smit9352

Here is the setup (0/53/18) and I would like someone to point me into the right direction with these current items:
Optimal DPS Set w/o 4pc:

Head [Gothik's Cowl]
Neck [Cosmic Lights]
Shoulders [Valorous Frostfire Shoulderpads]
Chest [Heigan's Putrid Vestments]
Waist [Cincture of Polarity]
Legs [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]
Feet [Boots of Impetuous Ideals]
Wrist [Bindings of the Expansive Mind]
Hands [Valorous Frostfire Gloves]
Finger1 [Signet of the Kirin Tor]
Finger2 [Titanium Spellshock Ring]
Trinket1 [Sundial of the Exiled]
Trinket2 [Embrace of the Spider]
Back [Deathchill Cloak]
MainHand [Haunting Call]
OffHand [Ward of the Violet Citadel]
Ranged [Rod of the Fallen Monarch]

The World of Warcraft Armory
That's her typical raid gear setup.
I have a few items as upgrades/sidegrades that I think I could use but I'd rather ask you guys than assume I'm correct. With my current gear/spec I feel as if the 4pc bonus is not as beneficial as me wearing different gear which has given me far superior haste as well as hit, crit and haste.

I would like to hear from you as to what you feel my biggest upgrades would be? I've got [Gown of the Spell-Weaver], [Valorous Frostfire Robe], [Valorous Frostfire Leggings] and [Chain of the Ancient Wyrm]. Now I could put on the 4pc and drop my Heigan/Wonton items but I feel they are superior items compared to the frostfire set.

If anyone can help me it will be much appreciated!

 

Quirkie

I would generally just suggest you to download RAWR and do it yourself, but I went ahead and just plugged in your gear and ran the optimizer. With full raid buffs, (including heroic presence since you're alliance), it calculated the optimal set with the gear you have to be using the 4pc bonus.

With the buffs and everything calculated, this amounts to 5412.99 DPS.

Using your listed gear instead of the 4pc valorous, has you at 5340.88 DPS

Your biggest upgrades would be:
[Pennant Cloak] ~30dps
[Signet of Manifested Pain] ~50dps
[Illustration of the Dragon Soul] ~50dps
[The Turning Tide] ~150dps
[Surplus Limb] ~30dps

 

smit9352

Thanks Quirk,

I've looked at Rawr and ran it. But what I was typically wondering was should I consider the 4pc bonus over my misc. items that I currently have equipped? I've been doing multiple fights weekly just changing into the 4pc and not seeing a huge difference vs my current optimal (I feel) gear. Rawr is what I was using as well and when I optimize I see it points me to the 4pc bonus but I feel when I have it equipped overall my stats are lower, which I think the typical "lower_stats=lower_dmg" type of method of thinking .... but then again I did not consider the 4pc bonus at first.

I've ran multiple fights multiple times and see not so much larger numbers vs the set I have currently equipped.

 

Quirkie

Yeh you won't notice a big difference at all. You do have very good pieces. Gothik's Cowl, Wanton, and Heigan's are some of the best in slot items. I believe the optimal set that only uses 2 pieces of tier 7.5 is equal DPS to the optimal set that uses 4pc T7.5. (You remove your belt for leash of heedless magic since you're over the hit cap, etc...)

I mean my numbers for you went from like 5350 to 5400 which is only like a 1% dps increase. You won't really be able to notice that.

 

Enthorn

Spell Hit and Spirit are the culprits for the discrepancies between item choices. I mean, yes, I could list a multitude of possibilities for gear. It wouldn't be at all helpful, because anyone can fire up Rawr and get pretty close. As one person posted, you can make a few item switches and gem switches and be <10 DPS behind the 'best of the best' list of items. Why? The DPS increase is coming from your talent spec.

Consider a transition of gear I've recently gone through. From Heroes Frostfire Robe to Spell-Weaver Gown. From Enamored Cowl to Heroes Frostfire Circlet. Then replacing Frostfire Circlet with Gothik's Cowl, and reverting back to Heroes Frostfire Robe. And on top of that, I have Ring of the Fated and Signet of the Malevolent, and Rod of the Fallen Monarch and Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians switching back and forth, depending on whether or not I have a shadow priest on the run (which isn't always the case for 10-man runs).

