or my BiS wishlist, [Gloves of Token Respect] remains BiS.
With those BiS gloves and accounting for the hit cap rating, your competing against the 4 other Tier 7.5 slots that have better stats baseline. Those gloves after putting in 5pT7.5 are about a 20 dps increase (glovewise) compared to Sanctum's Flowing Vestments or Heigan's Putrid Vestments. I'm pretty sure several people will have the same 2 rings and the same 2 trinkets, same necklace, same cloak, same MH/OH, wand, and the same wrists. It comes down to the 5 tier pieces, waist, and feet.
I remember players during TBC stating the same concept about Leggings of Channeled Elements and how it was BiS until Leggings of Calamity. You have to pretend you have 4 pieces already and have the other slots filled increasing your hit enough to the point where you gauge which 5th piece is better, non-tier wise.
I really have to say though in my opinion optimally geared that Heigan's is about 11 dps higher than Sanctum's considering everything else is put in correctly (4pct7.5, Leash of Heedless Magic, Arcanic Tramplers, Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians, Illustration of the Dragon Soul, Embrace of the Spider,Pennant Cloak, Wyrmrest Necklace, Unsullied cuffs, The Turning Tide, Surplus Limb,) This is for an averaged 3 minute fight.
I switched out Dying Curse for Embrace and put in Sanctum's. I'm pretty sure if someone else comes up with a better point value system there may be another answer. Fading Glow replaced Gemmed Wand of nerubians.
After the day is over, everyone will be given different choices in gear, in terms of a JC/(insert other +37 SP prof) most of the blue gem slots will be filled by the greatest 1-set bonuses.
I did again check the Best Sets, one with 4 x T7,5 and the other with only 2 x T7,5.
Like we all know RAWR tells us that the 4 x T7,5 Set is doing the most DPS and is ~20-40 Dps in Front of the different 2 x T7,5 Set Variations. When i check Rawr the 4 x T7,5 Bonus itself is listed with ~69 Dps (18/53/0, Professions: Inscription and Jewelcrafting).
Then i calculated the Dps Difference between the 2 Sets.
Stat Values taken from Rawr
Spell Power 66 = + 104 DPS
Spell Hit -9 = - 20 DPS
Spell Crit 44 = + 54 DPS
Spell Haste -16 = - 20 DPS
DPS Difference = +118 DPS
So at the End the 2 x T7,5 Set has 118 Dps more as the 4 x T7,5 Set from Item Stats how can it be that Rawr is having the 4 x T7,5 Set with ~40 Dps in lead of the other Set when the 4 Bonus is giving only ~69 Dps???
:Edit:
I checked now both Spell Cycles to see maybe a Difference in there.
The 4pc bonus increases the dps value of the metagem as well so that could be the oversight you are making. Also make sure you are using 3x runed dragon's eyes in both setups.
[Valorous Frostfire Gloves] are hardly ideal for 57/3/11 Arcane (which has access to up to 6% hit from talents and scales poorly with crit compared to haste). The only reason I can think of for Rawr to be rating them as BiS is if you are short on hit, or it will nab you the 2-set or 4-set bonus. Personally, regardless of whether I input my current (rather crap) gear or my BiS wishlist, [Gloves of Token Respect] remains BiS.
It isn't BiS because Sanctume's Flowing Vestements are the best choice for which T7 slot to not use with 57/3/11.
I've been browsing this thread and I don't see my current gear setup which RAWR has optimal for FFB (53/18). Since I'm alliance and I have heroic presence I guess the gear set is slightly different. Mainly the optimization I see is instead of just swapping out [Bindings of the Expansive Mind] with [Unsullied Cuffs]. I use [Leash of Heedless Magic] and then swap 2 gems for [Veiled Monarch Topaz].
Also I'm not a JC (but you can sub out the purified opals with the runed dragon's eye.
I am in need of advices here. I am using an Arcane build 57/3/11 and used to have a frost fire build. by looking at my armory The World of Warcraft Armory you will notice it by my crit rating which was heavily influence by my FFB before.
According to Maxdps, both Heroes glove and Chest are listed below the Spellweave combo as far as DPS goes. I'd like to raise my haste raiting but don't know what to trade off in my equipment. Right now, i would loose 47 spellpower if i switch my chest for the spellweave one. I'd only loose 1 if i only trade the gloves. What would you guys do? Thank's for your help
I am in need of advices here. I am using an Arcane build 57/3/11 and used to have a frost fire build. by looking at my armory The World of Warcraft Armory you will notice it by my crit rating which was heavily influence by my FFB before.
According to Maxdps, both Heroes glove and Chest are listed below the Spellweave combo as far as DPS goes. I'd like to raise my haste raiting but don't know what to trade off in my equipment. Right now, i would loose 47 spellpower if i switch my chest for the spellweave one. I'd only loose 1 if i only trade the gloves. What would you guys do? Thank's for your help
Have you tried downloading RAWR and running the optimizer? You can put in all the gear that you have, and then it'll select which pieces to wear and what to gem/enchant it for the optimal DPS. You can get rawr from Rawr - Home
If you can't use RAWR or don't want to, then I have a few suggestions. Switching out your gloves would drop you below the hit rating required which would be a big loss in DPS, so I would probably go with swapping out the chest.
I would also recommend that you keep your runed scarlet rubies as your red sockets, and then move your dragon's eye to the other sockets. There's no reason to give up the 6 haste or 4 intellect socket or the +4 hit bonuses when you don't need to.
02/06/09, 4:34 PM
Lightweave only procs once every 45 seconds with a 50% proc rate. Lightweave and haste are very similar dps and either one can have the slight edge depending on spec/gear. Long term Haste is better because it scales in value.
