The Arcane thread - Page 12

PantheraOnca · 01/24/09, 1:18 AM

So I've read this entire thread and the talk of how thinly spread points are in concert with the low crit modifier put the thought in my head that maybe the 2 talent points in spellpower are expendible?

They are probably worthwhile once you are hit capped, but I'm thinking from the perspective of my soon to be freshly dinged 80 mage. I won't be hit capped right away and think the points would be better spent in Arcane Focus.

I saw someone mention how much DPS a point in AF is vs. a point in SotM, how much is each point of SP worth?

Omnia · 01/24/09, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by manly

I didn't expect it to work either, given that nochannel usually enforces a check client-side and logically, at that point, you're guaranteed it is done casting on the server. ... The most logical explanation is that it is yet more evidence of the fact that buff/debuffs are delayed, probably because they are queued and processed on a different process.

I think manually hitting Abar when you hear/expect the 5th missile, should do no better than nochanneling Abar spam, since both approaches wait for the client to shoot the 5th missile, by which point the server has already shot it for "a while". Maybe you can get away with hitting Abar 50-100ms before the 5th missile is supposed to shoot, to guarantee a successful combo, but I haven't managed to without clipping.

Originally Posted by PantheraOnca

I saw someone mention how much DPS a point in AF is vs. a point in SotM, how much is each point of SP worth?

Your first priority should be to get to the hitcap of 8%. Before then, each point in AF is worth a lot (several dozens of SP). SotM is only like 15-60 spirit, which is not much SP wise.

sparktoria · 01/24/09, 2:19 AM

Wow Web Stats

this is the WWS for my run tonight.. goofy anonymous WWS FTL. I'm "Horcrux" or something silly on here.

my armory can be found here The World of Warcraft Armory.

my gear isnt the best, but I believe it is on par for what is expected.

i know you guys love parses to pour over!

wyndchill · 01/24/09, 4:49 AM

I downloaded the new Rawr today and it seems to recommend a 53/0/18 build as my best dps choice with current gear/buffs.

I seem to be under the impression that the 18 points in frost talents are being taken solely to get to frost channeling and to grab 3/3 ep on the way.

Is this correct?

My concern being, can I remove piercing ice and ice shards , so that I can give myself a bit of aoe with putting those points into permafrost and improved blizzard?

I realize that the blizzard wont be a powerhouse, but if the other two talents serve use as only filler slots, then I'd like to give myself some trash/solo farming power instead of essentially wasting points.

manly · 01/24/09, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by sparktoria

Wow Web Stats

this is the WWS for my run tonight.. goofy anonymous WWS FTL. I'm "Horcrux" or something silly on here.

my armory can be found here The World of Warcraft Armory.

my gear isnt the best, but I believe it is on par for what is expected.

i know you guys love parses to pour over!

Personally I don't really mind seeing parses but in the end its a bit like rolling dices and giving out the results. In the long run its gets pretty much stale and pointless. But the more annoying part is that it oftens turns into epeen waving and then other people posts theirs too, and slowly it starts feeling like wowforum-level trash.

<insert obligatory wws parse>

Pintofbrew · 01/24/09, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by wyndchill

I downloaded the new Rawr today and it seems to recommend a 53/0/18 build as my best dps choice with current gear/buffs.

I seem to be under the impression that the 18 points in frost talents are being taken solely to get to frost channeling and to grab 3/3 ep on the way.

Is this correct?

My concern being, can I remove piercing ice and ice shards , so that I can give myself a bit of aoe with putting those points into permafrost and improved blizzard?

I realize that the blizzard wont be a powerhouse, but if the other two talents serve use as only filler slots, then I'd like to give myself some trash/solo farming power instead of essentially wasting points.

Piercing Ice and Ice Shards are both irrelevant to single-target Arcane DPS. You may do as you please with them, strictly, the only four things influencing your output are (1) Icy Veins and consequently, (2) Ice Floes. (3) Precision and (4) Frost Channeling, which reduces effective casting cost, not base casting cost.

Note that MoE will refund only on base casting cost, so it'll refund the same mana even if you've specced Precision, Arcane Focus, Frost Channeling, Burnout, have AP active or buffed AB (which all affect the effective casting cost). This makes MoE a vastly inferior tool to use in Arcane spec, compared to Frost Channeling.

Tenspeed · 01/24/09, 5:35 AM

Does quartz mod not help with the timing of Abr since it allows you to predict when the spell has finished casting server side? Or does is it not accurate enough? Pardon me if its a stupid question or has already been asked it just seems like am obvious answer and I'd like to know why it doesn't help more then anything.