And then I'll pick up Chain of the Ancient Wyrm the next 10-man Malygos run I'm on to further complicate matters. Trying to juggle all of this equipment around to find out what is the best combination... and after a while you end up asking, "Does it matter?" Probably not to such a fine degree.

So to answer your question smit9352, it probably doesn't actually matter if you run with 4-piece bonus or not. The difference is marginal, and if you think you're performing better without it (despite Rawr saying otherwise), than two things should be said:

(1) Anecdotal evidence isn't very useful, and it always amuses me when people take whatever item drops, followed by, "I'll try it out," as if they're going to try the item out for a run and see how it fits. It doesn't work that way. The item is either better or it isn't, and being able to 'see' that difference... there are so many variables at play, it's impossible to pinpoint performance being better or worse based on one item, especially for a spec like Frostfire.

(2) The differences clearly aren't noticeable and you've clearly stated you don't care what Rawr says, so I recommend using whatever items you think look best on your character.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as rude, as that's not my intention. Rather, I'm trying to point out that sometimes you are faced with choices that are so interchangeable, that it's almost counter-productive to break it all down. Sundial vs Embrace for Frostfire? The answer is: either one is better than Undying Curse.

 

smit9352

Not rude one bit! It kinda reassures me concerning my item choices and build. Tho you said the 10man malygos neck is what you're about to be using but I have it in my bag and I'm using Cosmic over it simply because well... I'm so overstacked on hit (my wep mainly) that once I change weapons I can then go back to the 10man (hopefully 25man by then) neck and be right where I want to be.

I somewhat agree with your statement of:
Reason I say somewhat is sometimes a certain gear combination is better and you won't always have that combo. I'm using heigans robe over gown of the spell-weaver simply because I feel more haste will benefit more than the crit but I could be wrong. Do you feel with my item build I should consider going with the fireball spec over the typical frostfire build?

Thanks for chatting with me about this, it's questions I "theorycraft" with other mages but sometimes they seem lost when I start talking purely numbers.

Thanks,

 

solbergb

I had to laugh at this a bit because I did in fact choose my current setup based on which robe looked better - I had two 4T7 appraoches that were a wash with respect to DPS, < 20dps different raidbuffed.

I did however arrive at that 20dps figure by working out how much dps a change in one point of spellpower was worth and working out similar values for hit, haste, crit and int (cause int gives crit. Whether you use RAWR or some other approach, you do need some kind of basis, because the relative values of things like 'is haste better than crit for me" depends on the rest of your gear AND your raid buffs. I have a ring situation now where unbuffed, one ring is better and raidbuffed, the other ring is better.

In terms of absolute upgrades, I find 4T7 to be significant enough that breaking the set will at best cause a "wash" in DPS, assuming you're getting it from Nax25 gear, but it won't be hard to break when more Ilevel 226+ items start coming out. In terms of "big enough to notice"...that takes more than one piece of gear once you are decked out in Ilevel 200+ stuff.

 

Quirkie

I saved your RAWR file so plugging in #'s and optimizer is pretty quick to pull. Instead of us guessing at what's better, let me just write what the program says... with your armory setup

Heigan's is > Spell Weaver but not because of the haste vs crit thing, but because of the 2 sockets Heigan has and you putting in the 32 SP gem.


For FFB spec, Crit > Haste. 10 pts of Crit = 13DPS, and 10pts of Haste = 11.8DPS

We had your FFB spec with optimized gear being around 5415DPS ...

If you want to play fireball spec (19/52/0) then your gear looks like ...

Your DPS looks like 5529 (more or less the same) and then you regem for some hit rating... which is getting you to be like 1.7% dps increase.

Anyhow, I have to agree with the previous posters though that if you don't want to use RAWR, then you're more or less going to choose/play what you 'feel' like doing so whatever feels right. I wouldn't bother regemming and respeccing for fireball since it's not much of a change.

If you are looking at optimal gear items that you're saving a loot turn for, the weapon, cloak, and ring are best items for any spec

 

Quirkie

Me too I chose to get the T7 robes over the helm because my 'set' would look complete. I almost chose helm over pants (since you can't see the pants), but that was too much of a DPS drop to do that...

