The Arcane thread - Page 115

Storming · 03/24/09, 12:58 PM

I see. My mage has 20k mana though, I rarely have a problem. Isn't the rotation with barrage in it the highest dps rotation? In which case why did the person a few posts above say don't use it?

This should not be hard to sort out, people. It should always be patently clear if item A is better than item B.. if rotation A is better than rotation B.. etc WHEN one is speaking of absolutes. This isn't always the case, no, but in THIS case it is, the subject is absolute highest dps, regardless of any other consideration.

Barring any other issues, isn't the blast stacking WITH barrage the highest dps rotation?

Solisa · 03/24/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Storming

I see. My mage has 20k mana though, I rarely have a problem. Isn't the rotation with barrage in it the highest dps rotation? In which case why did the person a few posts above say don't use it?

This should not be hard to sort out, people. It should always be patently clear if item A is better than item B.. if rotation A is better than rotation B.. etc WHEN one is speaking of absolutes. This isn't always the case, no, but in THIS case it is, the subject is absolute highest dps, regardless of any other consideration.

Barring any other issues, isn't the blast stacking WITH barrage the highest dps rotation?

Regardless of how much mana you have, using less mana will enable higher burn time. It's not "will I run oom if I use barrage", it's "will I be able to gain a substantial DPS increase if I use AM", and the answer is virtually always yes, especially when you can fit that into trinket/heroism/AP/etc uptime.

Storming · 03/24/09, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Solisa

Regardless of how much mana you have, using less mana will enable higher burn time. It's not "will I run oom if I use barrage", it's "will I be able to gain a substantial DPS increase if I use AM", and the answer is virtually always yes, especially when you can fit that into trinket/heroism/AP/etc uptime.

You don't seem to have read what I said. I don't want or need the philosophy, I'm interested in the hard numbers. I will make this easy;

Assume every mage spell has a mana cost of 0. No mana requirement at all. This being the case, what is the highest dps rotation? With barrage, or without? Assuming missile on every single MB proc of course.

I did not ask about mana efficiency, I did not ask about dps comparisons of missile to barrage (proc'd missile is > barrage) and so on. I'm just curious to hear hard numbers on the highest possible dps rotation based on barrage being included.. or not.

♦ nathanbp · 03/24/09, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Storming

I see. My mage has 20k mana though, I rarely have a problem. Isn't the rotation with barrage in it the highest dps rotation? In which case why did the person a few posts above say don't use it?

This should not be hard to sort out, people. It should always be patently clear if item A is better than item B.. if rotation A is better than rotation B.. etc WHEN one is speaking of absolutes. This isn't always the case, no, but in THIS case it is, the subject is absolute highest dps, regardless of any other consideration.

Barring any other issues, isn't the blast stacking WITH barrage the highest dps rotation?

If you want exact answers, use Rawr. It suggests AB3AM sometimes and AB3ABar3MBAM others depending on your gear and latency (mostly on your latency it seems). Using the values from the first post, assuming you end the fight with zero mana, there is minimal difference between using AB3AM and AB3ABar3MBAM as your main cycle (both with AB3Spam3MBAM as your burn cycle).

Edit: The highest dps rotation is AB3Spam3MBAM. This is generally considered to be unsustainable.

Storming · 03/24/09, 1:42 PM

An update for those that haven't read stratfu very carefully, including the idiot that just sent me a forum privmsg;

Mage 3.0.9: simulation results � StratFu

"Compare the dps of ABx3 AM and ABx3 ABr assuming no MBr procs. The initial ABx3 is always the same, and applies the same multiplier, so what you’re really asking is which does more dps: AM or ABr? And the answer is of course ABr[...]"

So this person required extensive simulation to arrive at how you should always use missile if you get a proc. Genius. The question is, always follow up missile with barrage as before, or not? He seems to be suggesting that you use one or the other, and what determines which you use is whether you get a MB proc or not. Ok, proc = missile BUT use a barrage right after it ANYWAY?

The issue isn't exactly clear, to me. I don't think me standing in front of a target dummy can sort this due to normal dmg variance.

Physicist · 03/24/09, 1:44 PM

The optimal cycles are actually very easily changed by talent points and glyphs. Just look at what the arcane missiles glyph did to our cycles!

If you remove three points in incineration for instance, you not only lose a chunk of dps but your cycles change to be AB3C (who remembers that old notation?).

Choices of spells in a rotation cannot be made by just looking at the dps. Of specific spells. I was making the same mistake. Mentalfloss took the time to educate me on the subject. Especially post 314 of this thread.