Natsunomiko · 01/24/09, 6:22 AM

Hm hello, I have a question and I hope its pertinent.
I am in a raiding guild, and since FFB is so streaky for me Ive decided to try arcane. 57/3/11
My question is... why torment of the weak? Bosses cant be slowed or snared, and I do not have slow to do it on trash mobs (not even worth it.. )
So yeah, Im not getting this. Kinda confused since everyone seems to put points in it.
Any other tips would be apreciated, thanks.

♦ Seonid · 01/24/09, 6:41 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Oddly enough it does work and is somewhat reliable. I didn't expect it to work either, given that nochannel usually enforces a check client-side and logically, at that point, you're guaranteed it is done casting on the server. But despise all of that, it works.

Can confirm it works if at range (small section of a redacted combat log below to show time values) which also shows that it's related to timing and therefore, spell travel time. I found it impossible to replicate at melee range.

1/24 11:21:43.812  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:44.687  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:45.546  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,2188,2187,64,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:46.453  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:47.140  "Arcane Barrage",0x40,5413,5412,64,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:47.312  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

Xmasman · 01/24/09, 6:45 AM

Originally Posted by Natsunomiko

Hm hello, I have a question and I hope its pertinent.
I am in a raiding guild, and since FFB is so streaky for me Ive decided to try arcane. 57/3/11
My question is... why torment of the weak? Bosses cant be slowed or snared, and I do not have slow to do it on trash mobs (not even worth it.. )
So yeah, Im not getting this. Kinda confused since everyone seems to put points in it.
Any other tips would be apreciated, thanks.

Don't u read patchnotes? Snare effect is on boss from skills like thunderclapp, ffb debuff and similar working skills.

Pasture · 01/24/09, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by wyndchill

I downloaded the new Rawr today and it seems to recommend a 53/0/18 build as my best dps choice with current gear/buffs.

I seem to be under the impression that the 18 points in frost talents are being taken solely to get to frost channeling and to grab 3/3 ep on the way.

Is this correct?

My concern being, can I remove piercing ice and ice shards , so that I can give myself a bit of aoe with putting those points into permafrost and improved blizzard?

I realize that the blizzard wont be a powerhouse, but if the other two talents serve use as only filler slots, then I'd like to give myself some trash/solo farming power instead of essentially wasting points.

The 53/0/18 build is only superior to the 57/3/11 build if you can't sustain your rotations due to mana. Most arcane mages are finding they can and thus are speccing 57/3/11 instead.

The 53/0/18 build does have the advantage when it comes to AoE with the improvements to Blizzard, but I'm finding I pull agro almost immediately with it. It's generally much safer to use arcane explosion.

PubaNWO · 01/24/09, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by grayrest

I hate this argument because it's stupid. The whole game is simulated and the system is well understood, if you fail to achieve the predicted results then the failure is almost always in your modeling or your performance rather than in the math.

You can account for all the factors you listed except player skill using the latency variable. You can also account for fight interruptions and other non-casting situations as long as they're predictable. What you can't account for is sub-optimal gameplay.

You will not hit the number you see in rawr, but it's completely possible to consistently hit 95-98% of that number. I did for months in BC and I could consistently look back at a fight and see where I lost that 2-5%. I'm not saying that you should rely on Rawr over personal insight (e.g. I went int gemming instead of SP for 2t5 arcane) but Rawr results are much more predictive than trying it out because it removes the RNG, your group comp that night, and your ability to play a new spec from talent comparisons.

While I appreciate your opinion I just don't agree. The game is dependent on your own play style, skill, and computer hardware as well as the players you are grouped with in the raid.

If an MT can not hold aggro or generate threat fast enough you as a dps mage or any dps for that matter can not effectively dps.

If you are grouped with a shm or moonkin druid who fail to use their mana regen skills on you or for the group then you lose dps also.

And there is no option in RAWR to transform my laptop to a powerhouse gaming desktop with uber graphical and memory specs to enhance hardware latency.

These are things that are not accounted for!

pikinen · 01/24/09, 12:20 PM

My experience with arcane. Before patch I was FFB spec competing for top dps spot with warlock Petee but everything changed after patch with arcane spec I started to dominate dps charts on most boss fights.
First day wws
Wow Web Stats

Second day wws with 6825 dps on Patchwerk
WWS Loading...

PubaNWO · 01/24/09, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by birdy

Because losing mana means losing DPS.

There are ways to regen mana....not all fights are that long either.

Icos · 01/24/09, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by PubaNWO

While I appreciate your opinion I just don't agree. The game is dependent on your own play style, skill, and computer hardware as well as the players you are grouped with in the raid.

