Originally Posted by Sinless
The new cloak enchant for tailoring is about +50 dmg over the typical haste enchant for cloak making it better than enchanting and most other professions (JC, too, when better gems are available via raiding).
So I saw this post on another thread and it left me speechless. Would anyone care to elaborate on this alleged buff to Tailoring?
Could it be true? Is JC/Tailoring now a viable option for min/maxing my dps with the new cloak enchants?
As I said in the Shadow Priest thread, you can't do a simple comparison between the tailoring proc effect and static bonuses like JC/Enchanting. Most fights have some movement requirement (void zones, flame walls, blizzards etc) and if you have to move while the proc is up you lost a lot more than you do from the "always on" benefits of other professions. Patchwerk-style min-maxing just doesn't seem very accurate if the Ulduar fight previews are anything to go by.
Originally Posted by Heenk
"IRONBRANCH, THE FLOWER BED IS IN DANGER! ASSIST ME!"
So I saw this post on another thread and it left me speechless. Would anyone care to elaborate on this alleged buff to Tailoring?
Could it be true? Is JC/Tailoring now a viable option for min/maxing my dps with the new cloak enchants?
Please Discuss.
Copy pasta from a post I made on my guild forums:
Benefit to caster (post patch 3.1) is the lightweave embroidery which will give the caster a chance to increase spellpower by 250 for 15 seconds when casting a spell.
Assuming this is like the current lightweave embroidery, there will be about a 50% chance to proc with a 45 second internal cooldown. Since there is a chance that the effect will fade before you finish casting a spell, I will assume that on average you will miss about 1 second of the effect. To calculate the time that it will take to proc on average once the cooldown is up, I will also assume a 2.25 second cast.
2.25 * 1.5 = 3.4 seconds average to proc when available
250 sp * 15 seconds / (45 + 3.4) seconds = 77.5 sp
Overall benefit to caster = around 77.5 sp
Overall loss to caster = 23 haste (since the embroidery doesn't stack with the haste cloak enchant)
As I mentioned there, I'll mention here: I'm a comm major, not a math major, so check my math, but unless I'm mistaken, that should reflect it's benefit reasonably.
Translating this for my character, I get about 1.31 dps from each point of sp and 1.22 dps per point of haste (numbers from Rawr in a situation where I have optimal buffs). Using these values:
1.31 dps per point of sp * 77.5 sp = 101.5dps gained
1.22 dps per point of haste * 23 haste = 28.1 dps lost
Net gain = 101.5 - 28.1 = 73.4 dps gain overall
Comparing this to JC for my character:
The Dragon's Eyes gems replace a purple and two orange gems. I also get the socket bonus from my chest piece (6 haste).
3 * 32 sp from Dragon's Eyes = 96 sp
+ 6 haste from socket bonus met
3 * 9 sp (9 sp from the two orange and 1 purple gem each) = 27 sp
2 * 8 haste (from 2 orange reckless gems) = 16 haste
Net gain in sp = 96 - 27 = 69 sp
Net loss in haste = 6 - 16 = -10 haste
69 sp * 1.31 dps per point in sp = 90.4 dps
10 haste * 1.22 dps per point in haste = 12.2 dps
Net gain in dps = 90.4 - 12.2 = 78.2 dps
TL;DR: I get more dps from JC than the tailoring cloak as it stands right now. I've heard a lot of talk about new gems, but so far all I've seen is the data mined shots of a gem that is unique which wouldn't affect JC at all.
*edit* forgot I was able to swap in a red gem for a purple gem in my extra belt socket which nets an additional 10 sp (10sp * 1.31 dps per sp = 13.1 dps). The total gain in dps for JC with this adjustment is 91.3 instead of 78.2.
TL;DR Rule of thumb - Run Speed enchants are better if you spend at least 4 seconds per minute running.
Judging from PTR testing and previous raids, most likely what you'll want to use in Ulduar and beyond.
Also rememeber if you're still casting while you run (Abar/HS Pyro/LB/even Fireblast) then you're losing no (or less) damage then if you're running w/o casting.