 

Enthorn

This is something you're going to come across in your quest for better and better items (until nothing better can drop, naturally).

I'm getting close to all the ingredients for a great Frostfire set, but at the moment, I have so much hit gear, that I simply don't know (or care to find out) which is the best. Chain of the Ancient Wyrm, Signet of the Malevolent, Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians, Gown of the Spell-Weaver?

A few things you should keep in mind though. First, the malygos neck pieces are by and large the best neckpieces across the board. It's simply a matter of itemization. If you're not a Jewelcrafter, you'd be getting 30 hit, 37 haste, and 70 spell power (56+9+5). Cosmic Lights is giving you 37 crit, 41 haste, and 65 spell power. We'll assume, however, that your other blue gem was socketed onto your belt. So you're replacing the 9 spell power there with 19, for an additional 10 in favor of Chain.

Once you factor these things in, and Rawr will show this, it's better to select gear around having Chain of the Ancient Wyrm equipped over Cosmic Lights, if possible. And this is for the same reason that you want to gem for crit over hit. Essentially, you need a lot of items with small amounts of hit instead of a few items with tons of hit. That's why Gown of the Spell-Weaver and Undying Curse have simply too much spell hit. That's also why Heigan's Putrid Vestments is used instead of Gown of the Spell-Weaver for Fireball specs.

I mean, right now, Rawr is telling me that Gothik's Cowl+Gown of the Spell Weaver+Cosmic Lights is better than Heroes Frostfire Robe (which would give me 4-piece bonus) and Chain of the Ancient Wyrm, and I'm at 17.44% spell hit, with no hit gems.

If I equip Chain of the Ancient Wyrm, Heroes Frostfire Robe, and swapa gem, I go from 4887 DPS to 4881 DPS. A loss? Not really. Because once I pick up Valorous Frostfire Robe, I go up to 4916 DPS. That essentially translates into Chain of the Ancient Wyrm being better than Cosmic Lights. Everything really is about what's down the road. More or less.

Oh, and I should mention, Gown of the Spell-Weaver is the first chestpiece I've found that doesn't match with [Tabard of the Achiever]. And for that matter, whatever shirt you're wearing also shows through on the edges.

 

Quirkie

What I did when we first started raiding and I found out about RAWR was go through and check every WOTLK spell caster item in the game. Then I chose my spec/buffs etc and hit optimize :P So that gave me my ideal set to aim for and I was able then figure out what alternatives are out there. It makes life so much easier to just use RAWR and not try to guess around. Once Ulduar comes out I'd recommend just clicking all the Ulduar items and then hit GO!

I still haven't figured out how to use the upgrade list properly yet on RAWR, for some reason it bugs out on me here and there and then I gave up on it and just use the optimizer for everything.

 

Jasher

Enthorn, I was wondering if it were at all possible for you to provide us with an optimal Arcane setup on the front page as well. Currently rockin the 57/3/11 build. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[Valorous Frostfire Circlet]
[Wyrmrest Necklace of Power]
[Valorous Frostfire Shoulderpads]
[Pennant Cloak]
[The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments]
[Unsullied Cuffs]
[Valorous Frostfire Gloves]
[Leash of Heedless Magic]
[Valorous Frostfire Leggings]
[Boots of Impetuous Ideals]
[Signet of Manifested Pain]
[Band of Channeled Magic]
[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
[Embrace of the Spider]
[The Turning Tide]
[Surplus Limb]
[Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians]

I may be off with some of the pieces but feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

Enthorn

I would love to, however, I've never played Arcane, and I only briefly know the rotations and general desired stats. I haven't extensively tried to set it up in Rawr (though I downloaded 2.2 last night and I will update the main page later on for Frostfire/Fireball). In short though, I think Many's Arcane thread is going to far better answer questions regarding gear than I could provide. There are a number of Arcane set lists scattered around here as well, with each one offering different perspectives (mana vs DPS, largely).

What I don't want to do is post what I speculate to be 'the best.' With Fireball/Frostfire, I at least know what I'm doing when I'm swapping items/gems and keeping track of the buffs/rotations that it's calculating. I'll see what I can do though for Arcane. Currently, there's a bug that is crashing Rawr when you turn on integral mana segments and some other option. If you have the computation limit set to 300 (default) it will tell you to increase the limit to complete the rotation calculation, but when you close the error message, it just opens up again.