Cobraprime · 03/24/09, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Storming

Assume every mage spell has a mana cost of 0. No mana requirement at all. This being the case, what is the highest dps rotation? With barrage, or without? Assuming missile on every single MB proc of course.

I did not ask about mana efficiency, I did not ask about dps comparisons of missile to barrage (proc'd missile is > barrage) and so on. I'm just curious to hear hard numbers on the highest possible dps rotation based on barrage being included.. or not.

Your question is answered in the OP under optimal cycles.

AB3AM is slightly lower DPS than casting Ab3Abarr if MBarr doesn't proc. The mana usage difference however is such that the extra mana you save by not casting Abarr is better used in a burn cycle of ABSpamMbarr for better overall DPS.

By casting Abarr you gain slightly more DPS for that cycle, at the expense of much less DPM. As optimal arcane playstyle requires managing DPM to ensure best overall DPS over the length of the whole fight, the AB3AM rotation is considered superiour to casting Abarr.

Sinless · 03/24/09, 2:00 PM

@ Storming: You are right about different situations with different optimal cycles. However, most conclusions regarding Abarr and AM on this thread are based on Rawr, which I think is hands down the best tool for modeling mana based complexity of arcane. Depending on fight duration (very short fights) or latency there might be situations where Rawr or any simulation for that matter can recommend Abarr over AM. But for a typical fight of typical duration, AM would be better not necessarily because it is higher dps but it lets you use your higher dps cycles for a longer period of time.

Zorano · 03/24/09, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

Yes, that is the case and your question has been answered many times in this thread including a detailed explanation in the very first post by Manly. You should only use Abarr when there is movement involved.

Well since you stated Manly said to only use Abarr when moving I must have completely missed it. I am still not seeing it. Here is what I am seeing:

ABx3+ [Mbarr] = 5495dps
ABx3[Mbarr]Abarr = 5132dps w/AP
ABx3AM = 5070dps w/AP
ABx3AM = 5031dps without AP

What I am reading is ABx3[MBarr]Abarr is the highest dps that would be realistic without some source or extra mana regen (ie: Inervate or SP)

Seems Manly thought so also:I am quoting him here

note 2: as far as I am concerned, the top realistic DPS rotation of an arcane mage is the 2nd rotation. The reason being that you will consume mana faster than before due to the increased AP uptime%. Realistically I don't believe you will end up doing much AB spamming barring really short fights.

Now if I am wrong in my understanding of this please enlighten me as I know I do make mistakes on occasion. Please point out in Manly's post where he says ABx3AM is the top DPS rotation there is as I must have missed that detailed explaination.

I guess the answer is if Mana allows me to keep up the ABx3[MBarr]Abarr thru the fight then all is well and it is the best rotation currently. if not bump down to ABx3AM and use Abarr in the rotation during burns.

Soul · 03/24/09, 2:09 PM

A question regarding sustainability: how do you calculate the dps worth of regenerative effects? Specifically, in 3.1, there's a trinket called Spark of Hope.

From past experience with Holy paladins, flat mana cost changes are applied before percentage modifiers to mana cost. When this is applied to Arcane Blast with Spark of Hope, the equivalent mp5 on an ABx3AM cycle from the spell cost modifier alone is about 200 mp5 if you have 2/3 Arcane Focus, 3/3 Precision, 5/5 Clearcasting and 25% spell haste after modifiers. If you have more haste (and nearly any Arcane Mage does), use something like AB3xMbarr/Abarr or use AP, then the equivalent mp5 is higher (much higher in the case of a AB Spam, Mbarr burn). How do we value that? The spirit is worth about 1% crit with glyphed Molten Armor and ~30 mp5 while casting. Is that trinket going to be BiS come 3.1 (possibly in conjunction with Pandora's Plea)

galzohar · 03/24/09, 2:21 PM

If you would actually bothered to use rawr, you'd see that it's better to use some mana on ABspam and AM on procs at 3 stacks when you have a certain combination of cooldowns stacked (mostly AP+stuff) than "upgrade" from AB3-AM to AB3-[MBarr]-ABarr. You still use both rotations though in order to get to exactly 0 mana at the end. Maybe the first post should have a second rotation table with DPS VS MPS when AP is active.

♦ nathanbp · 03/24/09, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Soul

A question regarding sustainability: how do you calculate the dps worth of regenerative effects? Specifically, in 3.1, there's a trinket called Spark of Hope.