Also rememeber if you're still casting while you run (Abar/HS Pyro/LB/even Fireblast) then you're losing no (or less) damage then if you're running w/o casting.
I'm curious why people model running as a chance to lose proctime. It could as well work in your favour. If you're moving when the proc is on CD, you're actually gaining dps than if you're moving with a static enchant on.
Here's a another way to explain it. Say you have to move 5 seconds every minute. (random number). You could lose 5 seconds of the proc once in a while. But you could also very well only move when it's on CD and cannot proc. If you had a 23 haste on your cloak instead, you would allways lose the small dps it brings whenever you're moving those 5 seconds.
So to put it simple, don't model moving as a negative thing for the proc, it would very well work in your favour as well, when comparing to the 23 haste enchant. It might be a bit more random than the 23 haste, but it averages out to exactly the same % lost over time.
While we're on Lightweave I'd like to question its effectiveness in terms of cooldown stacking.
I imagine a situation at the start of a fight where my Sundial of the exiled, dieing curse, and lightweave all proc together. On top of this I throw Icy veins and a mana gem set bonus and combustion. If this situation ends up fairly common what then is the relative worth of engineering to throw a rocket-gloves effect onto the cooldown-stack?
The proc rates on all of the above are either reliable or controlled, so if it becomes easy to stack then does the synergistic stacking effect of engineering + tailoring add any sufficient weight or value to the combination to make it comparable to the 'flat benefit' professions?
I'm curious why people model running as a chance to lose proctime. It could as well work in your favour. If you're moving when the proc is on CD, you're actually gaining dps than if you're moving with a static enchant on.
Here's a another way to explain it. Say you have to move 5 seconds every minute. (random number). You could lose 5 seconds of the proc once in a while. But you could also very well only move when it's on CD and cannot proc. If you had a 23 haste on your cloak instead, you would allways lose the small dps it brings whenever you're moving those 5 seconds.
So to put it simple, don't model moving as a negative thing for the proc, it would very well work in your favour as well, when comparing to the 23 haste enchant. It might be a bit more random than the 23 haste, but it averages out to exactly the same % lost over time.
Well, that is a good point, but something to consider which lessens the value of this is that most heavy dps burns, whether it be for the full duration of a boss fight (Patchwerk) or simply during a phase (Tenebron on Sarth +3) take place with relatively little movement. While this could be enough to make the overall dps a bit higher, the dps gain is still RNG dependant. Personally, if I know two changes will both each give me a relatively equal dps gain, I'll go for the static dps gain over a chance on proc gain any day.
Either way, from a pure min/max perspective, it currently looks as though tailor/JC will be the biggest dps gain unless something changes. If you've only room to pick up one (and thus are settling for less than a pure min/max), then the difference in dps gain is pretty slight and other factors such as profitability, ease of leveling, etc. should be taken into account as the deciding factors.
My post from pre-nerf/bugfix updated to 2.1.9. There has been some arguing about it, but nobody has posted any "rawr-proven" suggestions
...
Spell Stats
Crit Rate: 350 - 51,92%
Hit Rate: 195 - 14,43%
Haste: 645 (/32,789 = 19,67%)
Casting Speed: 1,373
Spell Power: 3048,2
DPS: 6221,90
...
Using 2.1.9, the listed buffs and listed gear, I ended with the above numbers. What could be throwing things off? Perhaps there was an update to the mage module that corrected something? I am as certain as I can be that I set everything the same way you listed. Almost a 200 dps difference.
Using 2.1.9, the listed buffs and listed gear, I ended with the above numbers. What could be throwing things off? Perhaps there was an update to the mage module that corrected something? I am as certain as I can be that I set everything the same way you listed. Almost a 200 dps difference.
Without seeing you rawr xml files, best guesses:
You are using Gemmed Wand and he is using Fading Glow (Accounts for hit and haste differences)
I couldnt decide whether this fit better in the 3.1 changes thread or here so sorry if I guessed wrong ...
There is a trinket that drops of the General Vezax (hard mode) 25-man encounter on the PTR:
Flare of the Heavens: 95 Crit, Chance on periodic dmg to do 788 to 1312 dmg.
