The Arcane thread - Page 119

Omnia · 03/26/09, 7:38 PM

Or not. There seems to be a widespread misconception that Fireball is (so far in 3.1) ahead of Arcane, and SimulationCraft is partly to blame for that. I claim they'll be very close to each other, to the point where fight mechanics will tilt the balance. But, the make or break factor for Arcane will be whether or not we can solidly Evo in Ulduar (and it seems we won't, unless they revamp the spell).

renegadeofunk · 03/26/09, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by Omnia

Or not. There seems to be a widespread misconception that Fireball is (so far in 3.1) ahead of Arcane, and SimulationCraft is partly to blame for that. I claim they'll be very close to each other, to the point where fight mechanics will tilt the balance. But, the make or break factor for Arcane will be whether or not we can solidly Evo in Ulduar (and it seems we won't, unless they revamp the spell).

I was under this assumption, even knowing Simulationcraft's limitations when it comes to arcane. Having to evocate 5 times during (presumably) tougher fights than Naxx greatly increases the chance of having your Evocation interrupted which destroys your dps. Has this not been the case on the PTR?

Bladestrom · 03/26/09, 8:18 PM

with the new crit changes, RAWR shows fire pulls slightly ahead of arcane assuming perfect execution of both specs and BIS.

AN-Drona · 03/27/09, 3:11 PM

So the Molten Armor Crit changes have been changed again, with spirit converting to crit rating at 35% for the armor and an additional 20% for the glyph. This means that a mere 393.5 spirit will allow the full 3% bonus from the armor.
While none of this is news, what is interesting is that this makes Student of the Mind a crit bonus while in Molten Armor, especially since the conversion has been boosted. The equation is as follows:

Total spirit*SotM bonus*Molten armor+glyph crit conversion

Spirit*1.12*0.55 = 0.616 or 61.6% of "normal" total spirit as crit rating.

This presents the possibility, with proper gear, to provide a significant bonus to arcane over other specs and something I plan on investigating further once the patch hits. I just wanted to see if any of you had considered this as well.

n0m0j0 · 03/27/09, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by AN-Drona

So the Molten Armor Crit changes have been changed again, with spirit converting to crit rating at 35% for the armor and an additional 20% for the glyph. This means that a mere 393.5 spirit will allow the full 3% bonus from the armor.
While none of this is news, what is interesting is that this makes Student of the Mind a crit bonus while in Molten Armor, especially since the conversion has been boosted. The equation is as follows:

Total spirit*SotM bonus*Molten armor+glyph crit conversion

Spirit*1.12*0.55 = 0.616 or 61.6% of "normal" total spirit as crit rating.

This presents the possibility, with proper gear, to provide a significant bonus to arcane over other specs and something I plan on investigating further once the patch hits. I just wanted to see if any of you had considered this as well.

Since most of the gear upgrades in Ulduar without spirit have a healthy chunk of +hit, I'm anticipating that arcane mages may wind up with a pretty healthy supply spirit, whether they want it or not. BiS gear may continuously put arcane mages way over the hit cap.

The changes for SotM could become an option for dps, although I do not know if it will be enough to warrant pulling talent points out of other abilities. The 57/3/11 spec has very little room for customization as it is, so I'm wondering what talent points you'd sacrifice to get SotM? The trade off might not be worth the points after all, no matter how good the spirit conversation ratio is.

Bladestrom · 03/27/09, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by AN-Drona

This presents the possibility, with proper gear, to provide a significant bonus to arcane over other specs and something I plan on investigating further once the patch hits. I just wanted to see if any of you had considered this as well.

Arcane has no significant bonus over the other specs with regards to the crit change, in fact as Arcane gets lower dps per point of crit it is a disadvantage unless we can convert the extra mana, and the mana return rate is unchanged.

BHZuliss · 03/27/09, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by n0m0j0

Since most of the gear upgrades in Ulduar without spirit have a healthy chunk of +hit, I'm anticipating that arcane mages may wind up with a pretty healthy supply spirit, whether they want it or not. BiS gear may continuously put arcane mages way over the hit cap.

The changes for SotM could become an option for dps, although I do not know if it will be enough to warrant pulling talent points out of other abilities. The 57/3/11 spec has very little room for customization as it is, so I'm wondering what talent points you'd sacrifice to get SotM? The trade off might not be worth the points after all, no matter how good the spirit conversation ratio is.