As such, I can't calculate the 'optimal arcane cycles.'

 

Jasher

+Dmg > Haste > Crit 17% hit cap on bosses

Professions: JC/Enchanting

Rotation would be AB AB AB AM. Apparently that works out to be the easiest and most reliable rotation according to the Fusion Arcane Mage website ArcaneMage - StratFu.

The optimal and most realistic rotation in a min/max situation however may very well be AB AB AB MBAM if MB proc'd, otherwise ABarr.

Manly's Arcane spreadsheet shows these results comparing the two.

AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr)
5132.355 dps 190.8791 mps 26.89 dpm
AB AB AB AM
5070.111 dps 157.7089 mps 32.15 dpm

Optimal Glyphs

* [Glyph of Arcane Blast]
* [Glyph of Arcane Missiles]
* [Glyph of Molten Armor]/[Glyph of Mage Armor]

It has also been outlined on Fusion's page, that according to Vontre's MageGraf simulation tool it shows a decreasing gap between Molten and Mage armor. Right now Molten is only 50 dps ahead of mage armor so I took the liberty to list both as optimal.

Presence of Mind
optimal use: last AB of any rotation

Consumables/Cooldowns:
[Firecracker Salmon],[Mana Sapphire],[Potion of Speed] apparently Potion of Speed = 431 DPS; Potion of Wild Magic = 333.67 DPS for an Arcane Mage, Icy Veins, Bloodlust/Heroism, Arcane Power, Evocation on every cooldown.

If you need any more information I wouldn't mind digging further. I would love to see all the specs optimal gear sets consolidated into one thread. If anyone else would like to add or correct any of the information above I would greatly appreciate it. Keep up the good work.

 

ronoridius1

I was wondering should I buy [Cuffs of the Shadow Ascendant] Cuffs of the Shadow Ascendant to replace my [Bands of Impurity] Bands of Impurity ?

Is the 60 Emblem of Valor Bracer the 2nd Best Bracer for Arcane Mages?

Stat Change

Valor bracer: +38 Haste

Impurity Bands: +8-9 Spell Damage, 34 Crit Rating

So too just take a bare look at it, which is better? 38 Haste or 8-9 Spell Damage + 34 Crit Rating.

 

Gravenimage

Yes, though Punctilious Bindings are a virtual tie with it (maybe a DPS or two behind).

 

akimsko

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but that is infact the exact same setup I came to with a 57/3/11 build. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything that could beat it, by any meaningfull amount. However, it's a fairly hard set to obtain, as it includes a fair bit of the more "exoctic" items.

 

sursisyor

First of all I apologise for not providing a Rawr output, but I am sure there are those on the forum more experienced in doing this if there is any substance to my feedback.

The suggested optimal Arcane set (post #50 by Korrigan) uses an arcane spec with 3 points in focus (is anyone actually playing that?). I am Horde and using the prefered spec with 4 points in Stabilty, 1 subtlety, 2 focus, as recommended by Manly. I am left considerably (24 points) under the hit cap, and the suggested set works relatively poorly in my comparisons.

The highest dps set I can find for Horde and this spec makes the following changes :

Boots of Impetuous Ideals -> Arctic Tramplers
Embrace of the Spider -> Dying Curse

If someone more experienced with Rawr could confirm or refute my findings, I'd appreciate it.

Regards,
Sursisyor

 

Quirkie

With heroic presence, I have [Fading Glow] over [Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians].
Without heroic presence, then I have [Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians]

So losing another hit%, say we only do 2 pts in Arcane Focus (and no heroic presence), I have using [Fading Glow] and [Heigan's Putrid Vestments]

Losing another hit% (1pt Arcane Focus and no heroic presence), I have using [Gemmed Wand of the Nerubians] and [Heigan's Putrid Vestments]

 

Pheroz

Right now, every gear makeup assumes that we are enchanting out boots with Icewalker for 12 hit and 12 crit. Theres no discussion, no comparison, that is the boot enchant everyone is using.