So.. this is basically the Extract of Necromantic Power.... when I look at it I have 2 thoughts... 1) It has placeholder stats or 2) theyre going to introduce similar trinkets to Naxx but with higher proc rates and lower internal CDs.
Not sure if enough people on the PTR have these yet that someone could confirm whether its 1) or 2).
There is a trinket that drops of the General Vezax (hard mode) 25-man encounter on the PTR:
1) It has placeholder stats or [...]
Take a look at the other trinkets and relics floating around on wowhead/mmo-champ. Same stats as previous items, they're pretty obvious placeholders. Armour pieces also have placeholder graphics. Hopefully, there'll be another round of polish on caster gear stats too - the plate gear is spammed with +hit, so there's still hope for a general gear revision!
I very much doubt that they'll add proc items with different proc chances or cooldowns. 10% proc and 45s ICD has become the de-facto standard, making it not too difficult to compare items. If they messed with that again, it would become a new mess, to say the least.
So the 'optimal' arcane gear now uses the 4/5 Arcane Stability spec? Is it better to spec this way in the long run?
Just curious because I think I hit all BIS arcane gear last night, but I keep seeing you guys list Boots of Impetuous Ideals in your gear makeups.
Note that most of the quoted optimal sets assume that you are Horde which needs another 26 points of hit. That's why Boots of Impetuous Ideals are often recommended.
I've spent a bit of time recently playing around with gear for Fireball specs that don't use the 4 piece, and have found this set to come out as ~8 dps higher than what I had previously thought to be the optimal set (using the 4 piece). Any input would be greatly appreciated as to whether it would be worth gearing like this, with regards to the possible spirit change (SP/haste from spirit please!) and such things as the 4 piece scaling with offset Ulduar gear.
Rawr 2.1.9
Buffs and settings were mimiced from the first post with the exceptions of including Heroic Presence, as I am Alliance, and including Mixology as I'm an alchemist.
I won't be updating the main page until 3.1 hits live servers. The items listed have consistently shown to be best in slot when taken into proper consideration (other gear, consumables, raid buffs), throughout various releases of Rawr (from 2.6 to 2.2). Furthermore, there are so many variants of sets that are close, it's not worth reflecting them all. The number of things that could be causing one person to get higher (or lower) numbers than another person is daunting, especially when it's within a range of 5-10 DPS.
I've done my best to use one of the most accurate tools available and provide the results for others. I'll do the same with 3.1, when final mage changes are in. At that time, I suspect Rawr will be updated, and there will be many more items to take into consideration as well.
One of the interesting aspects I'm looking forward to is sorting out previously unused items. For instance, if a chest piece from Ulduar is a substantial DPS increase, enough so to lose 4-piece set bonus (excluding T8 set bonus), then an item like [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] would clearly be superior to [Valorous Frostfire Leggings]. Although the goal of this thread (but more realistically, the goal of the first post) is to answer the question, "Is item A better than item B?" under "best of best" terms, that doesn't mean discussion of transition items cannot take place.
With this amount of hit and the 3% from your shadowpriest/moonkin and the 1% from the draenei aura, you are at least 4% over the hit cap. I doubt that this would be a optimal equipment.
If you check a bit more about hit rates, then he's saying that his hit WITH all those buffs is just under 17%, as a FB mage needs 341 to be hit capped.
He is, with 337 hit, 4 under the hit cap.
Also, I agree that it's too easy to mess around with the gear to make a set that is optimal for you, and to be honest, with the upcoming changes that we have on the way, and the possibilty of talents and Spi being useful (though probably not in a direct conversion to SP as GC mentioned today) the BiS gear will only be BiS for the next few weeks maximum, and possibly not even that depending on the date of 3.1.