That's a tough one there. At first I thought maybe switching the 3 in Arcane Med into SotM, but assuming you use molten and its glyph without Arcane Med even with all the spirit in the world your regen in cast would suck. I then considered maybe the 2 from Magic Attunement and one from Arcane Concentration, but the extra range is so useful. I also sort of considered maybe taking 3 from frost (IV and Ice Shards sadly), but everything that I can think of to add SotM to the spec ends seeming to lose more dps than would be gained.

Though, if we really do have enough extra hit from the Ulduar gear, maybe put no points into Arcane Focus, 1 in Subtlety, 4 in Stability(or 2 subtlety/3 stability), and then either leave SotM at 2/3 or take one from Arcane Med and make SotM 3/3.

3/3 SotM http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...0&version=9551

Jaxyl · 03/27/09, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by BHZuliss

That's a tough one there. At first I thought maybe switching the 3 in Arcane Med into SotM, but assuming you use molten and its glyph without Arcane Med even with all the spirit in the world your regen in cast would suck. I then considered maybe the 2 from Magic Attunement and one from Arcane Concentration, but the extra range is so useful. I also sort of considered maybe taking 3 from frost (IV and Ice Shards sadly), but everything that I can think of to add SotM to the spec ends seeming to lose more dps than would be gained.

If you were the over cap your +hit by 1-3%, then you could take the points out of focus and spread them as you have recommended, which would not result in a DPS loss so long as the regen and DPS gained from the extra spirit balanced out the loss of decreased mana cost per arcane spell.

n0m0j0 · 03/27/09, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jaxyl

If you were the over cap your +hit by 1-3%, then you could take the points out of focus and spread them as you have recommended, which would not result in a DPS loss so long as the regen and DPS gained from the extra spirit balanced out the loss of decreased mana cost per arcane spell.

Arcane Focus may indeed be a prime candidate if/when you exceed the hit cap. I'd imagine the bonus spirit mana regen would balance out for the minimal loss of the 3% cost reduction that focus carries as well.

homet · 03/27/09, 5:42 PM

^ I have a raiding talent build that includes 3/3 Incanter's Absorption. It couldn't hurt to pull those off and into SotM. Further, hit considerations will allow us to remove points in Arcane Focus if not optimally-geared. As always, point-for-point itemization will have to be calculated/simulated for most accurate results. However, on its face, despite the lackluster crit-scaling, this almost predicates using Molten Armor and some number of points in SotM.

Champploo · 03/27/09, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

It's very important to read the thread before posting.

Yes, mages are that far behind, except for Arcane; SimulationCraft handles Arcane rotations poorly. Arcane DPS is actually within a couple % of Fire.

You're sure those are accurate? I'd like some more people to comment on it, because it seems somewhat sketchy right now. Clicking the talent build brings you to the LIVE talent tree, and you can click on the PTR tree, but the talent distributions aren't completed.

/skepticism

Astrylian · 03/28/09, 1:03 AM

They're decently correct. Use Rawr v2.2 betas to find more accurate values for mage DPS of each spec, with more optimized gear.

lindian · 03/28/09, 2:09 AM

I have been playing arcane specced for quite sometime now ( 25 man content ). Mostly I follow the AB3ABar3C rotation. Somehow I am unable to cross the 4k dps on patch. I seen other mage posts claiming 6k dps. I think I am missing something here. Here are the links to the last raids Web stats and my armory Armory . I ran an optimization through rawr and got a dps of around 3.5k. Could someone please point out what I am doing wrong. I do use quartz. TIA

cryek · 03/28/09, 4:56 AM

Short answer: you're missing a lot of key buffs and debuffs like imp scorch, a bloodlust, totems and some raid regen. The patchwerk is 3:35 long and you're wearing mage armor. In a two minute kill you'd be wearing molten armor and might not need to evocate, and so on - you can't really compare that chart to your situation.

On a side note, you'll want an orange dmg/haste gem for that shoulder socket, lightweave instead of darkglow embroidery, and if you can afford it the better weapon enchant.

irgendwer · 03/28/09, 7:55 AM

Also drop the 3 points in Student of Minds and put them into Arcane Stability and as cryek already mentioned, start to play with glyphed molten armour.

Change the socket in your belt from orange to 19 spellpower. (u dont need that much hit as arcane, so screw that socketbonus)

Just a sidenote:
The best itemwise change for you would be to change your belt for [Leash of Heedless Magic] and either your wrists for the easy obtainable [Punctilious Bindings], cause it seems your guild just started to down sarth2d, or your boots for [Arcanic Tramplers]. This change will leave u with about 210 hit, which would be exactly 8%. This changes would also prepare you for upcoming 3.1 molten armourchange.