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Old 02/26/09, 10:20 AM   #1501
epoh
Piston Honda
 
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Human Mage
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Excalibur_Z View Post
Are you sure the misses were yours? I've noticed my Mirror Images miss occasionally in raids (which will generate a yellow Miss message, appearing identical to if you had missed). They appear not to inherit +hit talents, so that may explain it.
They do inherit your +hit, however, they only cast frost or fire spells, which means they are going to be missing 3% hit. I also assume based on my own WWS that they do not benefit from Heroic Presence.

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Old 02/26/09, 12:37 PM   #1502
manly
Soda Popinski
 
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Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
You could take the spreadsheet on the ffb thread first post, and plug your values. It would tell you right away a rough idea of whether or not AB spam is good dps.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 02/26/09, 4:28 PM   #1503
Excalibur_Z
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Mage
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by epoh View Post
They do inherit your +hit, however, they only cast frost or fire spells, which means they are going to be missing 3% hit. I also assume based on my own WWS that they do not benefit from Heroic Presence.
That doesn't seem to fit. I have 11.89% hit from gear, 3/3 AF, 3/3 EP. That means with a Spriest or Moonkin (which my raid always has) I'd have 20.89% hit. If Mirror Images inherit +hit talents but cast only Frostbolt/Fire Blast, they should still be over the hit cap at 17.89% hit, but they still occasionally miss. Either they're not getting +hit talents or they're not getting +hit from my gear.

From a WWS parse of Patchwerk on Tuesday (thereby eliminating any possibility that the spriest or moonkin may have died): Wow Web Stats

My Mirror Images missed 1 out of 36 Frostbolts and 1 out of 20 Fire Blasts.

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Old 02/26/09, 5:01 PM   #1504
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Excalibur_Z View Post
Mirror Images [...]'re not getting +hit talents.
This. They get your +hit from gear and from raid debuffs, but not from buffs (Draenei Aura) or talents.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 02/27/09, 11:11 AM   #1505
bombdigie
Banned
 
Human Mage
 
Cenarius
Looking at the hit points of bosses in Ulduar, it seems like fights are going to get much longer, which would make mage armor more benefitial, however there will likely be times when you don't need extra mana regen and molten armor would be more benefitial.

Even though Molten Armor glyph provides the best DPS, I am not convinced going forward into the future that it is going to be the most benefitial glyph if you are constantly changing armors.

This leads me to believe that Arcane Power Glyph is the best of both worlds, allows you to choose which type of armor without sacrificing your glyph.

Of course the super hardcore will probably dual spec two arcane builds, which might not be such a bad idea as well, glyphing mage armor and not getting meditation, allowing for full protection on your casts and channels due to pushback.

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Old 02/27/09, 12:23 PM   #1506
Solisa
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Mage
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by bombdigie View Post
Looking at the hit points of bosses in Ulduar, it seems like fights are going to get much longer, which would make mage armor more benefitial, however there will likely be times when you don't need extra mana regen and molten armor would be more benefitial.

Even though Molten Armor glyph provides the best DPS, I am not convinced going forward into the future that it is going to be the most benefitial glyph if you are constantly changing armors.

This leads me to believe that Arcane Power Glyph is the best of both worlds, allows you to choose which type of armor without sacrificing your glyph.

Of course the super hardcore will probably dual spec two arcane builds, which might not be such a bad idea as well, glyphing mage armor and not getting meditation, allowing for full protection on your casts and channels due to pushback.
You're speaking of arcane as if it has a constantly declining mana pool, which isn't really true. Whether you'll need mage armor isn't really directly relevant to the fight as if you can last two minutes, you can last the entire fight. Most of the TC at this point suggests that you'd be better off switching to ABx 2 AM for the majority of the fight and running molten than running mage and using a bit more ABx3. The only time that mana gets better as the fight gets shorter is if you can go without any evocate at all, which, as you said, certainly won't be the case based on current boss HPs in Ulduar. Not to mention at the moment it's unsure if mage armor glyph will be changed or what, because currently meditation+mage armor is 100% regen right off the bat.

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Old 02/27/09, 12:34 PM   #1507
Gravenimage
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Solisa View Post
You're speaking of arcane as if it has a constantly declining mana pool, which isn't really true. Whether you'll need mage armor isn't really directly relevant to the fight as if you can last two minutes, you can last the entire fight. Most of the TC at this point suggests that you'd be better off switching to ABx 2 AM for the majority of the fight and running molten than running mage and using a bit more ABx3. The only time that mana gets better as the fight gets shorter is if you can go without any evocate at all, which, as you said, certainly won't be the case based on current boss HPs in Ulduar. Not to mention at the moment it's unsure if mage armor glyph will be changed or what, because currently meditation+mage armor is 100% regen right off the bat.
That's the point. As you said, if you can last two minutes, you can last forever. It makes more sense to settle for a lower DPS rotation on occasion than it does to give up 5% crit.

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Old 02/27/09, 1:12 PM   #1508
manly
Soda Popinski
 
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Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Gravenimage View Post
That's the point. As you said, if you can last two minutes, you can last forever. It makes more sense to settle for a lower DPS rotation on occasion than it does to give up 5% crit.
For as long as DPM tradeoffs remain as low as they are now, this situation is unlikely to change. Given the current direction of arcane I doubt that DPM tradeoffs will vary a lot in the future.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 02/27/09, 1:20 PM   #1509
bombdigie
Banned
 
Human Mage
 
Cenarius
Originally Posted by manly View Post
For as long as DPM tradeoffs remain as low as they are now, this situation is unlikely to change. Given the current direction of arcane I doubt that DPM tradeoffs will vary a lot in the future.
Does this type of scenario put fireball closer to arcane or even ahead?