I have yet to see anyone propose this idea, but I am willing to give it a try. RAWR does not have the glyph of arcane missles in its arsenal of mage glyphs. Therefore, I have no data to "prove" my idea, but bare with me. Looking at your general fight, lets say a five minute fight for example. Could we not agree that an extra nine seconds of 20% increased damage (4-5 arcane blasts) at a cost of 20% increased mana each is less valueable than 25% increased Amissle crit damage across the board? When I get my 4k crits on amissle (which happen quite frequently, and sometimes happen on all 5 missles) I tend to think "Wow, I am getting an extra 500-1000 damage per missle" I know you guys hate ideas that can't be rawr proven on here, someone give me some feedback?
Last edited by MikeStango : 03/16/09 at 4:15 PM.
Reason: Spelling
I have yet to see anyone propose this idea, but I am willing to give it a try. RAWR does not have the glyph of arcane missles in its arsenal of mage glyphs. Therefore, I have no data to "prove" my idea, but bare with me. Looking at your general fight, lets say a five minute fight for example. Could we not agree that an extra nine seconds of 20% increased damage (4-5 arcane blasts) at a cost of 20% increased mana each is less valueable than 25% increased Amissle crit damage across the board? When I get my 4k crits on amissle (which happen quite frequently, and sometimes happen on all 5 missles) I tend to think "Wow, I am getting an extra 500-1000 damage per missle" I know you guys hate ideas that can't be rawr proven on here, someone give me some feedback?
If you check the arcane thread, the recommended glyphs are AB, AM and an armor glyph. Also, the AM glyph is present in rawr 2.2b3(haven't downloaded the latest beta, but I can only assume that it hasn't been removed).
I've been messing around with Rawr to polish up my gear choices and gems, but have a question. Does RAWR take into account partial resists?
I ask this because I've been noticing some significant partial resists on my Fireballs. 500-1100 dmg resisted on KT, for example. Our locks dont buff CoE because of Ebon Plaguebringer. This raises my question, when gemming a blue gem, should I opt for a 9 dmg +spell pen? Or even a full spell pen blue gem?
Look at the percentage resisted over the whole fight duration. If it's typically under 5%, then it's just partial resists that you can not eliminate with spell penetration. At least that's what everyone says and I'm sure it has been tested. It would be nice if that little bit of resistance could be penetrated and as you said, there's a blue gem that could do the job. I'm sure a lot of mages would instantly trade stamina to spell penetration on those two gems, if it actually did anything useful. As far as I know, it doesn't.
I finally got around to spending some time with v2.2.0b5, specifically looking at 18.53.0 (Fireball). I decided that since Rawr isn't including the updated changes to Molten Armor (GC's speculated .35 conversion versus the current .25), and the changes to both Glyph of Scorch (applies 5 stacks versus current 3 stacks) and the Scorch talent (3% crit to Scorch/Fireball/Frostfire Bolt), I opted to just run it with Glyph of Living Bomb and remove Scorch from rotation (instead checking Imp. Shadowbolt for the 5% crit).
DPS went from 6255 to ~6107 when all was said and done. One of the possible reasons for it being trivial to look at the item switches is that items in Ulduar almost force spirit on the item. And yet, due to the additional spell power, and spirit conversion, it's likely that very few items will still be contendors, if any.
I suppose if you wanted to truly maximize your DPS before heading into Ulduar, then yes, it's somewhat interesting to see what Rawr lists as being better, because when you take the same gear and apply the 3.1 changes, your DPS actually drops 200-300 due to a combination of factors (lack of spirit on gear being one of them). Note also that I didn't mess with the duration of the fight. It's still set to 5 minutes, and I realize that 10 minutes may be more accurate.
Right off the bat, however, Rawr will actually suggest replacing [Signet of the Kirin Tor] with [Band of Channeled Magic]. Also, there are a number of gem switches, and due to the 3.1 changes to Lightweave Embroidery not being implemented yet, I kept the professions as Jewelcrafting and Enchanting.
The point of your post appeared to be to say "this pre-Ulduar set is better in 3.1 than what is best in 3.0.9", which is not true since the Inscribed Signet is something you can get before heading into Ulduar for the first time. None of the items you listed are obtainable without already having killed Ulduar bosses, so they do not match the criteria of being a pre-Ulduar 3.1 set.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
03/04/09, 6:58 PM