A large part of this is becuase Unholy Aura is so prevalent. As the only only relevant boot enchant besides Icewalker is Tuskarrs Vitality (15 stam, +speed), and the DK aura provides the +speed, theres little discussion. Well, with 3.1 coming, Unholy Aura is going the way of the dinosaurs, and the only way to get +speed will be from the boot enchant.

I was wondering if anyone has done any math trying to figure out how much movement a fight requires before The Tuskarr's vitality enchant surpasses the Icewalker enchant? Might be highly useful for figuring out gear coming into Ulduar.

 

Trepid

Frostfire question....

Regarding the 4 peice set bonus (5% bonus damage on crits)

I have been looking into a few items that rank as higher dps than the respective Valorous peices, however I'm unsure whether or not to use them as it'd mean losing the 4 peice set bonus.

I currently use [Gothik's Cowl] along with 4 peice Valorious.

The two slots I am considering are:

Chest:

[Gown of the Spell-Weaver]
or
[Heigan's Putrid Vestments]
in place of
[Valorous Frostfire Robe]


Legs:

[Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster]
in place of
[Valorous Frostfire Leggings]


I was wondering what people thought of this.

Thanks.

 

Quirkie

If you keep read this thread from the beginning or even just a few pages, this question has been answered. The most optimal set consists of Gothik's Helm with 4 PC T7.5. I mean if you're struggling with hit because lack of wand, boots, bracers, then maybe swapping an item will result in slightly higher dps.

I'd just download RAWR and use the optimizer with the gear you have.

 

Roywyn

Right, let's do some napkin math with numbers from Rawr. 10 crit ~ 13 DPS for FFB specs, and Icewalker is 24 crit at most (since you'd juggle hit and at most gain 12 crit for 12 hit from regemming). So Icewalker is roughly ~31 DPS if you can use the excess hit for something. At 5380 DPS from Rawr, that's a 0.58% DPS increase.

Run speed is a tad trickier. It's 8% run speed increase, which means a 7.4% reduction in run time. So, run speed increases DPS by Runtime%*7.4% while Icewalker increases DPS by (1-Runtime%)*0.58%.

Solving that, Run Speed beats Icewalker if Runtime% > 7.3%, that's spending 4.4 seconds running every minute. If you can't use the 12 hit from Icewalker at all, this drops down to 2.2 seconds running every minute. This also doesn't account for being able to run away faster from fire, ice, voids which can allow you to avoid knockback, silences, etc. altogether. Or squeeze in extra spells into Heigan's Dancing.

[E] Junlex's argument could actually go both ways, if you're not better timing/executing small runs without an enchant than with one. It does remind me of the old " You need at least 50/80/100 haste rating because you can't feel the difference." argument.

But it is a very good point. If you're executing really well right now, you need to get a good feeling and practice to make the full use of the extra speed and get your reflexes adjusted.

On a totally different note, there is also Blink to consider. It doesn't matter for the calculations, but it can reduce your need to run significantly. A good strategy of where and how often to run has a vastly larger impact on your performance than any enchant will ever have.


TL;DR Rule of thumb - Run Speed enchants are better if you spend at least 4 seconds per minute running.
Judging from PTR testing and previous raids, most likely what you'll want to use in Ulduar and beyond.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Junlex

One thing to bear in mind though - icewalker doesn't have diminished worth due to user error, whereas the run speed enchant does. The shorter the movement periods involved, the higher the margin for player error, latency misrepresenting the picture, meaning it's somewhat harder to get the most out of the 8% faster running. ie, if on a theoretical fight you had to run 100 yards in one go before you could resume DPS, 8% run speed would be clearly very valuable, but in most fights where it tends to be a case of running 10-15 yards, DPSing for a bit, running again, it's more difficult to be precise enough to get the most value out of the enchant.

This of course doesn't change the fact that if the player is playing close to perfectly then what Roywyn said holds true.

 

Thegoodman

Great analysis Roywyn, it's great to know that they are at least comparable.

One thing that is important is that running does not necessarily mean you are going anywhere. I've read of at least 1 fight in Ulduar that is similar to the last boss of Nexus, where moving is the necessity, not necessarily the destination. I know this is an oddity but it combined with Blink might let someone choose Icewalker.