If it is close is it also safe to assume that the gear upgrades which favor fireball scaling vs. arcane scaling will put fireball over the top for good?

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Old 02/27/09, 1:31 PM   #1510
manly
Soda Popinski
 
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Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by bombdigie View Post
Does this type of scenario put fireball closer to arcane or even ahead?

If it is close is it also safe to assume that the gear upgrades which favor fireball scaling vs. arcane scaling will put fireball over the top for good?
Spell scaling is just one part of the story. We don't know how the fights work in Ulduar, so the 'viability' (and let me say it pains me to use the term because its soo easy to misinterpret) of any spec is impossible to determine. What we can conclude logically is that a spec that can best adapt to any scenario is guaranteed to have the edge assuming identical dps from both specs. Point being, I believe it is naive to only look at scaling and make conclusions from there.

Furthermore, even if one spec scales better on one given stat, we don't know what the gear will look like in Ulduar. Like it or not, even if the scaling was such that, for example, you were getting uber crazy dps from crit rating, if the gear from Ulduar is low on crit well then you're just shit out of luck. Its simply outside of your control.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 02/27/09, 1:47 PM   #1511
Gravenimage
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by manly View Post
Spell scaling is just one part of the story. We don't know how the fights work in Ulduar, so the 'viability' (and let me say it pains me to use the term because its soo easy to misinterpret) of any spec is impossible to determine. What we can conclude logically is that a spec that can best adapt to any scenario is guaranteed to have the edge assuming identical dps from both specs. Point being, I believe it is naive to only look at scaling and make conclusions from there.

Furthermore, even if one spec scales better on one given stat, we don't know what the gear will look like in Ulduar. Like it or not, even if the scaling was such that, for example, you were getting uber crazy dps from crit rating, if the gear from Ulduar is low on crit well then you're just shit out of luck. Its simply outside of your control.
I think you can predict more than you're willing to admit though. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume the scaling will reflect 200->213->226 rather than some drastic new path? In a void, you're correct, but we have years worth of information to draw conclusions from. An educated guess would suggest that a mage in Ulduar gear will perform better with a Fire spec than an Arcane spec. Is it possible that the assumption is wrong? Of course (and I hope it is), but it seems silly to claim that it's impossible to predict.

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Old 02/27/09, 2:33 PM   #1512
Phatpharm
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Bloodscalp
Originally Posted by Gravenimage View Post
I think you can predict more than you're willing to admit though. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume the scaling will reflect 200->213->226 rather than some drastic new path? In a void, you're correct, but we have years worth of information to draw conclusions from. An educated guess would suggest that a mage in Ulduar gear will perform better with a Fire spec than an Arcane spec. Is it possible that the assumption is wrong? Of course (and I hope it is), but it seems silly to claim that it's impossible to predict.
It is predictable in a sense.

Any item with spirit will have two main stats. One spellpower the other Crit/Hit/Haste/MP5

Almost every top-tier item will have three stats, exception is listed above.

There were a few other exceptions, like the Wanton pants, that stacked more spellpower. Itemization used to be that you could shop around and focus on one or two areas. The homogenizing of gear has almost destroyed our ability to do that anymore.

There is a distinct "budget" for every item, some seem a hair low, and some seem over. Anything with sockets seemed to be budgeted with the average available gem, and could easily become better than the same iLevel gear with zero sockets.

With all of the new trends, we have to dismiss any budgeting mechanisms from tBC or earlier.

Since arcane has one of the lowest +hit requirements, it will indeed have a harder time trying to stack Haste / SP without soaring over the hit cap.

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Old 02/27/09, 2:41 PM   #1513
Gravenimage
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Phatpharm View Post
It is predictable in a sense.

Any item with spirit will have two main stats. One spellpower the other Crit/Hit/Haste/MP5

Almost every top-tier item will have three stats, exception is listed above.

There were a few other exceptions, like the Wanton pants, that stacked more spellpower. Itemization used to be that you could shop around and focus on one or two areas. The homogenizing of gear has almost destroyed our ability to do that anymore.

There is a distinct "budget" for every item, some seem a hair low, and some seem over. Anything with sockets seemed to be budgeted with the average available gem, and could easily become better than the same iLevel gear with zero sockets.

With all of the new trends, we have to dismiss any budgeting mechanisms from tBC or earlier.
I'd agree that you can't look to before TBC; the "four years" that I sited was relative. The point is that itemization and fight mechanics didn't drastically change between AQ40 and Naxx (though itemization has obviously changed a great deal if you compare them to now).

Regardless, your first two lines are perfectly accurate and that is my point. We know all the variables, thus predicting the gear we will get is not difficult. I agree with Manly that it can be silly to deal in such absolute terms about something we have not seen, but I also think it is fairer than he seems to think. We could all draft up ideas for the stats we feel will be on the Ulduar 25-man gear and none of us would be very far off.

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Old 02/27/09, 3:57 PM   #1514
ronoridius1
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Bonechewer
Which is better for DPS

3x AB, MBarr, Abarr --> 3x AB, MBarr, Abarr

or

3x AB, MBarr, no Abarr --> 3x AB, MBarr, no Abarr

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Old 02/27/09, 4:20 PM   #1515
Zaldinar
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Mage
 
Arygos
Manly is wary to speak of 'how things will be' both because he's absolutely right in that we can't predict it at all with any degree of certainty, and because what he says tends to get taken as true by a lot of people who lurk these forums (rightly so, a large majority of the time he is right), and to maintain that credibility it behooves him to not partake in musing about how things might be when there's so little information at hand.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://zaldinar.wordpress.com/
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

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