If an MT can not hold aggro or generate threat fast enough you as a dps mage or any dps for that matter can not effectively dps.

If you are grouped with a shm or moonkin druid who fail to use their mana regen skills on you or for the group then you lose dps also.

And there is no option in RAWR to transform my laptop to a powerhouse gaming desktop with uber graphical and memory specs to enhance hardware latency.

These are things that are not accounted for!

Theres actually a place you can plug your latency in. Rawr accounts for latency.

Desik™ · 01/24/09, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Seonid

Can confirm it works if at range (small section of a redacted combat log below to show time values) which also shows that it's related to timing and therefore, spell travel time. I found it impossible to replicate at melee range.

1/24 11:21:43.812  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:44.687  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:45.546  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,2188,2187,64,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:46.453  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:47.140  "Arcane Barrage",0x40,5413,5412,64,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/24 11:21:47.312  "Arcane Missiles",0x40,1186,1185,64,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

I can confirm this too ( 100ms/26+yards ), actually addons like eavesdrop or/and MSBT show the ArB hit before the last tick of AM.

galzohar · 01/24/09, 1:35 PM

What exactly is failing at melee range? Getting them to hit in reverse order or getting the glitch to work?

hermallorn · 01/24/09, 1:47 PM

do you think it is worth, in a 25raid , to have 1 mage with a 18 fire/53 frost template to buff both with improved scorch and winter chill and offer some more mana regen? This allows all the other mage to maximise their dps...

Light4 · 01/24/09, 2:02 PM

I have also had unsuccessful combos with the combat log showing ABar hitting before AM(5).

Sojik · 01/24/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by hermallorn

do you think it is worth, in a 25raid , to have 1 mage with a 18 fire/53 frost template to buff both with improved scorch and ice chill and offer some more mana regen? This allows all the other mage to maximise their dps...

...

Winter's Chill?

♦ Seonid · 01/24/09, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

What exactly is failing at melee range? Getting them to hit in reverse order or getting the glitch to work?

I think it's simply a case as the travel time to target is so short, the 5th AM wave hits before the Barrage does which removes the buff as intended.

Runnin · 01/24/09, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by PubaNWO

While I appreciate your opinion I just don't agree. The game is dependent on your own play style, skill, and computer hardware as well as the players you are grouped with in the raid.

If an MT can not hold aggro or generate threat fast enough you as a dps mage or any dps for that matter can not effectively dps.

If you are grouped with a shm or moonkin druid who fail to use their mana regen skills on you or for the group then you lose dps also.

And there is no option in RAWR to transform my laptop to a powerhouse gaming desktop with uber graphical and memory specs to enhance hardware latency.

These are things that are not accounted for!

It has already been stated that RAWR can't account for poor play. This includes a tank not being able to hold aggro (if you have 2 points in subtlety this SHOULD be a non-issue). Shaman/Moonkin regen mechanics are optional in RAWR, so it can account for them not using their abilities on you. There are no differing "play styles" when it comes to dps. There is a correct, max dps rotation that is calculated by RAWR and there are wrong, lower dps rotations. If you aren't using the best rotation that is an issue with you as a player, not with the program. Finally, as a few others have stated before me, RAWR can't transform your laptop into a powerhouse machine, but it can run it's models with your latency problems factored in. I hope this helps you understand the program a bit more.

Icos · 01/24/09, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Runnin

It has already been stated that RAWR can't account for poor play. This includes a tank not being able to hold aggro (if you have 2 points in subtlety this SHOULD be a non-issue). Shaman/Moonkin regen mechanics are optional in RAWR, so it can account for them not using their abilities on you. There are no differing "play styles" when it comes to dps. There is a correct, max dps rotation that is calculated by RAWR and there are wrong, lower dps rotations. If you aren't using the best rotation that is an issue with you as a player, not with the program. Finally, as a few others have stated before me, RAWR can't transform your laptop into a powerhouse machine, but it can run it's models with your latency problems factored in. I hope this helps you understand the program a bit more.

You can actually account for tank threat as well, so if the tanks aren't doing above X TPS, theres a place you can put that in and it will adjust.

Omnia · 01/24/09, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Seonid

Can confirm it works if at range (small section of a redacted combat log below to show time values) which also shows that it's related to timing and therefore, spell travel time. I found it impossible to replicate at melee range.

Are your results from using the [nochanneling] Abar spam, or manually hitting the 5th missile (or both)?

♦ Seonid · 01/24/09, 3:45 PM

That was using the [nochanneling:Arcane Missiles] condition on Barrage only, no attempts at manual clipping of the 5th AM wave.