From past experience with Holy paladins, flat mana cost changes are applied before percentage modifiers to mana cost. When this is applied to Arcane Blast with Spark of Hope, the equivalent mp5 on an ABx3AM cycle from the spell cost modifier alone is about 200 mp5 if you have 2/3 Arcane Focus, 3/3 Precision, 5/5 Clearcasting and 25% spell haste after modifiers. If you have more haste (and nearly any Arcane Mage does), use something like AB3xMbarr/Abarr or use AP, then the equivalent mp5 is higher (much higher in the case of a AB Spam, Mbarr burn). How do we value that? The spirit is worth about 1% crit with glyphed Molten Armor and ~30 mp5 while casting. Is that trinket going to be BiS come 3.1 (possibly in conjunction with Pandora's Plea)

The dps benefit from mana gains is expressed as the dpm tradeoff. From the first post, you can see that the dpm tradeoff of switching to the AB Spam rotation is ~1.8 (probably closer to 2 in better gear). So 200 mp5 = 40 mps ~= 80 dps. Of course, this is very approximate, since that trinket will change the mana costs of everything.

My gut feeling is that it won't be a great Arcane trinket for 2 reasons. First, it will probably reduce the mana cost of stacked ABs by the flat amount, which is not very impressive. Second, spirit remains a lackluster stat for Arcane.

On a side note, please stop writing AB3-[MBarr]-ABarr or similar notations unless you actually mean to suggest casting an Arcane Barrage every cycle? ([mbarr] or abarr) like manly uses in the first post or the Rawr notation is much more clear.

manly · 03/24/09, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

If you would actually bothered to use rawr, you'd see that it's better to use some mana on ABspam and AM on procs at 3 stacks when you have a certain combination of cooldowns stacked (mostly AP+stuff) than "upgrade" from AB3-AM to AB3-[MBarr]-ABarr. You still use both rotations though in order to get to exactly 0 mana at the end. Maybe the first post should have a second rotation table with DPS VS MPS when AP is active.

I considered it, but the thing is all it ends up doing is mostly reduplicating the same cycles. It will err more towards the cycles having a lot of AB within them due to AP+AB mana cost. But then again, it depends on which cooldowns are used. But most importantly, I strongly doubt the rotations will change much. Of course, the numbers will differ, but as far as actual rotations goes, I wouldn't expect anything major.

Soul · 03/24/09, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by nathanbp

The dps benefit from mana gains is expressed as the dpm tradeoff. From the first post, you can see that the dpm tradeoff of switching to the AB Spam rotation is ~1.8 (probably closer to 2 in better gear). So 200 mp5 = 40 mps ~= 80 dps. Of course, this is very approximate, since that trinket will change the mana costs of everything.

My gut feeling is that it won't be a great Arcane trinket for 2 reasons. First, it will probably reduce the mana cost of stacked ABs by the flat amount, which is not very impressive. Second, spirit remains a lackluster stat for Arcane.

On a side note, please stop writing AB3-[MBarr]-ABarr or similar notations unless you actually mean to suggest casting an Arcane Barrage every cycle? ([mbarr] or abarr) like manly uses in the first post or the Rawr notation is much more clear.

If the trinket behaves like every other flat mana cost reduction in the game, then it will reduce the cost of stacked ABs by 42*(any percantage modifier). Effects that don't act this way - e.g., Illumination - explicitly state that they act on the base cost of the spell.

Anyway, with the spirit giving 32mp5 (assuming 1500 buffed INT), the dps gain of the trinket from mana regen is about 90 dps, with 25% spell haste. The spirit also gives 1.2% crit.

Pandora's Plea, by comparison, gives 136.62 INT after buffs, which translates into 20.5 SP. 850 spell power for 10 seconds (assuming a 45 second ICD) means that the buff will be up a little less than 20% of the time, which means the trinket is good for about 190 SP in total, 2049 mana (50 mp5 if you're Evocating every 2 minutes) and 0.82% crit. With 25% spell haste, the dps gain from a ABx3AM cycle from spellpower is about 120 dps (BEFORE even considering crit), so it looks like the Spark is not BiS and we won't be fighting healers for it.

Omnia · 03/24/09, 3:58 PM

Playing around with Rawr, I calculated the 42mana spellcost reduction of Spark to be equivalent to about 240mp5 on the AB3AM rotation, which converts to about 140dps (with pre-Ulduar BiS gear with full 25man raid buffs). Add to that about 50dps from the 100spi component, and you get a trinket that's definitely not on par with Embrace of the Spider.